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So we know certain Primarchs/Legions had specific jobs in mind upon creation. Russ being an executioner. Magnus destined to sit on throne for webway.

But these jobs do not appear to flow to rest of legions. i.e. what was the emperors children's specific role?

If World Eaters role was shock and assault, what is blood angels then?

...If I may.

Pose a new thought, that the emperor wanted two variants of each. Two shock assaults but two different approaches. One army preferring a rampage assault, while the other prefers the hammer and anvil tactic.

Two executioners, Russ and Khan. One being loyal to a fault, the other (who values freedom) to ask if the execution is necessary to avoid mistake?

Even the variant of Magnus, One of the expunged legions. Maybe one of them was a mass psyker incident. - Chain head explotion? I dunno.

Horus and Lion, two warlords, one very charming and one very direct.

It seems to me they were all designed in two's and designed to buff one another. Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists for example.

What is your thoughts and who would you match up?

I suppose one might be Word Bearers and Ultramarines. Both about not just conquering the world but leaving behind a stable structure and society after. Except one was linked to a society built on faith and belief and the other on logic and reason.

Good Shout,

I also thought maybe Raven Guard and Night Lords.

Both sneaky tactics. but big into combat. "batman" style-esque for them both

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
So we know certain Primarchs/Legions had specific jobs in mind upon creation. Russ being an executioner. Magnus destined to sit on throne for webway.

The books give the primarchs designated roles, not the legions. Magnus sat on the throne not the legion, Russ tells ibn Rustah that the primarchs had roles eg master of the intelligence.

The oldest background is that the primarchs were made and then scattered, and the marine legions were started after that as an improvised fix. They were based on a discarded offshoot of the original primarch project. At that time the legions weren’t part of the original plans for primarchs’ roles.

I think it’s Konrad Curze and Sanguinius who were supposed to complement each other. They both had precognitive powers but one saw the best possible future and the other the worst. One of them motivates and inspires people to achievement and the other terrorizes people out of misbehavior. The newest background is that before they found their primarch the Blood Angels were debased and violent, they made marines quickly and spent them cheaply by throwing them into meat grinder missions. Then Sanguinius turned them into aesthetes. They also recruit from wretched people on Baal and turn them into angels. Sanguinius is also for the people of the Imperium the namesake of their joyful feast that’s most like Christmas. We know that Curze has the opposite effect on populations.

The primarchs were probably supposed to cultivate various qualities in humanity at large. That was the emperors mission after all, guiding the evolution of the species both societally and biologically. Corvus Corax, from his origin, could have been a leader and inspiration for liberation movements and labor unions. The combat mode he gave to the Ravenguard is just as much like the 26 de julio movement or the Viet Cong as it is anyone else.

The Primarchs didn't have designated roles, that was supposition on the part of various Astartes trying to make sense out of a post-Crusade future.

Nurglitch wrote:
The Primarchs didn't have designated roles, that was supposition on the part of various Astartes trying to make sense out of a post-Crusade future.

They weren’t just generals for these big legions.
When Mike Brunton and Rick Priestly wrote about the Emperor and the primarch program for the first time it seems like they had a more sophisticated idea than generals for armies.

It will always be backward justification to try and get any sense out of it.

20 is a huge number to try and create unique anything.

The emperor created 20 supernatural beings - basically his own daemon princes. As weapons to lead his crusade.

He basically did what the necrons did with the ctan.

But you can't engineer 'executioner genes'. Each primarch and Legion might have had slight genetic differences that gave them advantages in different areas, but any role they were given was a social construct more than a genetic one.

And that was largely due to the nurture if the primarchs - the world eaters wouldn't have deployed the way they did if angron hadn't turned out the way he did.

Hellebore wrote:
Each primarch and Legion might have had slight genetic differences that gave them advantages in different areas, but any role they were given was a social construct more than a genetic one.

And that was largely due to the nurture if the primarchs - the world eaters wouldn't have deployed the way they did if angron hadn't turned out the way he did.

This. And, especially considering how many Primarchs were a product of their locations (Guilliman being a master administrator because he was raised in an environment where that was permitted, versus Angron's apparently natural healing and compassion abilities becoming lost beneath the Nails), it stands to reason that the way a Primarch turned out what because of their environment, not their genetics. As Hellebore says - their genetics certainly would have made them more predisposed towards certain outcomes, but they weren't only going to turn out one way.

