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2019/01/12 18:43:59
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Regular Dakkanaut
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So what do you lot think of the breakup of the Legions. Was it a good or bad idea?
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Welcome to clown town. |
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2019/01/12 19:05:53
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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I suppose it has worked. There’s been no very big defections of marines since it happened. Was Badab the worst one since?
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Imperial Soup
2200pts/1750 painted
2800pts/1200 painted
2200pts/650 painted
217pts/151 painted |
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2019/01/12 19:28:44
Subject: Re:The breakup of the Legions
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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It was a great idea as it allows every player to come up with their own chapter if they so choose, instead of being stuck with predetermined legions.
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2019/01/12 19:34:11
Subject: Re:The breakup of the Legions
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Fixture of Dakka
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I don't. It's background info that doesn't have any real effect on how I collect, build, or play armies.
I suppose if I were playing 30k & there was some unit markings, squad #ing system, or such unique to the legions I'd incorporate that on the models....
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2019/01/12 19:39:57
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Are we talking meta or in-universe?
Even so, it's regardless, as I think both were the right move.
On a meta level, it lets people have more colours, names, and facets to their guys. In 30k, you pretty much HAVE to be one of 18 legions, or nobodies. In 40k, there's so many guys you could be, you can functionally be anything.
In-universe, it made the most sense for Guilliman to do. As he (and later Cawl) noted, it was the Primarch's influence on their sons that dragged them to heresy. Guilliman's actions of reducing how much power a single person could directly control reduced this - one only has to imagine who could have happened if someone like Huron were to become the Chapter Master of an entire Legion.
As a result, every time a Space Marine commander falls, that's a commander who could have commanded ten times as many men.
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They/them
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2019/01/12 19:51:24
Subject: Re:The breakup of the Legions
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Given the threat/nature of chaos, the IOM in general essentially has to divide up who does what into smaller chunks. The space marine legions are the biggest example of this but they were far from the only institution to be split up. Pretty much the only times when one person had near complete control of everything working out well is the Emperor during the original crusade and the two times Bobby G essentially had to appoint himself supreme commander because no one else was around for the task. The rest of the Time it has lead to some bad things.
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2019/01/12 20:17:23
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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Game wise it was pretty smart of an idea so that creative players could paint the troops as they want and still be completely inline with the setting expanding it in their own way. I am kinda a little surprised with non-historical miniatures games actually mention something as being a way that forces the player to conform to a painting color or scheme. When much of this hobby can be the painting part.
A minor example is the Orks aka Greenskins. While few players are going to balk at red, blue or fleshing pink orks, they don't fit the settings greenskins that don't like anything not orky. Again, it is minor, and I am sure there are other games with far more controlling painting confines to match the setting than that. I just can't think of any at the moment.
Strategically, I don't really think it was that good an idea at least in the how much the Codex Astartes broke the chapters up. I mean if you multiple max chapter size by 10 or more it doesn't seem nearly as bad. But 1000 marines seem ridiculous as that number seems difficult to maintain operation in a single system, or planet for that matter, let alone a subsector. Additionally, it would stupid easy for entire chapters to just disappear from the records in one way or another given the size of the galaxy and the bureaucracy of the Administratum.
So while the IoM doen't lose large chunks of itself to Chaos or a charismatic overlord all at once; I am confident that it causes more marines to be forever lost to the IoM over same amount of time because of it.
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2019/01/12 20:27:15
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Sgt_Smudge wrote:Are we talking meta or in-universe?
Even so, it's regardless, as I think both were the right move.
On a meta level, it lets people have more colours, names, and facets to their guys. In 30k, you pretty much HAVE to be one of 18 legions, or nobodies. In 40k, there's so many guys you could be, you can functionally be anything.
In-universe, it made the most sense for Guilliman to do. As he (and later Cawl) noted, it was the Primarch's influence on their sons that dragged them to heresy. Guilliman's actions of reducing how much power a single person could directly control reduced this - one only has to imagine who could have happened if someone like Huron were to become the Chapter Master of an entire Legion.
As a result, every time a Space Marine commander falls, that's a commander who could have commanded ten times as many men.
Both I agree as for the gameplay it’s a great idea. But the lore side of things the breakup of the Legions am not decided yet.
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Welcome to clown town. |
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2019/01/12 20:46:12
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
Newcastle
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I would have preferred if the main legions remained as legions, but the second founding were actual chapters. Perhaps a bit larger than 1000 but it doesn't matter much. That way there's plenty of scope for home brew chapters (including CSM) but the vastly more popular legions remain as they were. Are there only meant to be 1000 Ultramarines in the current setting? That's absurdly small for the amount they actually do in the current fluff
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Hydra Dominatus |
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2019/01/13 10:28:22
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer
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In-universe, it was a paranoid over-reaction that's probably caused more harm than help. As well as prove to be ineffective, as Bobby G. put it in place to prevent one man from gaining such overwhelming control - only to return and do just that.
