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So, been thinking about Orks in the competitive aspect. In particular how to build lists that don't bleed points through the secondary objectives and can also accomplish said objectives. I feel it's a given that we're going to be handing the enemy The Reaping, we just have so many models that are flimsy. But on the other hand a lot of our units would easily be options for Marked for Death, Big Game Hunter and we'll often have units that you can easily achieve Butchers Bill with.

Other lists I've faced from Chaos and Imperium have been crafted specifically to be a pain in the arse to gain points from, either using durable vehicles, small, tough units, etc. Obviously one can simply go all infantry, try to have big, chunky units that cover space and take a decent amount of time to die, but that tends to make you more susceptible to debuffs and target unit buffs that make our units a breeze to remove.

What are your thoughts? Would MSU ork boyz work well? Or 20 man units? With the codex being out for a while maybe people have other experiences they'd like to share in tournaments.

I have thought about this alot since LVO. I dont think the loota bomb is the way forward, and also I found the big squad of meganobz not on par. I have not tried mek gunz but i believe they would be a good long range support. I think the core of a strong list would be several squads of 30 boyz with 3 weird boyz spamming smite. This could actually put out a lot of wounds with the +to cast from the boyz,and could be our only way of dealing with death stars.however the new vindicare rules have probably invalidated this strategy so I'm not sure there are any strong viable ork army builds left to make...

MSU Ork Boyz do not wok well at all, nor do 20 man units. You lose 1 Boy in the squad of 20 and their damage output is cut by a quarter.

Simply put I don't think there's a way to deny your opponent the secondaries you're talking about. We're a glass cannon army that lacks a real cannon outside of Da Jumped Boyz.

Lootas are far too easy to counter and kill without Grot Shields and they are a massive CP sink. Meganobz lack an invulnerable and are T4 which makes them susceptible to small arms and higher powered weaponry. Even Weird Boyz are going to struggle in the Sniper/Assassin meta were moving towards. Same with the SAG Mek. Its no good spending 4 CP on a specific detachment, relic and shoot again stratagem when he's dead in a turn or 2 tops.

In my experience, without our buffing characters our army is garbage. The problem is that our buffing characters are trivial to remove. T4, 4W and a 6+/4+ save is trash.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
MSU Ork Boyz do not wok well at all, nor do 20 man units. You lose 1 Boy in the squad of 20 and their damage output is cut by a quarter.

Simply put I don't think there's a way to deny your opponent the secondaries you're talking about. We're a glass cannon army that lacks a real cannon outside of Da Jumped Boyz.

Lootas are far too easy to counter and kill without Grot Shields and they are a massive CP sink. Meganobz lack an invulnerable and are T4 which makes them susceptible to small arms and higher powered weaponry. Even Weird Boyz are going to struggle in the Sniper/Assassin meta were moving towards. Same with the SAG Mek. Its no good spending 4 CP on a specific detachment, relic and shoot again stratagem when he's dead in a turn or 2 tops.

In my experience, without our buffing characters our army is garbage. The problem is that our buffing characters are trivial to remove. T4, 4W and a 6+/4+ save is trash.

I use meganobz alot and their durability is not the issue. Sure alot of people think they should be T5 but whenever I use them they wade through fire and attacks. Inv is not necessary when you have 2+sv (unless you have something silly line 4++ or better inv like custodes or dark eldar). Their issue is their dmg. Like 10 of them can not even reliably kill a single leman russ.

This is because they have big 40mm bases, - 1 to hit, and terrible d3 dmg. Its depressing to face knights, wave serpents or talos and when you charge and attack you barely scrape their paintjob with the meganobs. Their speed is also an issue.

Gitdakka wrote:

I use meganobz alot and their durability is not the issue. Sure alot of people think they should be T5 but whenever I use them they wade through fire and attacks. Inv is not necessary when you have 2+sv (unless you have something silly line 4++ or better inv like custodes or dark eldar). Their issue is their dmg. Like 10 of them can not even reliably kill a single leman russ.

Umm with power klaws you average 16 wounds and spare. With kill saws 26.6666.

How is that not reliable? You want automatic deletion? Especially with kill saws you average TWO dead russ.

Now could they be killier sure but let's not exaggerate and claim 10 won't kill even russ when simple math shows that's false.

tneva82 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

I use meganobz alot and their durability is not the issue. Sure alot of people think they should be T5 but whenever I use them they wade through fire and attacks. Inv is not necessary when you have 2+sv (unless you have something silly line 4++ or better inv like custodes or dark eldar). Their issue is their dmg. Like 10 of them can not even reliably kill a single leman russ.

Umm with power klaws you average 16 wounds and spare. With kill saws 26.6666.

