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I know that stepping into this conversation is just asking for disaster but here I go...

I personally could not care less about female Custodes. Custodes were a background faction for most of the time that I have been apart of the 40k community so when they got a codex and models it was basically square zero for lore. Personally, if they really wanted to push a more "inclusive" angle I would have loved to see Custodes portrayed as a more androgynous group. We talk about how this humans are created rather than born so why on earth do their reproductive organs matter? Lean into that inhuman killing machine lens and make them appear as something else entirely, why does their gender or sex even matter when they are barely human? I think that Mechanicus does a better job at this because we are all culturally conditioned to see things as masculine and feminine. Our language is gendered for better or worse and we as humans look at one another and apply labels in order to better interact with one another so that we aren't starting at zero with every single meeting with another person. We infer things based on appearance and that will never change because that is natural. When you look at Mechanicus they are so far removed from immediate gender that most people don't even consider it.

Hell, I miss when Necrons were just mindless killing machines from space with a touch of eldritch horror thrown over them.

The only thing that I do want to keep as far as gendered lore is all male Space Marines. Yeah, it has absolutely no basis in reality but it is one of the last vestiges of the lore that portrays humanity as a backwards anti-science barely functioning society. Part of the appeal of the setting to me is the fact that humanity as a whole are so backwards and ignorant that they pray to toasters because they don't REALLY understand technology at all. The push to make humanity more heroic and progressive ruins the appeal of the setting for me. I still get a good laugh at how ridiculous the lore is no matter how serious it wants to take itself, a big reason why I am a huge fan of Fabius Bile. He is a grumpy old lens for the reader to look at the world and see how absurd it all is.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Another bangin' post from catbarf. Nice.

As I've been thinking about all this I've come to another realization and just want to post about a shift in the demographic locally that's been really bugging me. And that's that my game shop has gone from blue-collar to white-collar.

When I was showing up to hobby night 10 years ago, we had a security guard or two, an ex boxer, a mailman, a bike repair guy, the shop-keeps, a commission painter, a short-order cook, a nurse, and a smattering of computer engineers along with a number of local students.

These days when I show up to hobby night it's more computer engineers, data analists, marketing strategists, hardware prototypers and other higher-education types. It's been a heck of a shift. There's been more women, and that's nice (none of whom I've seen play, just paint), but the occupational shift has been stark. Incidentally the old crew was more racially diverse, and the new crew is predominently white and asian.

I mostly chalk that up to local demographics shifting about, but I have seen one or two of them show up on nights when cheaper games are being played, Battletech iirc, which makes me think that the aggressive churn of 40k might also be part of it.

Expanding on this?

Who were my friends and I the last time I regularly played? Well, I for one was a shop mook. Minimum wage kind of stuff. Then, after a year of homelessness, I got my lardy arse into a different gear. 15 or so years and not a little luck later? I’m now a professional fraud investigator. Not pulling in megabucks, but on a nicely comfortable wage. So I’m now white collar, when I was blue collar.

As I explained though, the observation that GW has experienced sustained and significant growth at the same time they’ve sought greater diversity isn’t and can’t be the explanation in itself. Nothing in the world is that straight forward. But. It does fly directly in the face of the “go woke go broke” nonsense argument, because the worst we can imply is it’s been completely neutral.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I know that stepping into this conversation is just asking for disaster but here I go...

I personally could not care less about female Custodes. Custodes were a background faction for most of the time that I have been apart of the 40k community so when they got a codex and models it was basically square zero for lore. Personally, if they really wanted to push a more "inclusive" angle I would have loved to see Custodes portrayed as a more androgynous group. We talk about how this humans are created rather than born so why on earth do their reproductive organs matter? Lean into that inhuman killing machine lens and make them appear as something else entirely, why does their gender or sex even matter when they are barely human? I think that Mechanicus does a better job at this because we are all culturally conditioned to see things as masculine and feminine. Our language is gendered for better or worse and we as humans look at one another and apply labels in order to better interact with one another so that we aren't starting at zero with every single meeting with another person. We infer things based on appearance and that will never change because that is natural. When you look at Mechanicus they are so far removed from immediate gender that most people don't even consider it.

