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I have read a lot about how the “loyal 32” is too strong right now.

For some time I have been thinking about a way to change the order system to become more “fluffy”. This started after a friend of mine stated that there should not be 3 company commanders in a 1500 point list (used 3 because played a list with lot of squads). I agree with him that from a “fluff” perspective there should not be that many. So I proposed a change in how it works right now that would make it easier to build a “fluffy” list, but still allow players to use orders if they want to play with lot of squads. Mind you I have not thought about how this change would effect Tank commanders so have this in mind.

My change is the following.

1. On the Company Commander and platoon commander data-sheet the “Voice of Command” change to “Voice of Command (X)”. The (X) stand for how many orders the unit can give out. Example (4) = 4 orders ect.
2. Company commander gain “Voice of Command (5)” and Platoon commander gain “Voice of Command (3)”.
3. The point cost for Company commander and platoon commander become twice it is now (this maybe need a further fine tuning).


First, this small change would make it so if you had 2 company commanders in a “loyal 32” you would have access to 10 orders. However, the extra point cost makes it so the “loyal 32” is not as cheap and you will only use at maximum 5 orders. So you waste 5.

Second, the change makes it so if you want to have an effective order structure you will need to use vox-casters or else you will have to clump 5 units within 6”. The vox-casters add points to the infantry squad and add a use for the item.

Third, more vulnerable command structure. Instead of having 3 Company commanders in an army you now have maybe 1-2. If you lose this commander you now lose a large portion of your order pool. So snipers will be much more of a threat.

So do you think this could work and have the effect I am hoping it would have. Is there anything I have not thought about and would break the system even more? If anyone already proposed this idea before please link it so I can read the discussion there.

I've thought that all characters should be unique. Meaning you can only bring 1 captain, 1 librarian, 1 Chaos Lord, 1 Warboss, etc.

So, you want to multiply the number of orders a Company Commander can give by a factor of 2.5, and double its point cost?

Hell no to both. They do NOT need to give out five orders, but 60 points for a T3 4W 5++ model? That's insane.

5 orders coming off of one unit seems a bit much. Mostly because orders seem like they're meant to be a "pick your favorites" kind of mechanic. With 5 orders apiece, a company commander is basically just handing out all the orders all the time. Plus, I'm not sure having multiple commanders spread across the battlefield is a bad thing.

It is weird to have multiple company commanders in one place all the time, but that says to me that there should just be a lower ranking commander of some sort. Weren't platoon commanders a thing once upon a time? Maybe ressurrect them, put them in the HQ slot? Or just fluff your non-warlord company commanders as platoon commanders.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:
I've thought that all characters should be unique. Meaning you can only bring 1 captain, 1 librarian, 1 Chaos Lord, 1 Warboss, etc.

This makes a certain amount of sense. On the other hand, multiple farseers or warlocks being in one place isn't that weird (it helps to have someone check your prophecy work). Multiple succubi competing with one another can be downright fluffy. Multiple tervigons make sense. Multiple tech priests doesn't seem weird at all. Even multiple marine lieutenants or librarians being in one place is pretty easy to explain away without it feeling forced. Doubly so if your sub-faction is known for fielding lots of a particular type of character. And that's without touching on the non-HQ characters or the straight jacket this would impose on list design for armies that don't have a ton of HQ choices.

Plus, some armies do have a limited form of these restrictions, and it's kind of a pain. GSC can't have multiple maguses (magi?) despite there being recent novels in which they expressly do. The main arguments for making some/more/all characters 0-1 are fluff-based, but imposing those restrictions means you're going to be shutting down someone's fluff and unevenly nerfing list building options across various factions.

So sure. It's weird that there are two "company commanders" in one place, but the guy who loves running an army of torn apart guard regiments forced to go back to back inside the last imperial city on the planet probably loves picturing company commander Bob and company commander Jennifer tossing quips at each other as they brag about their respective troops' performances. And the guy who fluffs his second company commander as the brilliant up-and-coming successor/second in command to his grizzled old mentor commander probably doesn't love the idea of not being allowed to put those two on the same battlefield.

Or just rename Platoon Commander and Company Commander to Officer and Commanding Officer.

