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Would they show up as a detachment of Blood Angels (in Blood Angels livery?) or would they show up already in Lamenters colors?

I ask for the background question since the Lamenters did not exist while Cawl was playing genetic reindeer games and I am making the assumption that the successor chapters would get their Primaris marines through their original Chapters.

I also ask because the Primaris squad I got for Christmas are in Blood Angels armor, and I don't want to sand down their shoulder markings before I actually paint them. If I keep them as Blood Angels seconded to the Lamenters as their first-ish reinforcements in a hundred (?) years.

The visual would be really striking of a squad of Sternguard Lamenters, a Calix with a Chaplain helmet, 3 Death Company Brothers, and a Primaris squad in Blood Angels livery. I don't know...what say you dakkanaughts?

-STS

if given the the lamenters they would repaint their armor yes.

It really depends on the circumstances of the reinforcements. I think from the Crimson Fists' example, it seems Guiliman likes to paint up the reinforcements in their new chapter's livery to add that personal touch, but prior to that happening said reinforcements would be members of the Unnumbered Sons and would have had the traditional colour scheme of the founding chapter.

That said, I imagine the blood angels bits and pieces on the upgrade sprue are added by the chapters afterwards, you also shouldn't need any of them to build the primaris marine kits themselves.

Hmm, funny I just decided to start a Lamenters army and I was wondering about Primaris Marines too.

I think you should paint them as Blood Angels because I simply don't think the Lamenters would be so lucky as to get any Primaris reinforcements. The Lamenters did not, as far as I have researched them, send aid to Baal when Dante recalled all the BA Successors. There could be any number of reasons for this but the main point is that the Lamenters were not present when Guilliman and Cawl arrived and unfroze the reinforcements.

Also the Lamenters are 21st Founding and came much later than when Cawl would have been making Primaris Marines. There is also the matter of their Penitent Crusade. No recruitment means no new guys, period. So if someone is making Lamenters of any stripe that would be a direct contravention of the law. Sure the Blood Angels could simply make Primaris Marines using Lamenters gene-seed, which remember is different from Blood Angels, but they wouldn't be allowed to reinforce their Successors at all with them. It would be far more likely that any Blood Angels sent to help the Lamenters would be just that, Blood Angels.

Now this isn't some sort of anti-Primaris rant, I actually like the new line but I just don't see the Lamenters getting lucky like that. I mean, I can see just about any Chapter getting Primaris reinforcements well ahead of the Lamenters based solely on the Imperium being a-holes and hating on them for x reason.

That being said, I think Blood Angels and Lamenters would make for a very visually appealing army. Plus you wouldn't have to worry about detachments or allies or any of that stuff if you didn't want to. Same Codex, same army basically, you could just add in whatever Blood Angels you wanted.

This would also be a good way to get around the Lamenters not having very many Baal Predators, Land Raiders or Terminators. Just paint em red! Haha!


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Also you should take my advice with a grain of salt because I intend to run my Lamenters using the regular SM Codex so we may have differing views on the Lamenters lore! I've also just discovered them as a Chapter and only know what it says about them on the interwebs. So I could be waaay off!

They would take on the Lamenters colourscheme and livery as part of their integration into the chapter.

 darkcloak wrote:
There is also the matter of their Penitent Crusade. No recruitment means no new guys, period. So if someone is making Lamenters of any stripe that would be a direct contravention of the law.

I don't know about Devastation of Baal, but the Dark Imperium novel is stated to take place in the 112th year of the Indomitus Crusade, since the Penitent Crusade had 13 years left at the outset of the 13th Black Crusade that means it's been over for about a century.

The only Lamenter pictured in the current Codex is a Primaris.

 darkcloak wrote:
No recruitment means no new guys, period. So if someone is making Lamenters of any stripe that would be a direct contravention of the law.

At the moment, the Lex Imperialis is whatever the Imperial Regent says it is. Penitent Crusade or no, if Roboute Guilliman wants to assign Primaris Marines to the Lamenters Chapter, he will do so.

I'm still not sold, sorry. Not enough to change my own army composition plan anyways! Haha!

The Badab War ended in 913, but we have no idea how long it took for the investigation to take place, when it took place or when exactly the Lamenters left on their Crusade. It could have been another ten years before the Lamenters imprisoned on the moon of Sagan even saw an interrogation. So they could in fact have a few years of Crusading left. I just don't see how within 1 year the Imperium is able to put together a case. Imperium bureaucratic BS is never speedy.

Sure Rowboat gets to do whatever he wants, foreshadowing much? Lol. But when there are plenty of other Chapters needing Primaris Marines why would Guilliman put the Lamenters on that list before anyone else? Especially after the Lamenters snubbed the Ultras by refusing an Iron Halo. Especially when they have the reputation as a Cursed Founding Chapter. Plus, good thing don't happen to Lamenters. If they do get Primaris reinforcements then they're all going to die in a fiery drop p... Repulsor collision. Or get lost in the Warp again, or get nommed by Nids.

But hey, like I said this is just my own personal views on the Lamenters and how I see them in the lore. I'm certainly not saying you can't do what you want with your armies. The OP wanted to paint his dudes red so I decided to share some of my thoughts on why he could do that.

Also the picture of the Lamenter in the Codex is more than likely a Primaris Marine because they wanted more P-Marines in the book than regular Marines. I do not think when they did that section there was a whole lot of discussion as to which Chapters had Primaris and which didn't. I imagine it was more like, hey let's just do all our example marine pics with Primaris because that's what we are trying to sell. I would not take that one picture as hard proof on its own. That pic does give us some other hints about the Lamenters but that is another topic.

Again though, it's called Your Dudes for a reason and if you want to have Lamenters with or without Primaris that's your choice. I think the only thing that's really important is your checkerboard being even and square!

