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I've been steadily building interest in 40K, checking out battle reports and watching other content for a bit now, and I got to thinking about potential character rules. One that cropped up was the thought of a character of such unparalleled evasive skill in combat they effectively danced circles around enemies, but drew this quality from some unnatural rhythmic attunement. Given the Harlequins' affinity for performance art mixed with combat, I felt such an infuriating ability would be most suitable for one of the Murder Clowns. As a balancing mechanic, this dance is so infuriating to fight that success in disrupting the dancer's rhythm rewards attackers with extra attempts to strike them. With that explained, I think the actual rule (with name) can be shown as follows:

"Terpsichorean Rhythm: When in combat, non-character units attacking this character are treated as having weapon skill 1 (characters are treated as having weapon skill 3) and cannot be modified by any other rule for the duration of combat with this character. For every successful hit, increase the weapon skill of the unit attacking and roll an additional d6. These successive hit rolls stop after the unit finishes all rolls to hit on weapon skill 5."

I understand that this can be exceptionally strong, yet risky if the character is used improperly, such as by getting into combat with characters who can get a lot of multi-wound attacks (or a blob of World Eaters), and the extra attacks can get out of control. I'm on the fence on this next idea, but I considered adding in a special strategem as a small safety net for this, which goes thusly:

"When X character suffers a hit roll in combat from an enemy, activate this strategem for 1 CP and negate one hit roll on a +2 roll. The enemy must process their current hit rolls once this strategem is declared. Make one attack on the enemy unit whose attack was negated."

Given that our dear Murder Clown is still in the middle of a performance, it stands to reason that part of the act can be feigning vulnerability for a dramatic flourish. Keep in mind that this cannot be used to completely avoid all current attacks from an enemy by killing them first, as I felt that to be a bridge much too far that would diminish the risk assessment this rule relies on.

So, thoughts on these rules? Level of absurdity? Price and stats required to call them balanced? Crazy build ideas? Fluff/Crunch synchronicity? Fire away, I'd like to hear what you all think of this.

Unneededly complex.

Also using 7th and earlier terminology, not 8th edition.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Unneededly complex.

Also using 7th and earlier terminology, not 8th edition.

Fair. How would you write the first rule? The intent is that everyone effectively gets DttFE against the guy, but non-characters initially hit on 6s, characters hit on 4s, and it ratchets up until you can't fail.

Vorpalim wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Unneededly complex.

Also using 7th and earlier terminology, not 8th edition.

Fair. How would you write the first rule? The intent is that everyone effectively gets DttFE against the guy, but non-characters initially hit on 6s, characters hit on 4s, and it ratchets up until you can't fail.

Well, I'd probably phrase a direct translation of that into something like...

"Attacks made against this model in the Fight phase hit on 6's regardless of modifiers. Attacks made by Characters instead hit on 4's."

The whole "get better at hitting him as you hit him" thing seems pretty unworkable to me though. It would force you to resolve every single to-hit roll individually until you managed to roll a 6 just in case one of the early swings made subsequent swings hit. It's a similar problem to that of the shadowfield only worse because at least the shadowfield lets you roll all your to-hit and to-wound rolls together before you start rolling saves one at a time.

If you just want a rule that indicates your guy is especially good at dodging/evading harm for some reason (be it supernatural music, spider senses, cross fit, whatever), then you can express that fluff with much simpler rules. Off the top of my head, other rules representing similar things include...
* +1 to invul saves (Red Grief warlord trait)
* -1 to to-hit rolls (Lightning Fast Reactions stratagem)
* When you make an invul save of 6+ is the Fight phase, inflict a single mortal wound on the attacker (Cursed Blade warlord trait)

Plenty of other options exist. Unless you absolutely positively want to force people to hit him on 6s (a difficult mechanic to make fun for your opponent), I'd consider going with something simpler and less potent.

