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Mostly.

Does it make sense for a space marine to run scared? Does it make sense that a 10,000 year veteran of the long war is EVEN MORE likely to run than a regular space marine? Does it make sense for a soulless, mindless Necron Warrior to run? Or a Termagant who's sole purpose is to devour, when Synapse is blanketing the planet?

Generally, no. So I propose to remove morale as a universal mechanic from the game. Some units would get rules giving them morale penalties, though-only those who it makes sense to run away.

So, Cultists from CSM would have a Morale rule.
The Guard Dex would have a book-wide rule for Morale, applying harshly to Conscripts, a bit less to Infantry Squads, and least of all to Vets and Scions.
Grots could also have Morale, but NOT Killa Kans.

Any ideas on how to better implement this?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Mostly.

Does it make sense for a space marine to run scared? Does it make sense that a 10,000 year veteran of the long war is EVEN MORE likely to run than a regular space marine? Does it make sense for a soulless, mindless Necron Warrior to run? Or a Termagant who's sole purpose is to devour, when Synapse is blanketing the planet?

Generally, no. So I propose to remove morale as a universal mechanic from the game. Some units would get rules giving them morale penalties, though-only those who it makes sense to run away.

So, Cultists from CSM would have a Morale rule.
The Guard Dex would have a book-wide rule for Morale, applying harshly to Conscripts, a bit less to Infantry Squads, and least of all to Vets and Scions.
Grots could also have Morale, but NOT Killa Kans.

Any ideas on how to better implement this?

Not a fan.
Simply put especially on GEQ, there is an army allready with army wide morale penalties.
AND MORALE management becomes basically a handicap ranging between 70 pts /1000 pts game to 150 / 2000 pts game.

Its a bad mechanic, it's questionable, it's not justified, even less so then state right now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

10,000 year veteran of the long war is EVEN MORE likely to run than a regular space marine

Just because a CSM isn't afraid anymore , does not mean he doesn't know when to decide to pull a tactical retreat.
Especially those that actually survived that long.

You remove moral, then you get the old 20x Conscript Armies mess again. If anything, they need to make moral MORE of a threat.

For the fluff argument: It's doesn't just mean "runs away screaming", but it could be something as simple as " pushed into making a mistake that has tragic consequences". I always looked at it as when my Deathwatch broke to moral they didn't get "scared", they just accidentally shot one of their own guys, or even they accidentally drop a grenade under stress.

There are literally multitudes of reasons a moral break doesn't have to be fear related. Stress under extreme pressure causes breaks in the staunchest of veterans.

I agree morale probably needs to be more of a threat, but I'd like ATSKNF should be a little better, even if its just a "roll 2 pick the lowest" instead of "maybe using it makes them more scared" ability.

I don't think I'd mind it being removed *for most armies* - Orks, Guardsmen, Tyranids not in synapse range, Cultists, GSC, etc etc should all need to be at risk of morale though. Them simply having a potential weakness to morale compared to nearly every other faction being immune to it would show their inferior morale better than any number on their leadership stat would.

I've always felt that it wasn't people actively running all the time, but rather squads getting disorganized, models getting picked off without requiring the allocation of in game resources, or models getting lost in the confusion of a fight. Basically getting thrown into disarray.

Cold-logic necrons are less likely to get thrown into disarray then marines, which are less likely then guardsmen.

Synapsed Nids can't be put into disarray because hive-mind, but this does fall apart with things like poxwalkers and some other fearless unit getting slaughtered and not taking any morale loss.

Morale should absolutely stay a part of the game, in fact fearless should be changed so that all units can still be affected. Maybe change fearless to a limit on how many models can be lost due to morale instead of a blanket immunity to it.

 LunarSol wrote:
I agree morale probably needs to be more of a threat, but I'd like ATSKNF should be a little better, even if its just a "roll 2 pick the lowest" instead of "maybe using it makes them more scared" ability.

Sure, if you pay 5 pts per squad.
Then we can discuss that. else not.

Id rather just bring in pin mechanics from bolt action.

In 40k its really hard to say anyone would straight abandon post, especially armies like space marines, but even the normal mooks tend to be ether fanatical or super scared of the officers watching their backs.

Pins in bolt action comes from getting hit rather than wounds, with each pin adding a to hit penalties and requires leadership tests to do stuff.

it would need to be heavily modified but i think it represents moral way better.

 Desubot wrote:
Id rather just bring in pin mechanics from bolt action.

In 40k its really hard to say anyone would straight abandon post, especially armies like space marines, but even the normal mooks tend to be ether fanatical or super scared of the officers watching their backs.