Metawise, it's a fantastic idea to allow for customization - though in many cases folks could have still done the customizations to represent a special division within the legion or even "war colors" for a specific campaign.
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It never ends well |
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2019/01/13 14:02:57
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Stormonu wrote:In-universe, it was a paranoid over-reaction that's probably caused more harm than help. As well as prove to be ineffective, as Bobby G. put it in place to prevent one man from gaining such overwhelming control - only to return and do just that.
I'd say it worked exactly as he planned!
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2019/01/13 14:08:39
Subject: Re:The breakup of the Legions
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
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HoundsofDemos wrote:Given the threat/nature of chaos, the IOM in general essentially has to divide up who does what into smaller chunks. The space marine legions are the biggest example of this but they were far from the only institution to be split up. Pretty much the only times when one person had near complete control of everything working out well is the Emperor during the original crusade and the two times Bobby G essentially had to appoint himself supreme commander because no one else was around for the task. The rest of the Time it has lead to some bad things.
Goge Vandire says hello!
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Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. |
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2019/01/13 15:38:44
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Norn Queen
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Dorn did nothing wrong and Rowboat was a moron. To quote the Manperor of Mankind, he turned the Imperium's mighty bulwark into a rotting picket fence. Automatically Appended Next Post: Crimson wrote: Stormonu wrote:In-universe, it was a paranoid over-reaction that's probably caused more harm than help. As well as prove to be ineffective, as Bobby G. put it in place to prevent one man from gaining such overwhelming control - only to return and do just that.
I'd say it worked exactly as he planned!
Rowboat Girlyman confirmed for Alpharius.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/13 15:39:33
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2019/01/13 15:50:49
Subject: Re:The breakup of the Legions
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:HoundsofDemos wrote:Given the threat/nature of chaos, the IOM in general essentially has to divide up who does what into smaller chunks. The space marine legions are the biggest example of this but they were far from the only institution to be split up. Pretty much the only times when one person had near complete control of everything working out well is the Emperor during the original crusade and the two times Bobby G essentially had to appoint himself supreme commander because no one else was around for the task. The rest of the Time it has lead to some bad things.
Goge Vandire says hello!
and the head of the officio assassinorum
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2019/01/13 18:01:18
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Snake Tortoise wrote:I would have preferred if the main legions remained as legions, but the second founding were actual chapters. Perhaps a bit larger than 1000 but it doesn't matter much. That way there's plenty of scope for home brew chapters (including CSM) but the vastly more popular legions remain as they were. Are there only meant to be 1000 Ultramarines in the current setting? That's absurdly small for the amount they actually do in the current fluff
To be fair, a lot of why there's so many Ultramarine accounts is because that a lot of their famous battles are taken from a very long history of service to the Imperium. Beyond that, they have been at the centre of quite a few radical changes lately (the Plague Wars, Guilliman's return, the Primaris Marines), and generally, I'm of the opinion that other Chapters do just as much as the Ultramarines, but we don't hear about the courageous acts of the Hawk Lords as much as we do the main ones.
Stormonu wrote:In-universe, it was a paranoid over-reaction that's probably caused more harm than help. As well as prove to be ineffective, as Bobby G. put it in place to prevent one man from gaining such overwhelming control - only to return and do just that.
To be fair, the political situation had changed drastically, and the High Lords were frankly inept at their job. Considering that, even with the Imperium being still in dire straits, Guilliman's return and his very fast reforms and bolstering of the Imperium has staunched the bleeding.
Taking authority to guarantee stability and the best way of life for your people is very pragmatic, and Guilliman has been portrayed as utterly pragmatic well in the HH series.
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They/them
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2019/01/14 05:43:40
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer
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Sgt_Smudge wrote:Snake Tortoise wrote:I would have preferred if the main legions remained as legions, but the second founding were actual chapters. Perhaps a bit larger than 1000 but it doesn't matter much. That way there's plenty of scope for home brew chapters (including CSM) but the vastly more popular legions remain as they were. Are there only meant to be 1000 Ultramarines in the current setting? That's absurdly small for the amount they actually do in the current fluff
To be fair, a lot of why there's so many Ultramarine accounts is because that a lot of their famous battles are taken from a very long history of service to the Imperium. Beyond that, they have been at the centre of quite a few radical changes lately (the Plague Wars, Guilliman's return, the Primaris Marines), and generally, I'm of the opinion that other Chapters do just as much as the Ultramarines, but we don't hear about the courageous acts of the Hawk Lords as much as we do the main ones.
