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Hey, trying to sort out a list to build towards, really want to use the forgeworld Scorpion as I absolutely love the model, it makes a mess of the knights I see everywhere, but I don't want to go full cheese. I know the fire prism is probably better, but I'm not generally keen on spamming the same unit, I like variety (like the old white dwarf battle report type armies). Quite like the idea of Ulthwe (love Eldrad/40k Teclis) and a big chunk of guardians supporting this big behemoth, think it would look good on the table.

Tried to avoid aspect warriors with the ulthwe theme, but put in some shining spears for some counter assault/zoning, couldn't really see another way of doing this tbh (avatar would be cool?). The autarch can do this too, but can also hang back to buff the guardians if necessary.

Though the other detachments aren't ulthwe, I think they fit into the theme. The scatter bikes are handy anti horde which seems common now, and good for grabbing objectives.

War walkers are a cheap themed fire base. Are no flyers a big issue?


++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [32 PL, 730pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ Lord of War +

Scorpion [32 PL, 730pts]: Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [45 PL, 847pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned

+ HQ +

Eldrad Ulthran [8 PL, 135pts]: 1. Guide, 2. Doom, 3. Fortune, Craftworlds Warlord, Ulthwe: Fate Reader

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Guardian Defenders [9 PL, 190pts]: 20x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon

Guardian Defenders [9 PL, 190pts]: 20x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

+ Heavy Support +

War Walkers [12 PL, 162pts]
. War Walker: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser
. War Walker: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser
. War Walker: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [24 PL, 422pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host

+ HQ +

Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 112pts]: Fusion Pistol, Laser Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult

+ Fast Attack +

Shining Spears [10 PL, 172pts]
. 4x Shining Spear: 4x Laser Lance, 4x Twin Shuriken Catapult
. Shining Spear Exarch: Star Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult

Windriders [4 PL, 69pts]
. 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser

Windriders [4 PL, 69pts]
. 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser

++ Total: [101 PL, 1999pts] ++


Would really appreciate any tips or advice.

Hm. Well, if I were sinking 700 points into a scorpion I'd want to just go all in on a mechanized list at that point for target saturation. Give them hard choices and make small arms useless. So, I wouldn't bother with the guardians. Maybe the one big blob if it's important to you being Ulthwe, you can at least use the strategem for a 4++ to make them somewhat durable. Otherwise I'd load up on prisms, CHEs, maybe war walkers with anti horde weapons. Even support platforms could be interesting, being a fair amount of durable wounds for the points which can hide in the backfield.

Thanks for your reply! That's interesting, part of the reason for going kind of hordey was precisely because I was sinking 700pts into one model, wanted to offset it with numbers. I get what you mean about target saturation and giving the opponent harder choices, realistically every big gun is gonna go for the scorpion, though I also thought with the psychic support it should be pretty durable, kind of a very dangerous distraction carnifex. Part of the reason of the guardians too is the bubble wrapping they can be for the scorpion.

I love mechanised eldar, but it's just so expensive, also I thought a lot of what it's good at (e.g. fire prisms linked firing something big, fire dragons in a falcon etc.) the scorpion is already better at, so they'd be kind of redundant. I'm not a fan of the GW eldar flyer models (look too much like real life 5th or 6th gen fighter planes to me), though I guess if people were ok with me using a phoenix or nightwing as a proxy I'd be ok taking one. I also thought about a couple of hornets with their pulse lasers instead of the shining spears, but thought counter assault would be more valuable, am I wrong? Also there's the wasp assault walkers which could be cool.

I like the war walker idea, already had 3 in, I opted for the scatterbikes instead of more as they can go for objectives too. I hadn't really thought about support platforms, are they any good? Thought nightspinners might be an ok choice as well. Really wish the firestorm had a points value I'd take it every game.

Another thing I was considering was taking Asurmen with 2 squads of 10 dire avengers instead of the guardians, they'd be tough as nails, though I'm not sure if better.

What do you think about the counterassault units? Are they worth it or go for more shooting? I'd also considered wraithlords, a bit left field but figured they're tough, put out ok shooting and are very flexible in terms of what they can take on.

Sorry I'm just coming back to 8th edition, haven't played for a while, lots to learn it seems!

Thanks again for your help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rejigged it to fit in a crimson hunter exarch, they do seem kind of incredible for getting air superiority. I'd want to convert a nightwing though if that's acceptable.