Hell, I miss when Necrons were just mindless killing machines from space with a touch of eldritch horror thrown over them.

The only thing that I do want to keep as far as gendered lore is all male Space Marines. Yeah, it has absolutely no basis in reality but it is one of the last vestiges of the lore that portrays humanity as a backwards anti-science barely functioning society. Part of the appeal of the setting to me is the fact that humanity as a whole are so backwards and ignorant that they pray to toasters because they don't REALLY understand technology at all. The push to make humanity more heroic and progressive ruins the appeal of the setting for me. I still get a good laugh at how ridiculous the lore is no matter how serious it wants to take itself, a big reason why I am a huge fan of Fabius Bile. He is a grumpy old lens for the reader to look at the world and see how absurd it all is.

Sisters are a better army to show the backwards ways of humanity...

In what way?

Well equipped, well armed, well trained? Largely independent of the wider Body Politic.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In what way?
Well equipped, well armed, well trained? Largely independent of the wider Body Politic.

The broader sisterhood spans every tier of humanity in 40k, from scattered hospitallers on backwater worlds to the almost bene gesserit-like famulous amongst the noble houses.
As guards of pilgrim routes and holy sites they interact with civilians on a day to day basis unlike the militarum or marines and by their very nature find themselves both as champion for and against the excesses of Imperial religion and caste, and the sisterhood as a whole works side by side with many other organisations rather than as absolute subordinates or with transhuman aloofness.

It has always been a shame IMO that GW as put so much focus into the demigod-on-demigod endless war of the heresy and so little into eras like the age of apostasy.

As for the custodes, they represent 40k humanity about as well as the men of iron.

A fanatical, superstitious, death cult that uses martyrdom (voluntary or otherwise) as a weapon? It does track.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
In what way?

Well equipped, well armed, well trained? Largely independent of the wider Body Politic.

A traditional, superstitious army built on the faith in the Imperial Creed and rejection of science.

As opposed to a futuristic (pseudo) scientific post-human army built on the Imperal Truth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus the timing of their formation illustrates the decay of humanity.

But they don’t reject science? Well. No more than the wider Imperium doesn’t apply the scientific method, instead grubbing around for old blueprints and that.\

Though if you’re meaning “the backwards way of humanity in the modern Imperium” I get you. Because The Imperium as it stands was clearly never what The Emperor intended.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But they don’t reject science? Well. No more than the wider Imperium doesn’t apply the scientific method, instead grubbing around for old blueprints and that.\

Though if you’re meaning “the backwards way of humanity in the modern Imperium” I get you. Because The Imperium as it stands was clearly never what The Emperor intended.

Yeah, I was trying to not come across as attacking religion in general while saying the Imperium has regressed from an age of enlightenment to one of superstitious beliefs...

if you want to talk about the religious themes in 40k, you can't really be sensitive to religious people, because those themes were written with the atheistic zeal of a 14 year old who is forced to attend church multiple times a week. the religious themes in 40k very much are attacking religion in general

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
if you want to talk about the religious themes in 40k, you can't really be sensitive to religious people, because those themes were written with the atheistic zeal of a 14 year old who is forced to attend church multiple times a week. the religious themes in 40k very much are attacking religion in general

Actually I think 40k attacks organised religion but not faith in general. Especially given most of the gods are real, divine miracles observably happen, and literal daemons can invade reality but are weakened by faith.

I’d agree with Haighus. Faith in The Emperor isn’t in itself shown as evil. But now that faith is weaponised via enforced ignorance is.

Mod edit - removed.

Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:
Mod edit - removed.

The fact you believe that shows you are incapable of parsing fact from fiction. Like seriously, you've been so conditioned to bark whenever anybody says anything about representation using the buzzwords they teach you to fear (CRT, DEI, Woke etc.) that you didn't even register the patent absurdity of what you just wrote.

Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:
Mod edit - removed.

Wait till you hear about the Faithful Destruction system they are testing whereby GW will supply recycling points for all Tournaments, but each model that falls in battle must be removed from the game to be recycled. Creating actual loss for players. Part of a move to increase immersion within the game and also make games really feel nailbitingly exciting!

Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:
Unbelievable.

Correct. So don't.

Is there some other Bell(end) Of Lost Souls I don't know about? Cos I just held my nose and had a look, and could see no such article...

 BrookM wrote:

ITS NOT A ROOOMA!

Sorry. Couldn’t resist.

 Overread wrote:

Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:
Mod edit - removed.

Wait till you hear about the Faithful Destruction system they are testing whereby GW will supply recycling points for all Tournaments, but each model that falls in battle must be removed from the game to be recycled. Creating actual loss for players. Part of a move to increase immersion within the game and also make games really feel nailbitingly exciting!

You're not playing RAW? It says models that fail saving throws suffer damage and are destroyed. I always keep a hammer in my dice bag. It's a lot easier than doing it by hand.

Hammer?

Hobby Tourist.

Us reels men use a blender. Under mother’s supervision.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hammer?

Hobby Tourist.

Us reels men use a blender. Under mother’s supervision.

I use a variety of tools to reflect how the model died. Boy Scout Flamethrower for flamer deaths, hammer for models that get crushed underfoot, butcher knife for slicing... Still looking for a good analog for a lascannon, though.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hammer?

Hobby Tourist.

Us reels men use a blender. Under mother’s supervision.

Drink the remains of your dead.
Gain the strength and wisdom that failed them and add it to your own.
It serves as a warning to the rest.
Also, you'll roll better afterwards.

 waefre_1 wrote:

Drink the remains of your dead.
Gain the strength and wisdom that failed them and add it to your own.
It serves as a warning to the rest.
Also, you'll roll better afterwards.

The Kroot way...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

AldarionTelcontar wrote: "Culture and traditional views" are product of society responding to reality.

Culture also says that men correspond with blue, and women with pink, and- oh. Hang on, pink used to be a masculine colour.

Uh, let's see, culture dictated that men wore stockings and skirts? Oh, but now, that's just supposed to be women.

How about cultures around the proliferation of slavery? And those "traditional views"?

No. Culture and tradition are not based in "reality". They are artificial. They are made up by people.

Made up by people in response to real challenges. And I'm not talking about surface-level detail that you are focusing on.

And even with surface-level detail...

Pink used to be masculine color because it is close to red, which is color of blood. Which meant it was color of war. Red and pink only became feminine colors in 1800s and 1900s.

Culture always dictated that women wore dresses, because they were a) too valuable to risk in, and b) not as capable in, a fight. Men by contrast always wore less restrictive clothing - now, "what" that exactly meant differed. It could be trousers, it could be tunics, it could be skirts... but by and large, there was always a significant difference. In some areas men did wear long robes that were not dissimilar to what women wore, but that was a consequence of necessities of climate - long robes can help ventilation and heat control in the desert (which is why Crusaders wore surcoat, a fashion that spread to rest of Europe, but was then gradually abandoned following the fall of the last Crusader strongholds in the Holy Land).

Proliferation of slavery had little to do with culture. In fact, Christian Church had been trying to ban slavery since 4th century AD... yet first general (as opposed to specific - e.g. against enslaving Christians) bans against slavery were in Goryeo Dynasty in Korea (956 AD), Bologna (1256 AD), France (1315 AD), Sweden (1335 AD), Ragusa (1416 AD), Castille (1477 AD)...

And while part of the reason why women were kept out of the military is that it is slowed to sacrifice the childbearing portion of your population in war when you don't know how long any of you will live, part of it is the simple fact that women are, on average, less physically capable than men.

And yet, still capable enough in 40k. Evidently so.

So humans in 40k... aren't actually human?

With Sisters of Battle, you can claim genetic engineering and faith. Not so much with the Imperial Guard.

But as I said - major part of appeal of 40k are its pseudo-medieval aesthetics and attitudes. Adeptus Custodes and Space Marines in particular are akin to medieval religious orders, and you will not have found women in any medieval religious military order, for a large number of disparate reasons.