Pins in bolt action comes from getting hit rather than wounds, with each pin adding a to hit penalties and requires leadership tests to do stuff.

it would need to be heavily modified but i think it represents moral way better.

That seems better.
Infact, you could exclude things like poxwalkers, Rippers.

Let synapse and similar effects remove pin markers easily.

With bolt action style pinning mechanism, how do you expect it to function for units like knights or other single model units (units that ignore morale due to how rules are structured)

 skchsan wrote:
With bolt action style pinning mechanism, how do you expect it to function for units like knights or other single model units (units that ignore morale due to how rules are structured)

In bolt action vehicules are suffering pins accordingly to the quality of the crew, and whether they actually suffer any damage.

Which you could implement, surely.

Characters may just be treated as well as infantry, although they may benefit from their special rules.

I always thought it was funny that Orkz would be considered one of the "inferior morale" races. Compared to humans, they should be nearly fearless. Humanity is genetically programmed to flee from dangerous situations. Orkz, on the other hand, were BUILT for war. They're programmed to run INTO dangerous situations, not away from them. (Gretchin, however, ARE "programmed" to be cowardly, so atleast that makes some sense.)

But I DO like the "alternative" explanations folks have been tossing out. I can imagine a group of Orkz, after losing a Morale test, fighting each other over who's in charge now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Side note: the weirdest thing is when Drones fail a Morale test. They're literally robots.

 flandarz wrote:
I always thought it was funny that Orkz would be considered one of the "inferior morale" races. Compared to humans, they should be nearly fearless. Humanity is genetically programmed to flee from dangerous situations. Orkz, on the other hand, were BUILT for war. They're programmed to run INTO dangerous situations, not away from them. (Gretchin, however, ARE "programmed" to be cowardly, so atleast that makes some sense.)

But I DO like the "alternative" explanations folks have been tossing out. I can imagine a group of Orkz, after losing a Morale test, fighting each other over who's in charge now.

Well let aside the blood axes!

I imagine robots behing hit by debrits or scatter, or getting a critical error for whatever reason, or even sometimes obeying to savior protocols as I think it at least used to be stated the tau don't see them as mere cannon fodder.

Only the necrons I don't know how to picture, but why not imagine that this one teleports away from the heat of battle after being injured as well?

It would be wonderful for vehicles and monsters to suffer morale effects. In Tactical Assault: Combat Cards you can retreat a model/unit directly away from an attack to reduce damage inflicted, and I had a wonderful game where a Carnifex was pushed back alone a road that an enemy tank was sighted along. Good times, put it gives an element of player control.

 skchsan wrote:
With bolt action style pinning mechanism, how do you expect it to function for units like knights or other single model units (units that ignore morale due to how rules are structured)

Most vehicles and monsters have those as keywords so making specific variables that cause pins could be done

although i suppose the easiest way to shoehorn it in is to specify that only weapons of a certain ST on hits will cause them to flinch or a certain AP.
so say a weapon that hits with a wound mod of 4+ or better will cause a pin.

Nurglitch wrote:
It would be wonderful for vehicles and monsters to suffer morale effects. In Tactical Assault: Combat Cards you can retreat a model/unit directly away from an attack to reduce damage inflicted, and I had a wonderful game where a Carnifex was pushed back alone a road that an enemy tank was sighted along. Good times, put it gives an element of player control.

Stealing from this, then, may I propose the following rule:
'Tactical Retreat'. Every time a unit is selected as a target for an attack in the shooting phase, they may voluntarily make a tactical retreat. They may move up to their move value, but must end this move further away from the nearest enemy unit. The retreating unit gains the benefits of any cover they move into, but can still be attacked even if they are not visible to the targeting unit or are out of range after moving. INFANTRY units do not have to move in order to gain the benefits of a tactical retreat, all other units must move at least 3".
Any attack targeting a unit which has tactically retreated gains +1 to armor saves, (in addition to any cover benefits,) but they cannot fire overwatch, and on their next turn they cannot move, use psychic powers, shoot, or charge.
A unit may only make a tactical retreat once per turn.

(Then, change Ultramarines so that they interact with Tactical Retreat, instead of Falling Back.)

It's a modified version of going to ground that allows units to dive behind walls or into trenches as well, and covers vehicles. Certain weapons could also force certain units to make a Tactical Retreat under certain circumstances, (For example, forcing what's effectively a leadership test on 2d6?)

Either all in, or all out.