 Togusa wrote:
I've thought that all characters should be unique. Meaning you can only bring 1 captain, 1 librarian, 1 Chaos Lord, 1 Warboss, etc.

I think that would be a bit to restrictive in list building. Sure, I personally never put more than 1 Captain in my Space marine list for fluff. However, I play salamanders so the re roll do not effect me in such a high decree as other chapters.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, you want to multiply the number of orders a Company Commander can give by a factor of 2.5, and double its point cost?

Hell no to both. They do NOT need to give out five orders, but 60 points for a T3 4W 5++ model? That's insane.

Maybe 60 points is to high after all I did write this to get feedback. The idea behind adding points to Company commander was to make “loyal 32” more expensive without making mono infantry guard list suffer to much.

Wyldhunt wrote:
5 orders coming off of one unit seems a bit much. Mostly because orders seem like they're meant to be a "pick your favorites" kind of mechanic. With 5 orders apiece, a company commander is basically just handing out all the orders all the time. Plus, I'm not sure having multiple commanders spread across the battlefield is a bad thing.

It is weird to have multiple company commanders in one place all the time, but that says to me that there should just be a lower ranking commander of some sort. Weren't platoon commanders a thing once upon a time? Maybe ressurrect them, put them in the HQ slot? Or just fluff your non-warlord company commanders as platoon commanders.

Orders would still be a “pick your favorites” as each unit can only get one (if you do not use the relic). The only differences with my change and the system we have not is that you have 4 orders for 60 points on two 4W, 5++ models. Because you can spread the two models you do not need vox-casters (at least not in my games).

The problem with platoon commanders for me is that they only have 1 order. Also, if you made them a HQ they would make the “loyal 32” even cheaper. Something I do not think many people would be happy with.

RevlidRas wrote:
Or just rename Platoon Commander and Company Commander to Officer and Commanding Officer.

I often do play my company commanders as the rank of captains and platoon commanders as lieutenants. Hated the change in name from 7th to 8th.

What are your thoughts on Tempestor Primes?

 Apple Peel wrote:
What are your thoughts on Tempestor Primes?

I have not played with Tempestor Primes and Scions for some time now. Still, the saving grace is his stick that give him +1 order so he do not suffer the same fate as a platoon commander. I would probably only add like 1 more order and make him 45 points (with stick he will have 3 orders at 50 points). He is from what I remember squishy as his save is not that good and the deep strike often makes him stand on the front line not able to hide from snipers and the scions that drop with him die like the suicide squads they are. Because of this I do not think he need to cost more then 40-45 points. Even with an extra order.

Further more, I wish that Scions were 7 ppm and had there deep strike as a 2 ppm upgrade so you did not feel so penalized when using them with transports. :(

RevlidRas wrote:
Or just rename Platoon Commander and Company Commander to Officer and Commanding Officer.

Or alternatively, use the 3rd Edition ranks: Lieutenant (Platoon Commander), Captain (Company Commander)...

And add an additional Character HQ called Colonel - essentially a Company Commander with a built in Master of Command...

Maybe make it THE #1 weakest Lord of War in 40k at 75 points?

Slayer6 wrote:

And add an additional Character HQ called Colonel - essentially a Company Commander with a built in Master of Command...

Maybe make it THE #1 weakest Lord of War in 40k at 75 points?

Would that not just make it super easy to field a Super-Heavy Detachment? Like take a baneblade and two Colonel for a "cheap" way to get Regiment on the baneblade and 3 CP.

Tech wrote:

Slayer6 wrote:

And add an additional Character HQ called Colonel - essentially a Company Commander with a built in Master of Command...

Maybe make it THE #1 weakest Lord of War in 40k at 75 points?

Would that not just make it super easy to field a Super-Heavy Detachment? Like take a baneblade and two Colonel for a "cheap" way to get Regiment on the baneblade and 3 CP.

Considering that A: Baneblades aren't that hot, compared to knights and B: CP is not an issue allready for IG i doubt that would really be an issue.

Slayer6 wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:
Or just rename Platoon Commander and Company Commander to Officer and Commanding Officer.