Wyldhunt wrote:
The whole "get better at hitting him as you hit him" thing seems pretty unworkable to me though. It would force you to resolve every single to-hit roll individually until you managed to roll a 6 just in case one of the early swings made subsequent swings hit. It's a similar problem to that of the shadowfield only worse because at least the shadowfield lets you roll all your to-hit and to-wound rolls together before you start rolling saves one at a time.

I suppose I can see edge cases where the counter attack strategem might cause complications now. However, when those edge cases of the character having the potential to kill the attacker don't apply, rolling should be conducted as normal without problems since you'd only get to stop one attack. All valid successive rolls just have to be done in rounds with a pause between for the counter to be considered.

As for mentioning weapon skill, I was still under the impression it was a thing, but in a simpler way that had static values that required no calculation between the attacker and defender. I'd also prefer to not have the rule be so simple as the other ways you suggested, as it wouldn't capture the core idea behind it. Thanks for hearing me out though.

Vorpalim wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
The whole "get better at hitting him as you hit him" thing seems pretty unworkable to me though. It would force you to resolve every single to-hit roll individually until you managed to roll a 6 just in case one of the early swings made subsequent swings hit. It's a similar problem to that of the shadowfield only worse because at least the shadowfield lets you roll all your to-hit and to-wound rolls together before you start rolling saves one at a time.

I suppose I can see edge cases where the counter attack strategem might cause complications now. However, when those edge cases of the character having the potential to kill the attacker don't apply, rolling should be conducted as normal without problems since you'd only get to stop one attack. All valid successive rolls just have to be done in rounds with a pause between for the counter to be considered.

I wasn't really talking about the stratagem. In 8th edition, you technically resolve attacks one at a time. There aren't really rules for forming a "pool" of attacks. We just tend to "speed roll" the dice by rolling all of our attacks together because it's much more convenient and normally doesn't matter. Generally speaking, all similar models in a unit will be hitting on the same number against a given target unit, so there's no harm in rolling them all together.

The issue is that your Terpsichorean rhythm rule changes the number that would be needed for individual attacks to hit as a direct result of them hitting.

So the normal process is...

1. Pick a unit to attack with.
2. Declare how you're allocating the activated unit's attacks. ("I'm swinging these 3 guys at your tactical marines, and I"ll put these 2 guys and my power klaw into your captain.")
3. Roll a single to-hit roll.
4. Roll a single to-wound roll.
5. Roll a single save.
6. Roll damage if applicable.
7. Roll any Feel No Pains.
8. If any attacks remain to be resolved, return to step 3.

The problem is that your rule changes the number needed to hit at step 3. If I have 60 attacks to roll with a blob of ork boyz, I might hit you with the first attack. Or I might not. If I do hit with one of the first few attacks, then all subsequent attacks are that much more likely to hit. And if any of those attacks hit, all attacks after them are that much more likely to hit.

It's not the same as simply rolling all 60 attacks at once. You'd have to sit there waiting for me to roll 60 to-hit rolls one at a time until I maxed out my WS.

As for mentioning weapon skill, I was still under the impression it was a thing, but in a simpler way that had static values that required no calculation between the attacker and defender. I'd also prefer to not have the rule be so simple as the other ways you suggested, as it wouldn't capture the core idea behind it. Thanks for hearing me out though.

That is, in fact, how Weapon Skill works. It's just not expressed as "WS 1" or what have you. It's, "WS3+" or "WS4+". So "WS3+" indicates that the model hits on a roll of 3 or more.

No worries if none of the rules I mentioned appeal to you. There is definitely something to be said for making a unit feel unique by giving it a unique rule. The trick is to make those rules fit neatly into an already complicated game.

Wyldhunt wrote:
The problem is that your rule changes the number needed to hit at step 3. If I have 60 attacks to roll with a blob of ork boyz, I might hit you with the first attack. Or I might not. If I do hit with one of the first few attacks, then all subsequent attacks are that much more likely to hit. And if any of those attacks hit, all attacks after them are that much more likely to hit.