GW either needs to eliminate morale from the game (not particularly a fan of that) or needs to remove most of the ways to circumvent or ignore it (which I would prefer, including making pinning a usable tactic in the game).

Yeah, it sucks when your guys falls back out of your control. But even marines, tyranids and necrons know when to make a tactical withdraw from a bad situation.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Mostly.

Does it make sense for a space marine to run scared? Does it make sense that a 10,000 year veteran of the long war is EVEN MORE likely to run than a regular space marine? Does it make sense for a soulless, mindless Necron Warrior to run? Or a Termagant who's sole purpose is to devour, when Synapse is blanketing the planet?

Generally, no. So I propose to remove morale as a universal mechanic from the game. Some units would get rules giving them morale penalties, though-only those who it makes sense to run away.

So, Cultists from CSM would have a Morale rule.
The Guard Dex would have a book-wide rule for Morale, applying harshly to Conscripts, a bit less to Infantry Squads, and least of all to Vets and Scions.
Grots could also have Morale, but NOT Killa Kans.

Any ideas on how to better implement this?

This doesn't seem like an unreasonable approach, but it does rob leadership-targeting factions (Night Lords and pretty much anyone else with a leadership debuff chapter tactic) of their main gimmick. If you haven't see it yet, you might take a peek at the discussion going on in this thread:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/780496.page

Basically, I propose doing away morale casualties in favor of having units lose the ability to benefit from certain stratagems and special abilities. This removes the weirdness of death company and khorne berzerkers running away from the battlefield and actually makes morale-related abilities more likely to matter against small, elite units. The idea being that marines are unlikely to effectively remove themselves from a fight, but they might reasonably get thrown off their rhythm by weapons and abilities designed to do that.

Going back to Epic-style Blast markers, it might be something to have a unit take a blast marker when it's shot at, and take a blast marker when it suffers wounds. Roll a D6 and add a unit's blast markers, and the result over the unit's Ld is its penalty to hit in the following player turn.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I agree morale probably needs to be more of a threat, but I'd like ATSKNF should be a little better, even if its just a "roll 2 pick the lowest" instead of "maybe using it makes them more scared" ability.

Sure, if you pay 5 pts per squad.
Then we can discuss that. else not.

Why 5 points? That seems awfully specific. I'm not sure why a rule designed to represent a units fearlessness should result in more models fleeing than if it was ignored ever.

 LunarSol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I agree morale probably needs to be more of a threat, but I'd like ATSKNF should be a little better, even if its just a "roll 2 pick the lowest" instead of "maybe using it makes them more scared" ability.

Sure, if you pay 5 pts per squad.
Then we can discuss that. else not.

Why 5 points? That seems awfully specific. I'm not sure why a rule designed to represent a units fearlessness should result in more models fleeing than if it was ignored ever.

Actually sorry: 10 pts.

and why?

Because
A: That is a piece of equipment of R&H that does excactly that, an ARMY ACTUALLY REQUIRING MORALE MANAGMENT, and playing therfore constantly with a handicap.

B: CSM don't have ATSKNF, cost more then marines and get a pitiful +1 through 10 pts icon aswell.


Ergo, PAY for it like everyone else, infact PAY first for ATSKNF and then we can talk, because everything else is just unequal long pikes again.

I think Morale should stay, but some things should be modified to make it actually DO something in more cases (or do something less).

I'd actually remove the "immune to Morale" Stratagem altogether, first of all.
Then I'd make ATSKNF work by only ever removing 1 model (because that model isn't technically running away, but rather dragging a grievously wounded Marine off the battlefield or something like that).
And then I would add that same rule to Chaos Marines, albeit using a different name and justification. VotlW should be outright immunity to Morale

Finally, I'd add something to the core Morale rules that makes bigger units less vulnerable to small losses,b ut more vulnerable to huge losses. I.e. each model above 10 in the unit at the start of the game gives +1LD to the unit for the Battle (to a max of LD20 or something), but this bonus is lost if the unit is reduced below 10 models.

So 30 Cultists would have a maxed out LD20 until below 10 models
Basically making big units have to suffer huge casualties before they start running, but once they do, they run hard with no way to ignore it (because we removed the strat).

-

Wait, CSM cost more than equivalent SM now?

Although I'd second that Insane Bravery strategem. Such a crock...

I'm not in favour of the VotLW being outright immunity to morale, especially since the BL gets a +1, and Word Bearers get a legion rule equivalent to ATSKNF. Plus, you don't get to be a VotLW by dying.