Or alternatively, use the 3rd Edition ranks: Lieutenant (Platoon Commander), Captain (Company Commander)...

Or go one step better and just have "Senior Officer", "Junior Officer", and "Heroic Senior Officer" again.

And add an additional Character HQ called Colonel - essentially a Company Commander with a built in Master of Command...

Maybe make it THE #1 weakest Lord of War in 40k at 75 points?

No. We get whined about enough as is, god forbid we be able to have a Superheavy Detachment with no real issues.

I think its important to remember that having platoons in 7th was fine and fluffy as is. It also solved the "loyal 32" problem. It's almost as if what wasn't broken was fixed? Honestly have never seen such a thing take place ever in my entire life. Lets crowd source 1000 copies of Platoon be sent to GW hq along with a 5 paragraph essay with mathematics and JUST enough disgruntled complaining about meta pain to save the Imperiums premier defence force.

Sillyness aside, buff voxcasters to 36inch range to make them attractive options. Radio waves can travel far im somewhat sure.

Fluff argument I've always said ( I only run 2 CComanders and a Platoon Commander) my warlord is the true Comp[any Commander, the 2nd one is a lieutenant, and the Platoon Comander is of a lower rank. Its tough to justify doubling the cost on a model that is incredibly easy to kill though.

Just bring back platoons...

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I think its important to remember that having platoons in 7th was fine and fluffy as is. It also solved the "loyal 32" problem. It's almost as if what wasn't broken was fixed? Honestly have never seen such a thing take place ever in my entire life. Lets crowd source 1000 copies of Platoon be sent to GW hq along with a 5 paragraph essay with mathematics and JUST enough disgruntled complaining about meta pain to save the Imperiums premier defence force.

Sillyness aside, buff voxcasters to 36inch range to make them attractive options. Radio waves can travel far im somewhat sure.

Fluff argument I've always said ( I only run 2 CComanders and a Platoon Commander) my warlord is the true Comp[any Commander, the 2nd one is a lieutenant, and the Platoon Comander is of a lower rank. Its tough to justify doubling the cost on a model that is incredibly easy to kill though.

Just bring back platoons...

Give Scion Vox unlimited range. The Clarion Vox Array is supposed to be entirely superior than the normal Vox array. Also, keep platoons to guardsmen. Scions don’t need ‘em, and I’m not entirely convinced guardsmen need them as is.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I think its important to remember that having platoons in 7th was fine and fluffy as is. It also solved the "loyal 32" problem.It's almost as if what wasn't broken was fixed? Honestly have never seen such a thing take place ever in my entire life.

Gee, it's almost as if there wasn't the Loyal 32 problem because Command Points weren't a frigging thing that existed...

And no, it wasn't. Platoons in 7th were abused by taking Combined Squads with Priests+Commissars in there to serve as speed bump units.

Platoons are dead. They had their time in 3rd/4th edition, ever since then it's been trash.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
I think its important to remember that having platoons in 7th was fine and fluffy as is. It also solved the "loyal 32" problem. It's almost as if what wasn't broken was fixed? Honestly have never seen such a thing take place ever in my entire life. Lets crowd source 1000 copies of Platoon be sent to GW hq along with a 5 paragraph essay with mathematics and JUST enough disgruntled complaining about meta pain to save the Imperiums premier defence force.

Sillyness aside, buff voxcasters to 36inch range to make them attractive options. Radio waves can travel far im somewhat sure.

Fluff argument I've always said ( I only run 2 CComanders and a Platoon Commander) my warlord is the true Comp[any Commander, the 2nd one is a lieutenant, and the Platoon Comander is of a lower rank. Its tough to justify doubling the cost on a model that is incredibly easy to kill though.

Just bring back platoons...

Give Scion Vox unlimited range. The Clarion Vox Array is supposed to be entirely superior than the normal Vox array. Also, keep platoons to guardsmen. Scions don’t need ‘em, and I’m not entirely convinced guardsmen need them as is.

Agreed that forcing platoons on scions is a horrid idea. I'm not convinced guardsmen need them either, i'd just rather that then have our orders get messed with because I like the way they are working now. If the issue is with "loyal 32" then platoons are a great way to fix that.