Now I see the real source of the confusion, and it's on account of me wording the rule ever so improperly! I tried to get technical with the explanation of the rule, dress it up as something that might actually appear in a rule book and be precise, but in doing so I introduced a glaring flaw. No, the intent is that only the "extra" attacks get to have the +1 modifier, so you could still use quick rolling in rounds and pick out the hits for the subsequent rounds.

The accompanying strategem still feels like it could slow things down though, so making it a lot less technical would be better. How about this for a start:

"Terpsichorean Rhythm: When in combat, ignore positive enemy to hit modifiers and add -2 to hit this character. Each successful hit roll counts as 2 hits."

Not exactly how I want it to work, especially since it doesn't have the crazy and potentially dramatic ramp up effect, but it's a hell of a lot shorter than what I tried before.

Vorpalim wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
The problem is that your rule changes the number needed to hit at step 3. If I have 60 attacks to roll with a blob of ork boyz, I might hit you with the first attack. Or I might not. If I do hit with one of the first few attacks, then all subsequent attacks are that much more likely to hit. And if any of those attacks hit, all attacks after them are that much more likely to hit.

Now I see the real source of the confusion, and it's on account of me wording the rule ever so improperly! I tried to get technical with the explanation of the rule, dress it up as something that might actually appear in a rule book and be precise, but in doing so I introduced a glaring flaw. No, the intent is that only the "extra" attacks get to have the +1 modifier, so you could still use quick rolling in rounds and pick out the hits for the subsequent rounds.

The accompanying strategem still feels like it could slow things down though, so making it a lot less technical would be better. How about this for a start:

"Terpsichorean Rhythm: When in combat, ignore positive enemy to hit modifiers and add -2 to hit this character. Each successful hit roll counts as 2 hits."

Not exactly how I want it to work, especially since it doesn't have the crazy and potentially dramatic ramp up effect, but it's a hell of a lot shorter than what I tried before.

That's much easier for me to wrap my brain around! A couple of thoughts:

1.) You may run into niche cases where you'd need to clarify what counts as a modifier. How does this interact with Kharn's "always hit on 2's" rule, for instance?

2.) This rule includes both to-hit penalties and bonus hits. So you're effectively changing the average number of hits your opponent will generate twice. You're lowering the average number of hits with the -2 penalty, but you're increasing it again by generating bonus attacks when the enemy does hit. So despite being slightly more complicated than a flat -1 to hit penalty, you're functionally ending up in the same place. The specific numbers will vary depending on what's attacking you, but you're basically changing their average number of hits by X (just like a flat to-hit penalty) and also increasing their maximum damage output (in the event that they get stupid lucky and hit with a bunch of attacks.)

There's something to be said for adding to the "feel" of the rule by representing it with a more dramatic modifier combined with some extra attacks. Just be aware that most of the time you'll just be creating a slightly more specific change to the number of hits landed than a normal to-hit penalty.

Wyldhunt wrote:

That's much easier for me to wrap my brain around! A couple of thoughts:

1.) You may run into niche cases where you'd need to clarify what counts as a modifier. How does this interact with Kharn's "always hit on 2's" rule, for instance?

2.) This rule includes both to-hit penalties and bonus hits. So you're effectively changing the average number of hits your opponent will generate twice. You're lowering the average number of hits with the -2 penalty, but you're increasing it again by generating bonus attacks when the enemy does hit. So despite being slightly more complicated than a flat -1 to hit penalty, you're functionally ending up in the same place. The specific numbers will vary depending on what's attacking you, but you're basically changing their average number of hits by X (just like a flat to-hit penalty) and also increasing their maximum damage output (in the event that they get stupid lucky and hit with a bunch of attacks.)

There's something to be said for adding to the "feel" of the rule by representing it with a more dramatic modifier combined with some extra attacks. Just be aware that most of the time you'll just be creating a slightly more specific change to the number of hits landed than a normal to-hit penalty.