++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [32 PL, 730pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ Lord of War +

Scorpion [32 PL, 730pts]: Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [48 PL, 892pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned

+ HQ +

Eldrad Ulthran [8 PL, 135pts]: 1. Guide, 2. Doom, 3. Fortune, Craftworlds Warlord, Ulthwe: Fate Reader

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Guardian Defenders [9 PL, 190pts]: 20x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

+ Heavy Support +

War Walkers [12 PL, 162pts]
. War Walker: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser
. War Walker: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser
. War Walker: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser

+ Flyer +

Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [22 PL, 377pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host

+ HQ +

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 67pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

+ Fast Attack +

Shining Spears [10 PL, 172pts]
. 4x Shining Spear: 4x Laser Lance, 4x Twin Shuriken Catapult
. Shining Spear Exarch: Star Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult

Windriders [4 PL, 69pts]
. 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser

Windriders [4 PL, 69pts]
. 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser

++ Total: [102 PL, 1999pts] ++

I wouldn't suggest bubble wrapping the scorpion with guardians. They're just so incredibly fragile for the points... no more durable than guardsmen yet twice the points! And with only 12" range on their guns, they won't be shooting anything if they're sitting in the backfield with your scorpion. They're incredibly easy for an opponent to remove if they wish. Further, I just don't think bubble wrapping is that important for the scorpion. As it can fly, it could fall back out of combat and still shoot if need be. I would just use rangers or your other mechanized units to zone out the backfield.

I get what you mean about the scorpion handling anti armor duty, but its still only going to ideally delete one thing a turn. Wonderful against knights, but there will often be more threats. A trio of prisms would be a great compliment; they have a similar profile for target saturation and can contribute either anti horde or anti tank with the different profiles. The problem with prisms is they loose effectiveness once they are focused down, but if the opponent focuses on prisms your scorpion will be off the hook. As for planes, I consider CHE arguably our best unit, along with our psychers. Nightwings are also a potential interesting choice in a list like this. They combine good anti infantry with solid anti tank, and are cheap. You may like the look of them better than the hunter/hemlock.

I do like scatterbikes, but in this list I'd opt for war walkers instead simply for the better defensive profile. Support weapons are indeed pretty solid... not something I'd build a list around, but a useful option depending on what you feel they need. 5 toughness 5 wounds with a 4+ save for 37 points isn't bad at all, and the ignoring LOS from shadow weavers is useful. Don't have experience with vibro cannons but some people like them, you just need to really stack them to be worth it. I think 5 or more.

As for avengers and Asurmen... I wouldn't. He's another big point sink for what he contributes. Which is next to nothing offensively. The 4++ save he gives the avengers is overrated. High AP weapons are going to be aiming for your Scorpion and other armor anyway. When you're already investing a third of your points in the scorpion, I would be highly reluctant to field large, expensive squads of avengers with Asurmen. I am a fan of minimum size avenger squads in serpents as a way to fill troop slots, but typically only if I'm trying a two battalion list and have no use for more rangers.

I usually love spears, it just isn't the way I'd think to go when running a scorpion. But maybe they will work great as a counter assault unit! I think they make more sense if you opt to keep the scatbikes after all, due to similar profiles. As for wraithlords... they are one of my favorite models yet I never use them. Perhaps they could work in this list if you go full mechanized, otherwise they're just asking to get blown off the board. They do look so cool!

Hmmmm ok I had a think and if I was going to go really hard, maybe something like this would be stronger? Not really sure I'd want to use a list like this as it feels kind of cheese, but it could look very cool on the table with a nice hierarchy to it: 3 bike characters, 9 bikes, 3 falcon chassis, 1 super heavy, 1 flyer. I guess if the opponent doesn't have enough anti tank it's going to be an issue, on the other hand if they cover the table with guardsman or gaunts I'm probably going to struggle a lot. Although I'd kind of question, would this be fun to use/play against? I kind of thought going theme with ulthwe and loads of guardians would help tone down any whinging about bringing a lord of war, although tbh I've been out of the 40k scene for a while so not sure what's considered ok these days.