Tech wrote:

Slayer6 wrote:

And add an additional Character HQ called Colonel - essentially a Company Commander with a built in Master of Command...

Maybe make it THE #1 weakest Lord of War in 40k at 75 points?

Would that not just make it super easy to field a Super-Heavy Detachment? Like take a baneblade and two Colonel for a "cheap" way to get Regiment on the baneblade and 3 CP.

Except that, you can already take a Supreme Command Detachment with 3 Company Commanders for less than 2 Colonels and still put Regiment on the Baneblade. Of course the price could be changed - 125 points, whatever, maybe built in additional benefits such as Ld 10...

Slayer6 wrote:

Tech wrote:

Slayer6 wrote:

And add an additional Character HQ called Colonel - essentially a Company Commander with a built in Master of Command...

Maybe make it THE #1 weakest Lord of War in 40k at 75 points?

Would that not just make it super easy to field a Super-Heavy Detachment? Like take a baneblade and two Colonel for a "cheap" way to get Regiment on the baneblade and 3 CP.

Except that, you can already take a Supreme Command Detachment with 3 Company Commanders for less than 2 Colonels and still put Regiment on the Baneblade. Of course the price could be changed - 125 points, whatever, maybe built in additional benefits such as Ld 10...

I had totally forgotten all about Supreme Command detachment. Never used it.

Who on earth is taking loyal 32 for orders? They take them for command points.

Stop letting people use different subfaction detachments as Command point batteries and all these problems go away.

 argonak wrote:
Who on earth is taking loyal 32 for orders? They take them for command points.

Stop letting people use different subfaction detachments as Command point batteries and all these problems go away.

I'm in favor of just removing stratagems all together. It doesn't really bring anything meaningful to the table less builds specifically built around them.

It should be an extra oomph, not an army defining element.

 argonak wrote:
Who on earth is taking loyal 32 for orders? They take them for command points.

Stop letting people use different subfaction detachments as Command point batteries and all these problems go away.

Why I suggest making the Company commander more expensive and with more orders. This makes the “loyal 32” more expensive as the cheapest IG HQ get a point increase (even if a Lord commissar is only 5 points more the a CC). But, at the same time they get more orders so IG players still have a use for them. I also think that the extra orders give a IG player a choice in how they want to get a board presence as in. No orders = conga-line to the CC or Vox-casters for more control, but makes the infantry squads more expensive. Right now you kinda have the cake and eat it, with how 3 CC can be everywhere you need them.

I like the idea of separating different armies command points for there own stratagems. One other way I would change it is to revert the change they did on battalion and brigade and instead up the battle forge command points..

Tech wrote:

Why I suggest making the Company commander more expensive and with more orders.

Or how about just making him more useful all around and bringing his loadout up to snuff with other factions' HQs?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

The problem isn't the number of Orders. It's the simple fact that most of the Orders are garbage, making a few notable ones stand out in the crowd.

This makes the “loyal 32” more expensive as the cheapest IG HQ get a point increase (even if a Lord commissar is only 5 points more the a CC). But, at the same time they get more orders so IG players still have a use for them. I also think that the extra orders give a IG player a choice in how they want to get a board presence as in. No orders = conga-line to the CC or Vox-casters for more control, but makes the infantry squads more expensive. Right now you kinda have the cake and eat it, with how 3 CC can be everywhere you need them.

This literally does nothing to affect the Loyal 32. Nothing. The only frigging thing that will ever remove the Loyal 32 from existing is them no longer giving Command Points en masse to Imperial factions that aren't meant to have them.

There is no ifs, ands, or buts about this. Remove the Command Point benefits, the meta will actually change in a meaningful way.

I like the idea of separating different armies command points for there own stratagems. One other way I would change it is to revert the change they did on battalion and brigade and instead up the battle forge command points..

Even better way:
Nobody gets to frigging share command points.

Any suggestion that isn't "No longer granting Command Points to non-Guard factions" is useless.

Tech wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Who on earth is taking loyal 32 for orders? They take them for command points.

