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Who would win in a one on one fight with no outside interference?

Does Perturabo have Forgebreaker?

If Perturabo has the forgebreaker then the fight would probably go to him. AFAIK neither were particularly renowned for their skills as duelists, so the deciding factor would come down to durability and wargear. Perty has the advantage in both. The rules for both in 30k supports this hypothesis as well.

Big thunder hammer and souped up terminator armor > oversized chainsword and fancy power armor

 Coolyo294 wrote:
If Perturabo has the forgebreaker then the fight would probably go to him. AFAIK neither were particularly renowned for their skills as duelists, so the deciding factor would come down to durability and wargear. Perty has the advantage in both. The rules for both in 30k supports this hypothesis as well.

Big thunder hammer and souped up terminator armor > oversized chainsword and fancy power armor

I see, but what makes forgebreaker a special weapon? From what I know it's just a named power hammer that Perturabo occasionally uses.

Dorn's probably one of the worst primarch combatants. Not that Pert is one of the best, but c'mon... almost anyone could take Dorn.

Dorn was far more known for his tactics and strategy over his battle prowess. He would be in simpler terms an extremely high leveled space marine.

Far more speed, durability, and intelligence, but still using the same type of gear and combat skills as a marine.


Perterabo was more of a monster, and fought nothing like a standard marine. Weilding his scythe and plasma pistol he tended to have a bit more potency to his attacks and his fighting style was far off from standard.




Granted Dorn was far more likely of the two to know the others secrets and tricks, being the pragmatic distrusting man that he was.

The other thing to think about is that a scythe itself is not exactly the best thing to bring to a duel. Its the type of weapon more suited to mowing down a multitude of weaker enemies than one on one combat.


Really hard to be sure how it would turn out.

I voted for Dorn, well a lot of people make good arguements for Perturabo, at the end of the day I'm gonna chulk one up to Dorn due to his greater experiance. Dorn has fought and killed another Primarch before (Alpharius) Perty does not have that distinction.

Peturabo beat the stuffing out of deamon primarch angron, dorn has no chance here

BrianDavion wrote:
I voted for Dorn, well a lot of people make good arguements for Perturabo, at the end of the day I'm gonna chulk one up to Dorn due to his greater experiance. Dorn has fought and killed another Primarch before (Alpharius) Perty does not have that distinction.

Remember when Abaddon created that 'Escape Room in SPAAAAAACE!' for Dorn?

You know the one; a big spaceship, apparently full of Iron Warriors (why are these guys always being used as mooks by black legion)? The only part of Dorn to escape was his hand? I have a sneaking suspicion Perty may actually have Dorn chalked up as his Primarch kill.... Either that or Dorn was killed by daemons, cultists or line astartes, which is even worse.

Dorn is the superior primarch, but the inferior warrior. In a straight up fight I think Pert takes it rather handily.

Perturabo. As Fulgrim says in Angel Exteriminatus, Pert is probably the best of the primarchs, but as always, he gets overlooked.

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I voted for Dorn, well a lot of people make good arguements for Perturabo, at the end of the day I'm gonna chulk one up to Dorn due to his greater experiance. Dorn has fought and killed another Primarch before (Alpharius) Perty does not have that distinction.

Remember when Abaddon created that 'Escape Room in SPAAAAAACE!' for Dorn?

You know the one; a big spaceship, apparently full of Iron Warriors (why are these guys always being used as mooks by black legion)? The only part of Dorn to escape was his hand? I have a sneaking suspicion Perty may actually have Dorn chalked up as his Primarch kill.... Either that or Dorn was killed by daemons, cultists or line astartes, which is even worse.

I wasn't aware it was confirmed what Legion took him down. and IIRC Cruz had a vision where he saw Dorn's death and it sounds like he got dragged down by sheer weight of numbers

 JamesY wrote:
Perturabo. As Fulgrim says in Angel Exteriminatus, Pert is probably the best of the primarchs, but as always, he gets overlooked.

I thought Sanguinius was the best and that's his whole thing. He's the best and that's why it's so sad he died, Chaos wanted him instead of Horus and he points out the giant hypocrisy of the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I voted for Dorn, well a lot of people make good arguements for Perturabo, at the end of the day I'm gonna chulk one up to Dorn due to his greater experiance. Dorn has fought and killed another Primarch before (Alpharius) Perty does not have that distinction.