++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [32 PL, 730pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ Lord of War +

Scorpion [32 PL, 730pts]: Bright Lance, Spirit Stones

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [55 PL, 993pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ HQ +

Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 132pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 67pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

+ Heavy Support +

Fire Prism [9 PL, 157pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

Fire Prism [9 PL, 157pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

Night Spinner [8 PL, 125pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Shuriken Cannon

+ Flyer +

Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [16 PL, 274pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Saim-Hann: Wild Host

+ HQ +

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 67pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

+ Fast Attack +

Windriders [4 PL, 69pts]
. 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser

Windriders [4 PL, 69pts]
. 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser

Windriders [4 PL, 69pts]
. 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser

++ Total: [103 PL, 1997pts] ++

I would try to get that 3rd prism in. Maybe move your hvy support to a spearhead detachment (Alaitoc). Make one windrider unit of 6. Better for buffs. This frees up points for the 3rd prisms.
Just my 2 cents :-)

Tzusam wrote:
I would try to get that 3rd prism in. Maybe move your hvy support to a spearhead detachment (Alaitoc). Make one windrider unit of 6. Better for buffs. This frees up points for the 3rd prisms.
Just my 2 cents :-)

Oof triple prisms and the scorpion does sound pretty terrifying, how does that list deal with hordes though? I increasingly suspect dark reapers are the answer....but don't want to be that guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok...here it is:


++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [32 PL, 722pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ Lord of War +

Scorpion [32 PL, 722pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [41 PL, 738pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ HQ +

Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 132pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 67pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

+ Fast Attack +

Windriders [12 PL, 184pts]
. 8x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 8x Scatter Laser

+ Flyer +

Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [31 PL, 538pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ HQ +

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 67pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

+ Heavy Support +

Fire Prism [9 PL, 157pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

Fire Prism [9 PL, 157pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

Fire Prism [9 PL, 157pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

++ Total: [104 PL, 1998pts] ++


I suspect this list would leave me with no friends unless used in a tournament though. Would look cool on a display board mind.

I also really like the model of the scorpion.
I also like the approach of having three fire prism for target saturation.

What came to my mind is that you need to be careful with your jetbikes. Depending on the mission you typically play they are probably your best objective scoring unit. So infantry heavy opponents could probably out score you when you lose them.

I like the latest list. Some opposing lists will definitely have a very hard time dealing with this, its true. Meanwhile, hordes may be an issue for you. Could make for some swingy games. Final tweaks I'd make are starcannons on the CHE, drop the CTM on the scorpion, and change one of the skyrunner warlocks to a spiritseer. Saves 21 points, plus the 2 spare points you already have, enough to squeeze in a final scatbike.

Please trust me when I say this. CLOUD STRIKE the scorpion. You do not want to absorb 1 turn of knight shooting. Its brutal. Always have the scorpion in reserves to begin with.

I also just posted my saim hann idea for a list on here. Maybe you could incorporate warp hunters as well since they can hide totally behind cover and still shoot at the enemy. And up close they can auto hit with their D flail any units that charge them, or you could pay 3 points and webway strike a scorpion AND a warp hunter right behind some Knights and vaporize them. Then skip the guardians and drop in boat loads of swooping hawks. They get 4 shots each. Just some crazy ideas.

I would start the scorpion on the board. You potentially need to weather a round of fire against it, true, which is the point of target saturation. Deepstriking it means that the remaining 1300 points of your army may have been shot at twice, and there may not be much left by the time it arrives.

Hawks are cute for harrasment and late game objective grabbing. They are not killy though. Won't earn their points back, especially in mass. Warp hunters are an interesting choice but imho remain overcoated. Prefer prisms/nightspinners for the falcon chassis... Though our jets admittedly outshine any of the grav tanks.

Is the scorpion useful? I myself have the Cobra and let me say is not all that great.

It's fun though

I think horde wise you'll do fine. The scatter bikes are the ideal solution for that. Your opponent will try to kill your scorpion first..after that your fire prisms which will leave the bikes unarmed. With quicken they are really fast and can threaten your opponents horde. Also the fire prisms have a anti-horde mode aswell

Wow thanks for all your replies!

Orbei wrote:I like the latest list. Some opposing lists will definitely have a very hard time dealing with this, its true. Meanwhile, hordes may be an issue for you. Could make for some swingy games. Final tweaks I'd make are starcannons on the CHE, drop the CTM on the scorpion, and change one of the skyrunner warlocks to a spiritseer. Saves 21 points, plus the 2 spare points you already have, enough to squeeze in a final scatbike.