Well I'm not sure about how to handle the first one. Could add in "only consider this rule and ignore any that would contradict it" but that seems like it would piss some people off. I can't decide what would be funnier, having Kharn get even more pissed off at not being able to maim a dancing clown, or having him say "ENOUGH WITH THIS SH*T" and tear the guy into bloody chunks. Another way would be to put in language that identifies such special rules which contradict each other and have both players roll off to see who picks which rule to apply, which would allow for both and keep things a bit fair.

For the second, I certainly see how it looks a bit more convoluted when looking at it statistically. Would still prefer to do things the way I'd initially conceived it, but I'm not sure how to make it clear and concise.

In general, it’s better to go with a more restrictive rule set for your home brews so I would suggest letting Khorne keep his always hits on 2s.

Though you could still keep the minus 2 so he hits his own guys on 4s now as well. The clown is so infuriating Kharn murders more of everything as he tries to kill the clown.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
In general, it’s better to go with a more restrictive rule set for your home brews so I would suggest letting Khorne keep his always hits on 2s.

Though you could still keep the minus 2 so he hits his own guys on 4s now as well. The clown is so infuriating Kharn murders more of everything as he tries to kill the clown.

You know what, I like that

Vorpalim wrote:
I've been steadily building interest in 40K, checking out battle reports and watching other content for a bit now, and I got to thinking about potential character rules. One that cropped up was the thought of a character of such unparalleled evasive skill in combat they effectively danced circles around enemies, but drew this quality from some unnatural rhythmic attunement. Given the Harlequins' affinity for performance art mixed with combat, I felt such an infuriating ability would be most suitable for one of the Murder Clowns. As a balancing mechanic, this dance is so infuriating to fight that success in disrupting the dancer's rhythm rewards attackers with extra attempts to strike them. With that explained, I think the actual rule (with name) can be shown as follows:

"Terpsichorean Rhythm: When in combat, non-character units attacking this character are treated as having weapon skill 1 (characters are treated as having weapon skill 3) and cannot be modified by any other rule for the duration of combat with this character. For every successful hit, increase the weapon skill of the unit attacking and roll an additional d6. These successive hit rolls stop after the unit finishes all rolls to hit on weapon skill 5."

I understand that this can be exceptionally strong, yet risky if the character is used improperly, such as by getting into combat with characters who can get a lot of multi-wound attacks (or a blob of World Eaters), and the extra attacks can get out of control. I'm on the fence on this next idea, but I considered adding in a special strategem as a small safety net for this, which goes thusly:

"When X character suffers a hit roll in combat from an enemy, activate this strategem for 1 CP and negate one hit roll on a +2 roll. The enemy must process their current hit rolls once this strategem is declared. Make one attack on the enemy unit whose attack was negated."

Given that our dear Murder Clown is still in the middle of a performance, it stands to reason that part of the act can be feigning vulnerability for a dramatic flourish. Keep in mind that this cannot be used to completely avoid all current attacks from an enemy by killing them first, as I felt that to be a bridge much too far that would diminish the risk assessment this rule relies on.

So, thoughts on these rules? Level of absurdity? Price and stats required to call them balanced? Crazy build ideas? Fluff/Crunch synchronicity? Fire away, I'd like to hear what you all think of this.

How about making it a WL trait?

TERPSICHOREAN RHYTM
Subtract 1 from all hit rolls made against the Warlord by models other than CHARACTERS. Subtract 1 from hit rolls against the Warlord if your Warlord charged, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn. Hit rolls of 6+ made against the Warlord in the Fight phase inflict 3 hits instead of 1.

You can’t roll a 6+ with a -1 penalty unless you also have a +1 from somewhere.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You can’t roll a 6+ with a -1 penalty unless you also have a +1 from somewhere.

That's intentional, only HQs get the extra hits and only after the first round of combat. If you wanted it to be less OP you could have the melee -1 only kick in while the Warlord is at full wounds.