Remember when Abaddon created that 'Escape Room in SPAAAAAACE!' for Dorn?

You know the one; a big spaceship, apparently full of Iron Warriors (why are these guys always being used as mooks by black legion)? The only part of Dorn to escape was his hand? I have a sneaking suspicion Perty may actually have Dorn chalked up as his Primarch kill.... Either that or Dorn was killed by daemons, cultists or line astartes, which is even worse.

I wasn't aware it was confirmed what Legion took him down. and IIRC Cruz had a vision where he saw Dorn's death and it sounds like he got dragged down by sheer weight of numbers

That seems really unlikely. Horus was almost killed by Russ and then fought his way through a horde of Space Wolves mainly made of their best fighters.

 JamesY wrote:
Perturabo. As Fulgrim says in Angel Exteriminatus, Pert is probably the best of the primarchs, but as always, he gets overlooked.

I think Fulgrim meant "best of us" as in most moral and civic minded. Out of all of the primarchs, Perturabo was the least inclined to be a "warlord" and all he really wanted was to be a scientist/architect/inventor. I also think that Perturabo's sheer intelligence and mental aptitude is beyond all of his brothers, and is only matched/exceeded slightly by Magnus.

In a strategy fight, Perturabo wins. The only time that the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists fought openly with their respective primarchs commanding their forces was at the Iron Cage, and the Iron Warriors nearly wiped out the Fists.

In a physical fight, neither primarch was especially noted for their skill as a duelist as was stated already. However, it has been shown numerous times in the lore that Perturabo can hold his own in a fight, even against Angron. Perturabo wins here too.

So overall, Perturabo wins.

w1zard wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Perturabo. As Fulgrim says in Angel Exteriminatus, Pert is probably the best of the primarchs, but as always, he gets overlooked.

I think Fulgrim meant "best of us" as in most moral and civic minded. Out of all of the primarchs, Perturabo was the least inclined to be a "warlord" and all he really wanted was to be a scientist/architect/inventor. I also think that Perturabo's sheer intelligence and mental aptitude is beyond all of his brothers, and is only matched/exceeded slightly by Magnus.

In a strategy fight, Perturabo wins. The only time that the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists fought openly with their respective primarchs commanding their forces was at the Iron Cage, and the Iron Warriors nearly wiped out the Fists.

In a physical fight, neither primarch was especially noted for their skill as a duelist as was stated already. However, it has been shown numerous times in the lore that Perturabo can hold his own in a fight, even against Angron. Perturabo wins here too.

So overall, Perturabo wins.

I don't think the Iron Cage really counts as a good example of who wins. It was a specially designed trap the Fists knowing and willingly walked into.

dorn at the time was also suffering a massive case of survivor's guilt so wasn't in his right mind

pm713 wrote:
I don't think the Iron Cage really counts as a good example of who wins.

Why not? Is there some sort of magical criteria where we have to discount battles or something? Sure we can probably safely discount curbstomp battles where one side didn't have a chance in hell of winning, because it doesn't matter how good a commander is if the chance of victory isn't really there in the first place. But, IIRC the numbers were pretty balanced at the beginning, and the entire Imperial Fists legion was there and had Dorn commanding them. The fists willingly walked into a battle where the Iron Warriors had a massive defensive advantage and were crushed because they were either too stubborn or thought they were better in siege warfare then they actually were.

BrianDavion wrote:
dorn at the time was also suffering a massive case of survivor's guilt so wasn't in his right mind

And Perturabo used that against him. I fail to see why we have to make allowances for Dorn's state of mind... If an opponent is capable of seeing and utilizing a flaw in your personality to win a military victory over you, doesn't that mean he bested you?

In a duel Perturabo would massacre Dorn.

Dorn is, frankly, the buttmonkey of the Primarchs. There is not a single thing he is shown to excel at when one looks at the facts. He just barely scraped a win against canonically the smallest and physically weakest Primarch in Alpharius, who was also never noted to be a particularly strong duelist at all.

Perturabo has acquainted himself well against his brothers.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't think the Iron Cage really counts as a good example of who wins.