So why are Sisters of Battle, a religious military order who take stronger aesthetic cues from medieval periods than most Chapters of Space Marines, okay in the setting then? If "pseudo-medieval aesthetics and attitudes" are a "major part of the appeal of 40k", then why are Sisters of Battle, a medieval religious military order, all okay if apparently that's something "you will not have found"?

You won't find men in Sisters of Battle. So why have women in Space Marines?

And yes, Sisters of Battle are perfectly okay within the medieval-themed setting - if you think they shouldn't be based on my logic, I'd suggest you read a bit about the Middle Ages. Female religious orders existed in Middle Ages. Female monasticism was in fact extremely widespread. Sisters of Battle merely expand on that... by using power armor to allow women to fight on par with whatever horrors they are facing. I see no problem with that. Sure, there were no female *military* orders in the Middle Ages... because women are physically extremely disadvantaged in warfare. But give woman a power armor, and that suddenly stops being an issue.

What you will never have found (at least in the Middle Ages) is a religious order that allows *both* men and women to serve together.

Like, do you see the problem in your argument there? If 40k is apparently slaved to this idea that "we must accurately portray historical armies to be true to the appeal of 40k" (ignoring the fact that Custodes and Space Marines are actually technologically augmented supersoldiers in powered armour with firearms and come from all manner of ethnicities and cultures, none of which are accurate to any real world culture or history), then Sisters of Battle shouldn't be permitted either.

I never said 40k is "slaved to the idea". But 40k has several very clear inspirations, one of which are European Middle Ages. You destroy those in favor of whatever, you destroy the setting itself and turn it into something bland and forgettable.

Custodes too are a monastic order. You want female Custodes? Introduce a female order dedicated to protecting the Emperor! Perhaps an Order of Sisters of Battle, or a separate one entirely.

 AldarionTelcontar wrote:
What you will never have found (at least in the Middle Ages) is a religious order that allows *both* men and women to serve together.

And this isn't inherently relevant to gender-inclusivity in 40k. GW is fully free to make any faction they wish mixed-gender.

 AldarionTelcontar wrote:
What you will never have found (at least in the Middle Ages) is a religious order that allows *both* men and women to serve together.

So, Sisters (a religious order) should stay female-only, but a non-religious order (most Marine chapters) should be free to mix genders?

Black Templars are pretty religious, but Space Wolves aren't (or at least, not Middle Ages religious). Nor are Ultramarines. Or Blood Angels. Dark Angels? Nah. White Scars, not so much. Need I go on?

 AldarionTelcontar wrote:

What you will never have found (at least in the Middle Ages) is a religious order that allows *both* men and women to serve together.

They also didn't have power armours and plasma guns. Also, marines are not religious orders, they're among the few people who can get away with not thinking that the Emperor is divine.

I never said 40k is "slaved to the idea". But 40k has several very clear inspirations, one of which are European Middle Ages. You destroy those in favor of whatever, you destroy the setting itself and turn it into something bland and forgettable.

Nonsense. Yes, European middle-ages is one inspiration among many. And indeed one can model their space marine chapter after medieval religious knightly order. Dark Angels are such chapter, and so are Black Templars. But Space Wolves are nor are many other chapters. A big part of appeal of marines is that you can customise them with different flavours, so making them women absolutely should be part of that customisation palette.

Just before we go any further there's already men in the Sisters of Battle army

https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/Missionary-with-Chainsword?queryID=bdabfe22eab9af5537d4815d6d59c972

https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/Grey-Knights-Preacher-with-Chainsword?queryID=bdabfe22eab9af5537d4815d6d59c972

I'm fairly sure there were a few more but they were likely finecast/metal and removed but would likely return with future plastic releases

Also honestly not sure if these are men or women under the armour
https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/Crusaders?queryID=bdabfe22eab9af5537d4815d6d59c972


Oh and these ones too can be male
https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/Adepta-Sororitas-Penitent-Engines-2020?queryID=bdabfe22eab9af5537d4815d6d59c972

Neither of those are Sisters of Battle though.

That's like saying Grey Knights have women because they've shared a codex with the inquisition in the past.