How is that not reliable? You want automatic deletion? Especially with kill saws you average TWO dead russ.

Now could they be killier sure but let's not exaggerate and claim 10 won't kill even russ when simple math shows that's false.

I don't want to speak for him but I think his point is that due to their speed and base size they rarely all make combat which hurts their damage output significantly. I can attest to this also.

tneva82 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

I use meganobz alot and their durability is not the issue. Sure alot of people think they should be T5 but whenever I use them they wade through fire and attacks. Inv is not necessary when you have 2+sv (unless you have something silly line 4++ or better inv like custodes or dark eldar). Their issue is their dmg. Like 10 of them can not even reliably kill a single leman russ.

Umm with power klaws you average 16 wounds and spare. With kill saws 26.6666.

How is that not reliable? You want automatic deletion? Especially with kill saws you average TWO dead russ.

Now could they be killier sure but let's not exaggerate and claim 10 won't kill even russ when simple math shows that's false.

Well lets say power klaws, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds, 8 go through saves. Thats 16 dmg. But you have to go through overwatch, or try to squeeze 10 models into combat with poor movement, so we'll probably loose a couple of attacks. Then you are down to about 12 dmg, wich is barely enough. However this is just the average. The chance to roll higher or lower is equally possible.and as soon as your target has an inv sv you loose even more damage. Ive put 50 power klaw attacks into a knight with 3+inv. That guy did not even loose half his wounds. So often you will struggle to get those wounds in. Kill saws are better yes, but they cost more and you need other support to thin out screens. Try attacking a wave serpent (with upgrades) with your meganobs. It's depressing they do like 8 wounds.

Because of all the defences and death stars people field, meganobs barely do anything.

Gitdakka wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

I use meganobz alot and their durability is not the issue. Sure alot of people think they should be T5 but whenever I use them they wade through fire and attacks. Inv is not necessary when you have 2+sv (unless you have something silly line 4++ or better inv like custodes or dark eldar). Their issue is their dmg. Like 10 of them can not even reliably kill a single leman russ.

Umm with power klaws you average 16 wounds and spare. With kill saws 26.6666.

How is that not reliable? You want automatic deletion? Especially with kill saws you average TWO dead russ.

Now could they be killier sure but let's not exaggerate and claim 10 won't kill even russ when simple math shows that's false.

Well lets say power klaws, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds, 8 go through saves. Thats 16 dmg. But you have to go through overwatch, or try to squeeze 10 models into combat with poor movement, so we'll probably loose a couple of attacks. Then you are down to about 12 dmg, wich is barely enough. However this is just the average. The chance to roll higher or lower is equally possible.and as soon as your target has an inv sv you loose even more damage. Ive put 50 power klaw attacks into a knight with 3+inv. That guy did not even loose half his wounds. So often you will struggle to get those wounds in. Kill saws are better yes, but they cost more and you need other support to thin out screens. Try attacking a wave serpent (with upgrades) with your meganobs. It's depressing they do like 8 wounds.

Because of all the defences and death stars people field, meganobs barely do anything.

I agree with most of what you say, but Knights do not have invulnerable saves in close combat. If he took the Sanctuary Relic (which most people don't) it gives him a 5++ inv in close combat, and used Rotate Ion Shields in the Fight phase, he could have a 4++, but that's the max.

Btw MSU units of meganobs are probably alot more usefull than big squads. Some of their cumbersome nature is less of an issue on small squads. You do get alot of other weaknesses though. With cc MSU if you charge many squads, one squad might have too little impact before the enemy interrupts and kill all your dudes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@horst It was a fw knight.

Gitdakka wrote:
Btw MSU units of meganobs are probably alot more usefull than big squads. Some of their cumbersome nature is less of an issue on small squads. You do get alot of other weaknesses though. With cc MSU if you charge many squads, one squad might have too little impact before the enemy interrupts and kill all your dudes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@horst It was a fw knight.

Ah, the Lancer? That is a rough one to kill, yea. Very uncommon, but really good.

Mega nobs are... best taken planning to telly porter them in, or the jumping them forward. you can pull off a 3 trukk manz missle but hti the wrogn matchup and your trukks get blown up before they leave the deployment zone turn 1 and the price tag for each trukk w/ 3 meganobz is high at 169 points per trukk w/ meganobz. though its not a bad way to fill out your elites in a brigade. especially bringing a morkanaught for that sweet 5++ and to act as a firemagnet

and always in units of 3. anything over that and congrats you just put the biggest bullseye possible on the unit.

i used to be a big avocate for the MANz Missile strat. But coupled with AP anything reducing their survivability a bit and Transports not being able to move before disembarking kinda killed that for me.
They always die, and usually to AP-1 or 2 stuff fired in moderate to high numbers. Previously only true anti-tank weapons actually killed them quickly, now anything with an AP does. And i HATE D3 damage with a passion.