Why not? Is there some sort of magical criteria where we have to discount battles or something? Sure we can probably safely discount curbstomp battles where one side didn't have a chance in hell of winning, because it doesn't matter how good a commander is if the chance of victory isn't really there in the first place. But, IIRC the numbers were pretty balanced at the beginning, and the entire Imperial Fists legion was there and had Dorn commanding them. The fists willingly walked into a battle where the Iron Warriors had a massive defensive advantage and were crushed because they were either too stubborn or thought they were better in siege warfare then they actually were.

BrianDavion wrote:
dorn at the time was also suffering a massive case of survivor's guilt so wasn't in his right mind

And Perturabo used that against him. I fail to see why we have to make allowances for Dorn's state of mind... If an opponent is capable of seeing and utilizing a flaw in your personality to win a military victory over you, doesn't that mean he bested you?

The why not part is in the part of my post you cut out.

A singular very special battle is not how you determine the better commander overall, you look at overall strategic skills and performance.

Depends on if Dorn is able to plan out the fight beforehand. If they have time to make preparations, I'd give it to Dorn. If it's just SUDDENLY THESE TWO FIGHT, probably Petulabo.

pm713 wrote:
The why not part is in the part of my post you cut out.

A singular very special battle is not how you determine the better commander overall, you look at overall strategic skills and performance.

I didn't ignore your reasoning, I just don't accept it as valid. If we start picking and choosing which battles "count" things become a lot more subjective. Yes, the Iron Cage was a trap, specifically designed against the Imperial fists. But it was still a battle, namely, the ONLY battle (as far as we know) where Perturabo and Dorn fought as commanders of their respective forces against each other. The entire Imperial Fists legion was present, it's not as if they were terribly outnumbered or something, they were just beaten at their own game. Does that not say something about the tactical acumen of Perturabo vs Dorn? People are complaining that Dorn was "crazy with grief" and "not in his right mind" but doesn't that mean Perturabo was good enough to exploit that and deserves credit?

Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The why not part is in the part of my post you cut out.

A singular very special battle is not how you determine the better commander overall, you look at overall strategic skills and performance.

I didn't ignore your reasoning, I just don't accept it as valid. If we start picking and choosing which battles "count" things become a lot more subjective. Yes, the Iron Cage was a trap, specifically designed against the Imperial fists. But it was still a battle, namely, the ONLY battle (as far as we know) where Perturabo and Dorn fought as commanders of their respective forces against each other. The entire Imperial Fists legion was present, it's not as if they were terribly outnumbered or something, they were just beaten at their own game. Does that not say something about the tactical acumen of Perturabo vs Dorn? People are complaining that Dorn was "crazy with grief" and "not in his right mind" but doesn't that mean Perturabo was good enough to exploit that and deserves credit?

Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

If someone is basically insane with grief and as a result willingly walks into a trap that isn't a measure of how they are as a strategic commander. Why isn't that valid?

Using the Iron Cage as reasoning for Perturabo being a better commander overall than Dorn is like saying Dorn is a better commander if he fights Perturabo while he's unconscious.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The why not part is in the part of my post you cut out.

A singular very special battle is not how you determine the better commander overall, you look at overall strategic skills and performance.

I didn't ignore your reasoning, I just don't accept it as valid. If we start picking and choosing which battles "count" things become a lot more subjective. Yes, the Iron Cage was a trap, specifically designed against the Imperial fists. But it was still a battle, namely, the ONLY battle (as far as we know) where Perturabo and Dorn fought as commanders of their respective forces against each other. The entire Imperial Fists legion was present, it's not as if they were terribly outnumbered or something, they were just beaten at their own game. Does that not say something about the tactical acumen of Perturabo vs Dorn? People are complaining that Dorn was "crazy with grief" and "not in his right mind" but doesn't that mean Perturabo was good enough to exploit that and deserves credit?

Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

If someone is basically insane with grief and as a result willingly walks into a trap that isn't a measure of how they are as a strategic commander. Why isn't that valid?

Using the Iron Cage as reasoning for Perturabo being a better commander overall than Dorn is like saying Dorn is a better commander if he fights Perturabo while he's unconscious.

this. the Iron Cage is a singular data point. However given one of the commanders was emotionally comprimised it's a poor judge of that commanders abilities

It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument.