I mean you can always set your dudes at a particular year

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I mean you can always set your dudes at a particular year

Yeah this is true too. Pretty sure you could make some cool Badab era armies with the new rules. Astral Claws and the Tyrant Legion for example. Anyways.

I suppose it is possible the Lamenters got some reinforcements, but probably not a lot. If they did though the new guys would probably be so rare that you wouldn't see them much on a regular game basis. Sort of like how Terminators only get used for really important missions.

I know it seems silly to argue that a picture of a space marine isn't proof of a space marine but... There is also a picture of a guy named Sherlock floating around somewhere too right? All I'm saying is GW might not have made that picture necessarily because of any lore reason. But I guess they can always make the lore match the marketing.

I just like to talk about lore. Lamenters are an army I'm doing right now so I figured I'd say what I had to think about their Primaris situation. If anyone has read any books about them or where they were mentioned and has anything to add I'd love to hear it.

I tend to assume if a chapter exists in canon it will have Primaris

 darkcloak wrote:

The Badab War ended in 913, but we have no idea how long it took for the investigation to take place, when it took place or when exactly the Lamenters left on their Crusade. It could have been another ten years before the Lamenters imprisoned on the moon of Sagan even saw an interrogation. So they could in fact have a few years of Crusading left. I just don't see how within 1 year the Imperium is able to put together a case. Imperium bureaucratic BS is never speedy.

Yes, we do. Whilst as you say the Imperium and it's courts are monolithically slow, the rebel chapters weren't tried by the Imperial courts but by an Astartes Consistorial Court in 913.M41 - see Imperial Armour 10 page 54. According to the timeline in Imperial Armour 2 second edition (page 22) the Red Hunters were tasked with shadowing the Penitent Chapter's fleets in 915.M41.

 darkcloak wrote:
But when there are plenty of other Chapters needing Primaris Marines why would Guilliman put the Lamenters on that list before anyone else?

Option 1: He doesn't trust them and wants loyal Primaris on the inside to Order 66 the them if necessary.
Option 2: He does trust them and doesn't want them to die out, as is highly likely given their already near-extinct state.

I have it here they were sentenced to their 100-year penitent crusade of 912M41. That said, of the 311 that departed, contact was officially lost when they fought the Kraken 20 years later, I don't know of any official lore of their return, but it is 200 years later; who knows.

Honestly, you could quite easily field BA-legionary primaris, all in their clean black, red and gold finery like the Maximus armour of the old Legion days, brand new reinforcements right as the Lamenters meet up with them and deploy together to the heat of battle or the checkered and yellow of fully adopted marines.

could also assume the old lamenters where destroyed and the hereldry was reused for a new ultama founding chapter

Having another look at what's available online I found a timeline that places the Lamenters surrender to Imperial forces during the Badab War at 908 or 912. By the war's end in 913 they were sentenced to a Penitent Crusade, so the statement that in the current timeline the Lamenters are finished crusading is correct. So I suppose they would have an opportunity to recruit new troops, but the most recent lore still leaves the Lamenters lost somewhere in space with only about 3 companies. I reread the relevant parts of Codex Blood Angels but couldn't find a clear cut answer as to which Successors were present at Baal. You'd think that the Chapter that always gets special mention for being half extinct would get a specific shout out as being reinforced if that was what happened. Instead all we get is 'got eaten by Kraken, Chapter Master says Lamenters are a-okay' and that's really not enough information.

I even went and read up on the Red Hunters to see if they mention the Lamenters any further but aside from some interesting tidbits about the Mantis Warriors there simply wasn't any new info regarding the Lamenters post Hive Fleet Kraken.


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I also read about Hive Fleet Kraken to see if I could get any info on where and when they fought the Lamenters, but sadly found nothing relevant there either.

I have to say that this is my favorite part of the lore in 40k/HH. It's so incomplete and often contradictory that it becomes a sort of game to try and piece together any sort of history for a given Chapter or group. I quite enjoy this, especially when I'm able to learn something new from it.

An interesting idea about Guilliman and trusting the Lamenters. I think Guilliman would probably trust the Lamenters since he seems able to make judgements based on more than rumour and the Lamenters do have a better than average battle record. But I think he would be the only one willing to give them the time of day. Dante also seems pretty keen on the Lamenters survival since he has been trying to find them recently, but outside of these two? Nada.

One potential situation I could see happening. The Lamenters do survive and get reinforced. Dante and Guilliman both praise them and try to publicly erase any doubts about the Lamenters. Maybe they get offered another Iron Halo or something like that that gets noticed by other Astartes. Hooray for the Lamenters, but wait. Their accolades turn bitter and all that is accomplished is that the Lamenters become viewed as having won an honour they didn't deserve. Cue moar fratricide and the Lamenters are back to square one. Three hundred dudes just trying to die for the ones they cherish.

I realize I'm just rambling on about Lamenters now. But oh well.

Never mind canon: they are your property, do as you please. If you think it will look good and you'll enjoy the project, go for it.

slade the sniper wrote:
Would they show up as a detachment of Blood Angels (in Blood Angels livery?) or would they show up already in Lamenters colors?

I ask for the background question since the Lamenters did not exist while Cawl was playing genetic reindeer games and I am making the assumption that the successor chapters would get their Primaris marines through their original Chapters.

I also ask because the Primaris squad I got for Christmas are in Blood Angels armor, and I don't want to sand down their shoulder markings before I actually paint them. If I keep them as Blood Angels seconded to the Lamenters as their first-ish reinforcements in a hundred (?) years.

The visual would be really striking of a squad of Sternguard Lamenters, a Calix with a Chaplain helmet, 3 Death Company Brothers, and a Primaris squad in Blood Angels livery. I don't know...what say you dakkanaughts?

-STS