Argh but the coolness of all jetbikes (plus rangers...). Also I'm a little hesitant to drop the bright lances from the CHE as it's role in this list is really to take out enemy fliers.

warpedpig wrote:Please trust me when I say this. CLOUD STRIKE the scorpion. You do not want to absorb 1 turn of knight shooting. Its brutal. Always have the scorpion in reserves to begin with.

I also just posted my saim hann idea for a list on here. Maybe you could incorporate warp hunters as well since they can hide totally behind cover and still shoot at the enemy. And up close they can auto hit with their D flail any units that charge them, or you could pay 3 points and webway strike a scorpion AND a warp hunter right behind some Knights and vaporize them. Then skip the guardians and drop in boat loads of swooping hawks. They get 4 shots each. Just some crazy ideas.

Orbei wrote:I would start the scorpion on the board. You potentially need to weather a round of fire against it, true, which is the point of target saturation. Deepstriking it means that the remaining 1300 points of your army may have been shot at twice, and there may not be much left by the time it arrives.

Hawks are cute for harrasment and late game objective grabbing. They are not killy though. Won't earn their points back, especially in mass. Warp hunters are an interesting choice but imho remain overcoated. Prefer prisms/nightspinners for the falcon chassis... Though our jets admittedly outshine any of the grav tanks.

Hmm I've running some mathhammer and I really like the idea of deepstriking 20 guardians with plaforms against hordes, they actually kill them very points efficiently, also with celestial shield and protect are pretty resilient, with black guardians suprisingly killy.

I think I'll have to play it game by game as whether or not to deep strike the scorpion, I think there are arguments either way so it will be down to match up, think the only way to really figure it out will be getting some experience with the list.

I hadn't really thought about the warp hunter, it does seem a little expensive, though I guess if I was taking it I'd drop the fire prisms, which would overall free up points, against a doomed target it can do a lot of damage.

I thought about swooping hawks, but I thought that don't really kill enough for their points, and hordes that shoot back are going to kill them quite easily. I think even 10 of them would struggle to get rid of a guardsman squad (before morale). Would have been cool though, wish aspect warriors were stronger (other than reapers..).

Elian wrote:Is the scorpion useful? I myself have the Cobra and let me say is not all that great.

It's fun though

I'd say the scorpion's shooting is quite significantly stronger, 4D6 shots and then straight 3 damage (6 on a 6 to wound) means it's more reliable and good against a much greater variety of targets. With a bit of psychic support there's very little it won't have a good chance of one shotting.

Tzusam wrote:I think horde wise you'll do fine. The scatter bikes are the ideal solution for that. Your opponent will try to kill your scorpion first..after that your fire prisms which will leave the bikes unarmed. With quicken they are really fast and can threaten your opponents horde. Also the fire prisms have a anti-horde mode aswell

Hmm ok, I had been playing around a bit more with the list to make it more anti horde, basically dropping to just 3 scatter bikes, changing back to Eldrad, and running 20 guardians with 2 shuricannon plaforms which comes in at 2k. Not really as themey though. It's tricky I think so much comes down to meta. Are scatterbikes really that good vs hordes? My concern is if there's like 80 guardsman on the table (not unusual), does it kind of nullify their mobility as they can just get trapped, also without saim hann that move penalty really nerfs their shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I kind of think this might be better, it basically sacrifices 1 unit of rangers and 5 scatter bikes for the 20 guardians with plaftorms, and switch to eldrad and a warlock. Figure with protect they get a 4+ (2+ if you tank on the platform), 3++ 6+FNP, that's a tricky unit to shift, and great at deep striking vs hordes. Not sure I'm willing to sacrifice the theme of the all mechanised list though.


++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [32 PL, 717pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ Lord of War +

Scorpion [32 PL, 717pts]: Scatter Laser, Spirit Stones

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [25 PL, 500pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned

+ HQ +

Eldrad Ulthran [8 PL, 135pts]

Warlock [2 PL, 55pts]: 4. Protect/Jinx, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Guardian Defenders [9 PL, 190pts]: 20x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

Rangers [3 PL, 60pts]: 5x Ranger

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [44 PL, 782pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Craftworld Attribute: Alaitoc: Fieldcraft

+ HQ +

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 67pts]: Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

+ Fast Attack +

Windriders [4 PL, 69pts]
. 3x Windrider - Scatter Laser: 3x Scatter Laser

+ Heavy Support +

Fire Prism [9 PL, 157pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

Fire Prism [9 PL, 157pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

Fire Prism [9 PL, 157pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult

+ Flyer +

Crimson Hunter Exarch [9 PL, 175pts]: Two Bright Lances

++ Total: [101 PL, 1999pts] ++


I guess the other real concern would be how to deal with MSU armies.