Ya MANz are not in a very good spot right now I don't think. Honestly I can't really think of many scenarios where I would opt taking them over their much cheaper nob counterpart. As far as orks as a whole go, your pretty much forced into one of two types, either all green tide or highly mechanized such as Ben Jurek's list. With the sniper/assassin meta weirdboyz/big meks are basically screwed by turn 2 generally. This means you pretty much gotta be ready to go all in by turn 2 otherwise your just not gonna have the character buffs you need. The other approach is to basically build a list that isn't reliant on characters at all to function, which is why Ben's list has been gaining a lot of popularity lately. Also it's way less models to have to move which I think a lot of ork players appreciate. I've been stuck having to play green tide from a competitive stand point since 6th edition from lack of other options and it takes a toll after a while.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

I use meganobz alot and their durability is not the issue. Sure alot of people think they should be T5 but whenever I use them they wade through fire and attacks. Inv is not necessary when you have 2+sv (unless you have something silly line 4++ or better inv like custodes or dark eldar). Their issue is their dmg. Like 10 of them can not even reliably kill a single leman russ.

Umm with power klaws you average 16 wounds and spare. With kill saws 26.6666.

How is that not reliable? You want automatic deletion? Especially with kill saws you average TWO dead russ.

Now could they be killier sure but let's not exaggerate and claim 10 won't kill even russ when simple math shows that's false.

I don't want to speak for him but I think his point is that due to their speed and base size they rarely all make combat which hurts their damage output significantly. I can attest to this also.

Well then we aren't talking about 10 meganobz are we? You are adding points to equation just for fun. If you are talking about 10 meganobz then that implies you are talking about damage output of 10 meganobz in combat. Not 6 and then 4 just to eat points.

And overwatch I find very rarely kills any meganobz and overwatch is only shooting enemy will get before they make the charge move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gitdakka wrote:
Ive put 50 power klaw attacks into a knight with 3+inv

Very few knights even can have that. Even less on the knights that you actually see in tournaments. In tournaments only inv saves you see in practice are the hyper rare relic ones and that's rare because 2+ save is just as good or better vs most and of course most common relic is the cawl's wrath.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i used to be a big avocate for the MANz Missile strat. But coupled with AP anything reducing their survivability a bit and Transports not being able to move before disembarking kinda killed that for me.
They always die, and usually to AP-1 or 2 stuff fired in moderate to high numbers. Previously only true anti-tank weapons actually killed them quickly, now anything with an AP does. And i HATE D3 damage with a passion.

Well transport thing doesn't really harm you. You appear 9.1" away from enemy anyway. Transports would die before they get anywhere close and 50% times enemy has good chance to destroy it before it gets to move. Appearing 9.1" with zero chance for enemy to shoot is superior choice. Then M4 is also pretty much irrelevant. Well actually M5 often unless you want effective 4++ vs D3 weapons/5++ vs D2 weapons.

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

I use meganobz alot and their durability is not the issue. Sure alot of people think they should be T5 but whenever I use them they wade through fire and attacks. Inv is not necessary when you have 2+sv (unless you have something silly line 4++ or better inv like custodes or dark eldar). Their issue is their dmg. Like 10 of them can not even reliably kill a single leman russ.

Umm with power klaws you average 16 wounds and spare. With kill saws 26.6666.

How is that not reliable? You want automatic deletion? Especially with kill saws you average TWO dead russ.

Now could they be killier sure but let's not exaggerate and claim 10 won't kill even russ when simple math shows that's false.

I don't want to speak for him but I think his point is that due to their speed and base size they rarely all make combat which hurts their damage output significantly. I can attest to this also.

Well then we aren't talking about 10 meganobz are we? You are adding points to equation just for fun. If you are talking about 10 meganobz then that implies you are talking about damage output of 10 meganobz in combat. Not 6 and then 4 just to eat points.

And overwatch I find very rarely kills any meganobz and overwatch is only shooting enemy will get before they make the charge move.

It depends what shoots you. I've had overwatch kill all sorts of things.

I kind of understand why people do it, but it's stupid to mathhammer full units of things getting attacks into combat. It's not like shooting where each shot is guaranteed. It virtually never happens. I have not managed to get 30 Boyz to all attack in combat since I increased their base size, let alone 40. Same with warbikes, I'm not sure if people play on tables with no terrain or something, but when I play my opponent is normally intelligent enough to move his units in a way so that I can't get all attacks into combat with the full unit. Meganobz are victims of this problem because in reality of a 10 man squad you can probably get 8 to attack in combat max, possibly less. Chunky gits!