Stormonu wrote:In-universe, it was a paranoid over-reaction that's probably caused more harm than help. As well as prove to be ineffective, as Bobby G. put it in place to prevent one man from gaining such overwhelming control - only to return and do just that.
To be fair, the political situation had changed drastically, and the High Lords were frankly inept at their job. Considering that, even with the Imperium being still in dire straits, Guilliman's return and his very fast reforms and bolstering of the Imperium has staunched the bleeding.
Taking authority to guarantee stability and the best way of life for your people is very pragmatic, and Guilliman has been portrayed as utterly pragmatic well in the HH series.
Many tyrants throughout history have been "pragmatic" and "stepped in to stop the hemmoraging" - it's what happens once the dust (or beheadings) starts to settle that things really go off the rails.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/14 05:44:27
It never ends well |
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2019/01/14 17:30:25
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The utter moron who failed to hold Terra despite having supposedly greatest fortress ever (laughs in Perturabo) and Horus having nowhere near 10:1 force ratio usually needed to storm even a gakky fortress, never mind a good one, who let Mars fall to Chaos despite having years to retake it and all the resources of the largest fleet/army in the Galaxy right there, who managed to comically lose crucial, Heresy-tipping battle of Phall despite not even being there, who fell for laughably obvious "this is totes not a trap" installation Perturabo cobbled together in a week (why Perty wasn't asked to make Imperial Palace, again?) and was on best way to pointlessly lose one whole loyal legion for nothing until Robby G rescued his arse?
With the amount of fail Dorn did during HH, fail that nearly let Horus win, and then even more fail that pretty much doomed IoM (Emperor would never go for boarding Horus flagship if certain moron was capable of defending the Palace as promised) I am frankly shocked that after his temper tantrum that nearly started Civil War 2.0 the other primarchs just didn't shot him for incompetence before he messed up things even more
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2019/01/14 17:38:06
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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If the legions had not broken up the imperium would be in tatters, especially with how many rebellions there have been in the imperium. With the break up of the legions also came the break up of the imperial guard, navy, titan legions, knight houses, etc. It was decentralization that actually helped the imperium survive.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2019/01/16 10:57:20
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
Hanoi, Vietnam.
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Were Dorn & Guilliman the only loyalist Primarchs left at the time of the second founding?
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2019/01/16 18:06:47
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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Irbis wrote: The utter moron who failed to hold Terra despite having supposedly greatest fortress ever (laughs in Perturabo) and Horus having nowhere near 10:1 force ratio usually needed to storm even a gakky fortress, never mind a good one, who let Mars fall to Chaos despite having years to retake it and all the resources of the largest fleet/army in the Galaxy right there, who managed to comically lose crucial, Heresy-tipping battle of Phall despite not even being there, who fell for laughably obvious "this is totes not a trap" installation Perturabo cobbled together in a week (why Perty wasn't asked to make Imperial Palace, again?) and was on best way to pointlessly lose one whole loyal legion for nothing until Robby G rescued his arse? With the amount of fail Dorn did during HH, fail that nearly let Horus win, and then even more fail that pretty much doomed IoM (Emperor would never go for boarding Horus flagship if certain moron was capable of defending the Palace as promised) I am frankly shocked that after his temper tantrum that nearly started Civil War 2.0 the other primarchs just didn't shot him for incompetence before he messed up things even more You mean the Primarch that managed to hold Terra long enough that Horus had to make a critical error? Who's goal was to hold Terra long enough for the other Legions to come and break the Siege? The man who recognized that retaking Mars would leave Imperial Forces severely crippled when Horus made his way to Terra and rightly opted to Blockade the Planet? The man who's Legion forced the Iron Warriors to a draw with out him having been there? The Legion that reminded Perturabo that he was in Dorn's shadow? Yeah that Dorn.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/16 18:07:12
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2019/01/16 18:11:09
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ginjitzu wrote:Were Dorn & Guilliman the only loyalist Primarchs left at the time of the second founding?
No. Unless they retcon things, it was Dorn, Gullimen, Russ, Corax, the Khan and possibly Vulkan. I'm a little iffy on Lion, as I'm not sure how soon after the HH he went back to Caliban.
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2019/01/16 18:14:42
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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You mean the Primarch that managed to hold Terra long enough that Horus had to make a critical error? Who's goal was to hold Terra long enough for the other Legions to come and break the Siege? The man who recognized that retaking Mars would leave Imperial Forces severely crippled when Horus made his way to Terra and rightly opted to Blockade the Planet? The man who's Legion forced the Iron Warriors to a draw with out him having been there? The Legion that reminded Perturabo that he was in Dorn's shadow? Yeah that Dorn.