Stop letting people use different subfaction detachments as Command point batteries and all these problems go away.

Why I suggest making the Company commander more expensive and with more orders. This makes the “loyal 32” more expensive as the cheapest IG HQ get a point increase (even if a Lord commissar is only 5 points more the a CC). But, at the same time they get more orders so IG players still have a use for them. I also think that the extra orders give a IG player a choice in how they want to get a board presence as in. No orders = conga-line to the CC or Vox-casters for more control, but makes the infantry squads more expensive. Right now you kinda have the cake and eat it, with how 3 CC can be everywhere you need them.

I like the idea of separating different armies command points for there own stratagems. One other way I would change it is to revert the change they did on battalion and brigade and instead up the battle forge command points..

People have already started taking Guard Battalions without officers... just 2 Tank Commanders + 30 infantry. This combines very nicely with Knights, giving some much needed extra ranged punch.

Kanluwen wrote:

Tech wrote:

Why I suggest making the Company commander more expensive and with more orders.

Or how about just making him more useful all around and bringing his loadout up to snuff with other factions' HQs?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

The problem isn't the number of Orders. It's the simple fact that most of the Orders are garbage, making a few notable ones stand out in the crowd.

I like the idea of separating different armies command points for there own stratagems. One other way I would change it is to revert the change they did on battalion and brigade and instead up the battle forge command points..

Even better way:
Nobody gets to frigging share command points.

Any suggestion that isn't "No longer granting Command Points to non-Guard factions" is useless.

The problem I see with wanting better load out for the CC is that it needs a new kit. I do not mind giving him more options. I personally often run around with two CC having each a relic power sword so they can do something in combat.

I should maybe have been more clear.
What I mean is exactly what you just typed. Each codex get there own pool of command points. So if you take a IG battalion you can only use it on their stratagems.

Horst wrote:

People have already started taking Guard Battalions without officers... just 2 Tank Commanders + 30 infantry. This combines very nicely with Knights, giving some much needed extra ranged punch.

I am a causal player so not that up to date with what is being played right now. All I ever read and hear about is the “loyal 32” of 2 CC and 30 guard.

Hilariously, this thread made me realize I'd completely misunderstood the Battle Brothers FAQ.

My group thought it entirely invalidated IMPERIUM, AELDARI, CHAOS, etc as Faction keywords for forming a Battle-forged army, rather than just for forming individual Detachments. Which we were fine with, since the only "allies" in use were Daemons who'd get summoned anyway.

Honestly, if the problem is small, cheap Guard Detachments offering outsize CP benefits to a completely different Faction, a simple solution seems to present itself. Namely, scrap CP benefits for Detachments that don't match your Warlord's Faction (not including IMPERIUM, AELDARI, CHAOS, etc). If someone wants the Loyal 32, they need to make one of those Commanders into their Warlord, and in turn they won't get CP benefits for non-Guard Detachments. Or go even more specific and make it your Warlord's <Faction> that matters; if you pick an ULTRAMARINE for your Warlord, you don't get CP from that Outrider Detachment of WHITE SCARS.

 skchsan wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Who on earth is taking loyal 32 for orders? They take them for command points.

Stop letting people use different subfaction detachments as Command point batteries and all these problems go away.

I'm in favor of just removing stratagems all together. It doesn't really bring anything meaningful to the table less builds specifically built around them.

It should be an extra oomph, not an army defining element.

If we remove command points and stratagems, then some stratagem benefits should become a part of units. Tau battles suits that had it should get their old combat drugs or whatever and Scions should be able to jump out of supersonic Valkyries without the risk of going splat, just to name a few.

 skchsan wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Who on earth is taking loyal 32 for orders? They take them for command points.

Stop letting people use different subfaction detachments as Command point batteries and all these problems go away.

I'm in favor of just removing stratagems all together. It doesn't really bring anything meaningful to the table less builds specifically built around them.

It should be an extra oomph, not an army defining element.

Completely agree. They were a cool idea that has become far too important to game-play. if they're in the game, they should be on the level of the original space marine codex, where none are particularly game changing, but just some cool things.

Index play was honestly my favorite games in 8th, although i still have a great time with it even now.