Hmm ok, I had been playing around a bit more with the list to make it more anti horde, basically dropping to just 3 scatter bikes, changing back to Eldrad, and running 20 guardians with 2 shuricannon plaforms which comes in at 2k. Not really as themey though. It's tricky I think so much comes down to meta. Are scatterbikes really that good vs hordes? My concern is if there's like 80 guardsman on the table (not unusual), does it kind of nullify their mobility as they can just get trapped, also without saim hann that move penalty really nerfs their shooting.

In my experience 9 scatterbike do a lot against hordes (properly supported that is) i usually run them Biel tan for the warlord trait that gives free guide they become scary!
To me the problem isn't getting captured is resisting for more than one turn.

That's why i'm thinking to run them Alatoic...

I think you might miss the movability of the skyrunner farseer. Getting that doom off is crucial. Although I'm a fan of guardian blobs and they do the anti-horde job just fine keeping up their survivability costs alot of CP and powers. That's why I like the scatter bikes. There's a reason you see them show up in all major competitive lists instead of the guardians. Their range is also lackluster while the bikes have 36" 4T and a 2+ in cover. You can even cast protect on them for an even better one :+).
Just my 2 cents. In the end I would test both lists :-) and see what feels smoother for you.

Elian wrote:In my experience 9 scatterbike do a lot against hordes (properly supported that is) i usually run them Biel tan for the warlord trait that gives free guide they become scary!
To me the problem isn't getting captured is resisting for more than one turn.

That's why i'm thinking to run them Alatoic...

Cool thanks I'll give them a go!

Tzusam wrote:I think you might miss the movability of the skyrunner farseer. Getting that doom off is crucial. Although I'm a fan of guardian blobs and they do the anti-horde job just fine keeping up their survivability costs alot of CP and powers. That's why I like the scatter bikes. There's a reason you see them show up in all major competitive lists instead of the guardians. Their range is also lackluster while the bikes have 36" 4T and a 2+ in cover. You can even cast protect on them for an even better one :+).
Just my 2 cents. In the end I would test both lists :-) and see what feels smoother for you.

Thanks yeah I think I'm gonna have to test them out, but your point about them needing a lot of CP and powers is something I hadn't properly considered, definitely leaning towards the scatter bikes, I'll build towards the bikes list and test them out.

Another question, would you consider this an ok list for non tournament games? Or is this too much for a pick up game down the local store? I really don't want to be that guy, though I don't want to get smashed either lol, the eternal wargamers conundrum, apart from in 9th age (praise be).

Ielthan wrote:
Another question, would you consider this an ok list for non tournament games? Or is this too much for a pick up game down the local store? I really don't want to be that guy, though I don't want to get smashed either lol, the eternal wargamers conundrum, apart from in 9th age (praise be).

This really depends on your local meta. There are some people who will still cry cheese at the sight of a super heavy or FW model, though the Scorpion itself isn't really competitive. This looks like a decently strong list to me but its not like flier spam level of strong. I'd say try smaller points versions of the list and see how you feel about it. I'd save the Scorpion itself for 2000 points... if playing 1500, for example, you could swap it for a Hemlock and give that a try. Get a feel for what people are running near you and adjust accordingly if you feel its too strong.

 Elian wrote:

In my experience 9 scatterbike do a lot against hordes (properly supported that is) i usually run them Biel tan for the warlord trait that gives free guide they become scary!

I am afraight scatterbikes do not gain any benefit from Biel tan since the craftworld trait is limited to shurriken weapons, so only vanilla or cannonbikes.

Regarding the List at hand I have to agree with the other people that scatterbikes are just amazing at what they do.
But I also have to warn you that they will be absolute priority for any hord-ish opponent with a brain, increasing so with the number you put on the table. And if focused they are far from durable. If they go down you have no means to kill large amount of infantry and said opponents will likely out-score you, while ignoring your tanks.

Have to say though that a horde to me are 90+ Ork boy type of lists that when left unchecked just swarm you.

To end on a positive note: armor or elite heavy list will probably start sweating when they see the list

Jaeg I'm talking about the warlord trait my guy not the craftwolrd special rule!