Sadly Perty and Lord Adorable have never had a proper fight either of them have been prepared for. In addition, it's like any comic book fight. The one who wins is who the author wants to win.

But my money is on Bou.

pm713 wrote:
If someone is basically insane with grief and as a result willingly walks into a trap that isn't a measure of how they are as a strategic commander. Why isn't that valid?

Using the Iron Cage as reasoning for Perturabo being a better commander overall than Dorn is like saying Dorn is a better commander if he fights Perturabo while he's unconscious.

Now who is ignoring whom? I never claimed that Perturabo was overall a better commander than Dorn. I did say:

w1zard wrote:
Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

BrianDavion wrote:
this. the Iron Cage is a singular data point. However given one of the commanders was emotionally comprimised it's a poor judge of that commanders abilities

Again, we cannot start picking and choosing which battles "count" and which do not. Oh, Magnus losing to Russ didn't count because he was in emotional anguish... Horus losing to the emperor doesn't count because he didn't have his wheaties that morning...

cody.d. wrote:
It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument....

It isn't like that at all... Dorn knew what he was doing when he went into the Iron Cage and thought he was good enough to drag Perturbo back to Terra despite the heavy casualties he knew he was going to take. He was wrong, again.

"Upon discovering the Eternal Fortress, Dorn declared that he would go there and bring Perturabo back to Terra in an iron cage." -Index Astartes

 Jazzylee wrote:
Who would win in a one on one fight with no outside interference?

Whichever one you like best.

Threads like this are silly.

 Melissia wrote:
Depends on if Dorn is able to plan out the fight beforehand. If they have time to make preparations, I'd give it to Dorn. If it's just SUDDENLY THESE TWO FIGHT, probably Petulabo.

Well Perty is just as good (or close enough) at preparations.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If someone is basically insane with grief and as a result willingly walks into a trap that isn't a measure of how they are as a strategic commander. Why isn't that valid?

Using the Iron Cage as reasoning for Perturabo being a better commander overall than Dorn is like saying Dorn is a better commander if he fights Perturabo while he's unconscious.

Now who is ignoring whom? I never claimed that Perturabo was overall a better commander than Dorn. I did say:

w1zard wrote:
Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

BrianDavion wrote:
this. the Iron Cage is a singular data point. However given one of the commanders was emotionally comprimised it's a poor judge of that commanders abilities

Again, we cannot start picking and choosing which battles "count" and which do not. Oh, Magnus losing to Russ didn't count because he was in emotional anguish... Horus losing to the emperor doesn't count because he didn't have his wheaties that morning...

cody.d. wrote:
It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument....

It isn't like that at all... Dorn knew what he was doing when he went into the Iron Cage and thought he was good enough to drag Perturbo back to Terra despite the heavy casualties he knew he was going to take. He was wrong, again.

"Upon discovering the Eternal Fortress, Dorn declared that he would go there and bring Perturabo back to Terra in an iron cage." -Index Astartes

actually I WOULD discount Prosperio in Magnus vs Russ as Magnus was, until the end, basicly looking to die.

cody.d. wrote:
It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument.

There was a "best fist-fighter" thread where folks did exactly that.

Engrenages wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Depends on if Dorn is able to plan out the fight beforehand. If they have time to make preparations, I'd give it to Dorn. If it's just SUDDENLY THESE TWO FIGHT, probably Petulabo.

Well Perty is just as good (or close enough) at preparations.

Only time he managed to beat Dorn as a planner, IIRC, was the Iron Cage, when Dorn basically went in without plans in order to prove a point to his own legion about the Codex Astartes by causing them to feel such pain that they would rethink their position on it. Basically Dorn went in to that TRYING to lose, and still managed to hold on long enough to be relieved by the Ultramarines and win in the end, and prevent the destruction of his legion to the point that he still had enough marines to form quite a few chapters upon accepting the Codex Astartes.

Dorn was a genius amongst geniuses at battle planning and preparation. it's how he utterly dismantled all of the petulant manchild's empire with minimal resistance in the first place, making Perturabo try to design something to challenge him to begin with. All of the Primarchs were good at waging war, sure, but Dorn was still a step above the rest, with few outside of Horus being able to match him.