When a unit suffers wounds (not damage), check against it's Ld value. If wounds suffered exceeds the Ld, then the unit [INSERT PROPOSED PENALTY SYSTEM HERE].

Option 1:
The unit may not move or charge in the next movement phase, except to make a fall back move. Also, the unit can only target the closest enemy in the next turn, and fires as if firing overwatch.

 skchsan wrote:
I feel like morale value should be reversed.

Ld 10 = Ld 1
.
.
.
Ld 1 = Ld 10

When a unit suffers wounds (not damage), check against it's Ld value. If wounds suffered exceeds the Ld, then the unit [INSERT PROPOSED PENALTY SYSTEM HERE].

Does a saved wound count?
And what about FNP equivalents?

And what would you recommend the penalty be? Because running away doesn't make sense for a lot of armies.

 skchsan wrote:
When a unit suffers wounds (not damage), check against it's Ld value. If wounds suffered exceeds the Ld, then the unit [INSERT PROPOSED PENALTY SYSTEM HERE].

So like after rolling to wound, but before saving throws and ignoring wounds?

Nurglitch wrote:
Wait, CSM cost more than equivalent SM now?

Although I'd second that Insane Bravery strategem. Such a crock...

I'm not in favour of the VotLW being outright immunity to morale, especially since the BL gets a +1, and Word Bearers get a legion rule equivalent to ATSKNF. Plus, you don't get to be a VotLW by dying.

Tac is now 12, has ATSNKF, Doctrines.

Csm are 13

 JNAProductions wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I feel like morale value should be reversed.

Ld 10 = Ld 1
.
.
.
Ld 1 = Ld 10

When a unit suffers wounds (not damage), check against it's Ld value. If wounds suffered exceeds the Ld, then the unit [INSERT PROPOSED PENALTY SYSTEM HERE].

Does a saved wound count?
And what about FNP equivalents?

And what would you recommend the penalty be? Because running away doesn't make sense for a lot of armies.

Well the reversing system was a brain fart. Realized it doesn't work at all.

As for the saves, I was just throwing the idea out there and not really thought through, but I'd say count the number to successful to wound rolls - to reflect ducking for cover, even if the bullets are simply grazing you.

A rough suggestion is edited above - I think it would be interesting if hail of bullets could stop an enemy advance & reduce their fire power.

If a titan was getting pegged with a few lasgun shots it would just ignore it. But if lascannons are knocking on it's ion shields, it would scramble to adjust their targetting towards the dev's shooting those lascannons on it but can't pin point where the shots came from because it wasn't focusing on them? Just a thought.

As for existing ignore morale abilities/functions, you can alter them to function to ignore the effects of pinning on a certain roll.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Wait, CSM cost more than equivalent SM now?

Although I'd second that Insane Bravery strategem. Such a crock...

I'm not in favour of the VotLW being outright immunity to morale, especially since the BL gets a +1, and Word Bearers get a legion rule equivalent to ATSKNF. Plus, you don't get to be a VotLW by dying.

Tac is now 12, has ATSNKF, Doctrines.

Csm are 13

Huh, does anyone take them now?

Nurglitch wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Wait, CSM cost more than equivalent SM now?

Although I'd second that Insane Bravery strategem. Such a crock...

I'm not in favour of the VotLW being outright immunity to morale, especially since the BL gets a +1, and Word Bearers get a legion rule equivalent to ATSKNF. Plus, you don't get to be a VotLW by dying.

Tac is now 12, has ATSNKF, Doctrines.

Csm are 13

Huh, does anyone take them now?

from the units that lost their usefullness thread over in the general discussions:

Primarily I play marines and my 6 predators just don't seem to be tha useful at the moment. Anything they can do something else seems to do it better and/or cheaper...

For a fast tank they don't seem to be that fast, nor that accurate. Granted 5e BA was a notable period where Predators were fast, and accurate, and blow up as soon as anything got a shot on the side armour but those days are long gone.

Vindicators are just almost as fast and tougher. Okay that Demolisher Cannon is much shorter range than any armourment on the Predator, but for 2 quad Las Predators you can almost get 3 Vindicators...

Thanks to the Doctorine boost form UM and IH Landspeeders may have a welcome boost, but can easily get a bit pricy for such a flimsy platform and what about other chapters...

Rhino's... Oh to the days when you could shoot a couple of guys out the top. Made the good olde workhorse a bit more interesting.

What's nice is the price drop and bolter discipline has made the Codex:SM Tactial marine useful.

seems like most marine players are happy now, and considering that their boltguns are now AP -1 for less with better baseline morale ability, i guess yes, that would work out as decent.