My bad

Orbei wrote:

Ielthan wrote:
Another question, would you consider this an ok list for non tournament games? Or is this too much for a pick up game down the local store? I really don't want to be that guy, though I don't want to get smashed either lol, the eternal wargamers conundrum, apart from in 9th age (praise be).

This really depends on your local meta. There are some people who will still cry cheese at the sight of a super heavy or FW model, though the Scorpion itself isn't really competitive. This looks like a decently strong list to me but its not like flier spam level of strong. I'd say try smaller points versions of the list and see how you feel about it. I'd save the Scorpion itself for 2000 points... if playing 1500, for example, you could swap it for a Hemlock and give that a try. Get a feel for what people are running near you and adjust accordingly if you feel its too strong.

Jaeg wrote:

 Elian wrote:

In my experience 9 scatterbike do a lot against hordes (properly supported that is) i usually run them Biel tan for the warlord trait that gives free guide they become scary!

I am afraight scatterbikes do not gain any benefit from Biel tan since the craftworld trait is limited to shurriken weapons, so only vanilla or cannonbikes.

Regarding the List at hand I have to agree with the other people that scatterbikes are just amazing at what they do.
But I also have to warn you that they will be absolute priority for any hord-ish opponent with a brain, increasing so with the number you put on the table. And if focused they are far from durable. If they go down you have no means to kill large amount of infantry and said opponents will likely out-score you, while ignoring your tanks.

Have to say though that a horde to me are 90+ Ork boy type of lists that when left unchecked just swarm you.

To end on a positive note: armor or elite heavy list will probably start sweating when they see the list

Awesome! I'm really looking forward to getting this list together now. One thing occurred to me, I could soften the list a bit (and take a model I prefer) by changing out the CHE for a Nightwing, it's a bit more antihorde, nowhere near as good if I'm honest, but cheap, less likely to invoke cries of filth, and gives me enough points to take that last scatter bike and still have 16 points left over, 21 if I lose the CTM on the scorpion (though perhaps it's worth it for when cloudstriking?). Not really sure what to do with the 21 points actually, maybe keep the CTM and put singing spears on the 3 psykers? Put CTM's on all the vehicles? Could also upgrade the scorpion's secondary weapon but actually think scatter laser is the best choice, it shouldn't need any help obliterating vehicles to make a bright lance worth it.

Thinking I'll build towards this, and then if I'm using it in a more competitive game or tournament swap out the Nightwing for a CHE. Think this army could look amazing on the table, and pack some serious punch!

The nightwing is really good! Not quite as competitive as the CHE, but the CHE is perhaps the best plane in the game. Compare a nightwing to most faction's aircraft and they'd be quite envious. Its also a very cool model! I love how the wings can retract, super neat. As soon as I add one to this list I'm tempted to try to find a way to work in a second, but you can't have everything in life can you? Well, it could work if the 3 prisms were swapped for nightspinners...

Though I love the 3 prisms in this list, too!

Personally i feel you have to be insanely good at moving planes with the Nightwing.

Because the moment you retract your wings in face of an opponent with some experience you're toast.

Or again having the CTM means moving with a clear plan in mind extremely difficult when we face army like the IG.
They have so many models that moving a plane is no joke

Orbei wrote:The nightwing is really good! Not quite as competitive as the CHE, but the CHE is perhaps the best plane in the game. Compare a nightwing to most faction's aircraft and they'd be quite envious. Its also a very cool model! I love how the wings can retract, super neat. As soon as I add one to this list I'm tempted to try to find a way to work in a second, but you can't have everything in life can you? Well, it could work if the 3 prisms were swapped for nightspinners...

Though I love the 3 prisms in this list, too!

Yeah I think it looks pretty good too, it's really cheap for what you get, they do seem like the kind of unit that would operate best in pairs but oh well... It's a shame that 8th edition kind of doesn't reward manouevrability quite as much with the changes to vehicles which allowed it to really shine.
Tbh I prefer the phoenix bomber model but the nightwing's still very cool.

Elian wrote:Personally i feel you have to be insanely good at moving planes with the Nightwing.

Because the moment you retract your wings in face of an opponent with some experience you're toast.