People don't read the Horus Heresy books and base their understanding on older lore that is surprisingly no-longer relevant.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2019/01/17 03:48:39
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
Hanoi, Vietnam.
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HoundsofDemos wrote: Ginjitzu wrote:Were Dorn & Guilliman the only loyalist Primarchs left at the time of the second founding?
No. Unless they retcon things, it was Dorn, Gullimen, Russ, Corax, the Khan and possibly Vulkan. I'm a little iffy on Lion, as I'm not sure how soon after the HH he went back to Caliban.
It's just that people always seem to "blame" Guilliman for the breakup and "credit" Dorn for resisting, but no one ever seems to mention the other Primarchs. I wonder why they always seem to get a free pass during these discussions.
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2019/01/17 03:57:01
Subject: Re:The breakup of the Legions
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Second Story Man
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Well, there was some thoughts on it during the Dornian Heresy.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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2019/01/17 04:06:14
Subject: Re:The breakup of the Legions
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dorn was one of several that reacted poorly to Bobby G's reforms. He was the only one that was willing to come to blows over it but I believe he relented after he walked his legion in the Iron warriors trap, had to have the Ultramarines bail him out and barely had a legion left after that point.
To be fair, most of the first founding Legions have largely sidestepped the spirit of rules if not the outright intent.
The space wolves basic ignored it, and no one really did anything about.
The Dark Angels basically didn't break up and are still secretly a united legion. Dorn also left plans for the Firsts to do the same.
Both the Ultramarines and Blood Angels have a lot of influence over many of there successors.
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2019/01/17 08:18:57
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot
Hanoi, Vietnam.
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In that case, I'd have to say the breakup was a good idea. As Hounds points out, most of the First chapters still maintain very close relations with their successors, meaning that if needs be, they still have the means to bring large strength, combined arms forces to bear, while still maintaining a safety net of each chapter master having the discretion to withhold his forces should he deem the intended action to be in some way heretical.
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2019/01/23 08:24:21
Subject: Re:The breakup of the Legions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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HoundsofDemos wrote:Dorn was one of several that reacted poorly to Bobby G's reforms. He was the only one that was willing to come to blows over it but I believe he relented after he walked his legion in the Iron warriors trap, had to have the Ultramarines bail him out and barely had a legion left after that point.
To be fair, most of the first founding Legions have largely sidestepped the spirit of rules if not the outright intent.
The space wolves basic ignored it, and no one really did anything about.
The Dark Angels basically didn't break up and are still secretly a united legion. Dorn also left plans for the Firsts to do the same.
Both the Ultramarines and Blood Angels have a lot of influence over many of there successors.
This is kind of the crux of the problem; I personally think Guilliman had the right idea but nobody... did the thing. Like, at all, really. If a First Founding Chapter Master like Calgar had fallen to Chaos I'd expect him to take most of the Ultramarines successors with him because the successor chapters aren't really as split from the Ultramarines as they're supposed to be.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/23 08:24:52
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2019/01/23 09:00:47
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought
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In universe it makes perfect sense, the Imperium is no longer on the expansion but on the defensive footing for much of its existence. A legion is useful for concentrated applications of force but is ultimately worthless for a defensive affair where a legion can only be in a couple places at once and have any degree of effectiveness.
Chapters meanwhile are ideal for defending wide swaths of territory; endlessly roaming across the galaxy to swoop in and aid in some campaign as a hail mary to the guard. They aren't as well suited for concentrated expansionist pushes, but that's something the Imperium hasn't really done in a long time. Plus the Guard has demonstrated itself capable of such in the Manchurian Crusade.
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“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” |
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2019/01/23 09:02:14
Subject: The breakup of the Legions
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
Watch Fortress Excalibris
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If a First Founding Chapter Master like Calgar had fallen to Chaos I'd expect him to take most of the Ultramarines successors with him because the successor chapters aren't really as split from the Ultramarines as they're supposed to be.
Ehh... not really. Some UM successors would follow him (the well-known 2nd Founding ones probably). But IIRC around 2/3rds of all current SM chapters in the 41st millennium are UM successors and most don't have any significant ties to their parent chapter. Some don't even know for certain that they are UM successors.
Anyway, there is a big difference between being given suspiciously heretical-sounding orders by the leader of another force you feel strong kinship with (and whom you might ordinarily defer to), and being given those orders by someone you have personally sworn an oath to obey (where it's arguably treason no matter which choice you make).
Lufgt Huron's allies (the Lamenters, Mantis Warriors, etc.) surrendered to loyalist forces once they realised they'd been led into heresy. His own Astral Claws did not. That's the difference breaking up the legions made. Imagine if all those Lamenter and Mantis Warrior marines had instead been additional Astral Claw marines.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/23 09:02:46
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. |
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