Or again having the CTM means moving with a clear plan in mind extremely difficult when we face army like the IG.
They have so many models that moving a plane is no joke

The rule as written is kind of confusing:

Vector Shift: At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare
if it is operating with either Extended Wings or Retracted Wings. When operating with Retracted Wings and this
model Advances, add 24" to its Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of rolling a dice – it also
gains a 5+ invulnerable save until it switches to operating with Extended Wings. While operating with Extended
Wings, this model may be turned to face directly towards any one enemy model it has line of sight to instead of
performing its first pivot in the Movement phase (as per the Wings of Khaine ability), this model then adds 1
when making hit rolls against the chosen enemy model for the following Shooting phase, but also loses the Hard
to Hit ability until it switches to operating with Retracted Wings.

Can you just use retracted wings and operate like a normal flyer? It doesn't have to advance right? When operating in extended wing mode, can you opt not to use the pivot to get +1 to hit ability and lose hard to hit, or do you have to. Both sides of the rule are written in quite an unclear way it seems.

If you do have to either advance in retracted wing or lose hard to hit in extended wings (every time you want to actually shoot, so always) it makes it much harder to use, but still pretty cool. I think it would be challenging to use as the sole flyer regardless, but fun and cheap (in points...)!

In terms of more tweaks if you lose a fire prism, add a nightspinner, you can then switch the flyer out for a phoenix bomber with nightfire missiles, gives a lot more antihorde lfor a bit less anti tank, leaves you 1pt over though, so would have to probably lose the spirit stones off the scorpion which isn't great. Could go 3 nightspinners and 2 nightwings which would be fun vs hordes, better magnetise lol. That feels like it would be a meta choice though. Think I'll go with the nightwing 3 fireprism option for now.

I don't think you can but you're right it's not clear as it seems.
Someone wants to jump on that?

Ielthan wrote:
Vector Shift: At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare
if it is operating with either Extended Wings or Retracted Wings. When operating with Retracted Wings and this
model Advances, add 24" to its Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of rolling a dice – it also
gains a 5+ invulnerable save until it switches to operating with Extended Wings. While operating with Extended
Wings, this model may be turned to face directly towards any one enemy model it has line of sight to instead of
performing its first pivot in the Movement phase (as per the Wings of Khaine ability), this model then adds 1
when making hit rolls against the chosen enemy model for the following Shooting phase, but also loses the Hard
to Hit ability until it switches to operating with Retracted Wings.

Can you just use retracted wings and operate like a normal flyer? It doesn't have to advance right? When operating in extended wing mode, can you opt not to use the pivot to get +1 to hit ability and lose hard to hit, or do you have to. Both sides of the rule are written in quite an unclear way it seems.

If you do have to either advance in retracted wing or lose hard to hit in extended wings (every time you want to actually shoot, so always) it makes it much harder to use, but still pretty cool. I think it would be challenging to use as the sole flyer regardless, but fun and cheap (in points...)!

You must pick either retracted wings or extended wings each movement phase; however, the effects they bestow are both optional. You do not have to advance when operating in retracted wings, nothing states it is required. You would not gain the invuln save unless you do so. You could advance turn 1, gain the invuln save, and remain in retracted wings for the remainder of the game, maintaining the invuln save without needing to advance in subsequent turns because you have not switched to extended wings. In extended wings you may use the pivot ability to gain the +1 and give up hard to hit, but again you do not have to. Generally, you will want to stay in retracted wings 90% of the time. Extended is useful if you have limited movement options and need to pivot immediately to a model behind you, for example, or if you are on a degraded profile and care more about the +1 to hit, accepting you will probably be shot out of the sky next turn anyway. Its a useful option to have but generally retracted will be your default.

Essentially, the nightwing is extremely easy and flexible to use. Wings of Khaine already makes it so you have incredible movement options. Vector shift only adds more. Something would need to go horribly, horribly wrong for you to have no movement options.

Hmm ok thanks for clearing that up man, I'm not sure they're the best thought out rules in the game, though I think the nightwing was a very early forgeworld flyer before there were actual 40k flyers rules iirc, so it's kind of trying to adapt a rule really written for a different game. Not sure you'd use them too much, I guess if you're in a tight spot they could have their uses.

Really happy with this list now, will be ordering some models soon enough! Thanks for all the help guys!

The ambition is to have it in this sort of theme a famous model painter came up with, I painted a test dire avenger in it years ago (nowhere near this standard though!), but want to try it on some vehicles. Better get the airbrush fixed...

http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img46273965445da.jpg

Yeah it wasn't clear at all!

Good news everybody!