As for the Legions, plenty of times we see a Legion which doesn't exactly mesh with their Primarch initially. The Blood Angels, for one, were far FAR more bloodthirsty and degenerate before Sanguinius took them under his wing. The World Eater/War Hounds were a Legion built on brotherhood and fraternity even more so than the Luna Wolves, and they lost that completely. The Raven Guard were actually far closer to the Luna Wolves, more barbaric and cruel than what Corax wanted his Legion to be, so he sent many to prowl the stars alone, and others to die at Gate 42.

That some Legions ended up like their Primarchs speaks far more to the subconscious hold each Primarch had upon their children, than "all War-Born will be studious and logical, so hath I decreed!" The Primarchs and their Legions fitting themselves into "roles" is more them trying to rationalise their own existential crises and purpose in life, rather than the Emperor's design. It's their way of coping with the unconscious understanding that "one day, this war will be over, and what purpose will we have then?", which makes the fact that this very way of thinking is why they're locked in a perpetual war in M41 all the more ironic and tragic.

At least, in my interpretation.

many Primarchs were a product of their locations

The primarchs landed on planets, and they landed on planets full of people, that we know of. How were they drawn to these places, instead of the depths of space or an unpopulated planet with much higher gravity? They were drawn to places where, metaphysically, they belonged.

Magnus was a psyker who communicated with the Emperor before he landed on the planet of psykers.

Russ, we see in Deliverance Lost, had wolf DNA before he landed on a planet of wolf men to be raised by wolves.

Corax, whose gene seed was implanted into Terran slavers, landed on a planet run by slavers and that’s why he hated his Terran legionnaires.

It’s magic. It’s not dumb mana points video game harry Potter magic, it’s actual magical magic.

So does that mean that the Emperor had planned for Russ to be raised by wolves? Did he have a wolf nanny in store somewhere in his lab? Now I want to see that!

You'd compare BA or Night Lords?

Interesting not thought about it that way.

Suppose iconically makes sense two, angel and demon. Blood Angels being literal Angel wings, Night Lords having bat like devil wings.

pelicaniforce wrote:

many Primarchs were a product of their locations

The primarchs landed on planets, and they landed on planets full of people, that we know of. How were they drawn to these places, instead of the depths of space or an unpopulated planet with much higher gravity?

Plot armour. In the same way that interesting things happen on important planets in the fluff. That's just how fiction works, IMO.

They were drawn to places where, metaphysically, they belonged.

So Angron, an empathic, sociable, arguably "kind" Primarch, "belonged" on a planet where he would be tortured and mutilated?

Sorry, I don't believe that - or at least, not in that way. If there *is* predetermined outcomes in 40k, then it would have been "X Primarch is destined to land on Z World, and by landing on this world, be shaped by it to become Y in the future" - not "X Primarch is Y, so they were drawn to Z World" as you seem to imply. Or, at least, not for the majority of Primarchs, it seems.

Magnus was a psyker who communicated with the Emperor before he landed on the planet of psykers.

And Sanguinius, a psyker, was raised on a planet with, I believe, no significant psychic presence. Mortarion was raised on a planet with psykers, and that turned him to hate them.

Perhaps there's cases where it really does work out well (Russ and Magnus), but there's plenty of others where they don't seem to have a genetic predetermined outcome (ie, Lorgar wasn't hardwired into worship, that was his upbriging by Kor Phaeron), and in some cases, where their location completely moulds who they are (Angron and Kurze especially).

Corax, whose gene seed was implanted into Terran slavers, landed on a planet run by slavers and that’s why he hated his Terran legionnaires.

He also hated them because they were very close to Horus though. As with many things in 40k, there's often several explanations.

It's worth noting that the Chaos Gods might not have wholly cooperated with each other in choosing the planets where the Primarchs would fulfill Their joint intentions for the Imperium.

That's a point. Chaos is almost literally incapable of co-operation so it's not exactly unlikely the Primarchs were being sent to worlds they'd die on then someone did the extra dimensional godlike being equivalent of tripping the others up.

I always find these conversations about primarchs interesting but there is one example that always tosses out each theory. Alpharius and Omegon.

Assuming there are 2 of them, then how are they representing an aspect of the emperor himself (another thread).

If they were designed for a specific purpose such as espionage, still why 2 of them. Why not 2 of other primarchs on the same hesitations capsule.

And we don’t, as far as I am aware, know anything about his/their upbringing to apply the nature nurture argument. Did they grow up on a spy planet

They represent his duality and controversy in terms of goals and how he views those around him, having 2 makes espionage easier as one commands an infiltration force and one commands the legion overall plus it makes it easier for them to hide. The other Primarchs weren't in pairs in their capsules because they seem to be intended to be in pairs as people e.g. Dorn/Perturabo and the other twin Primarch was one of the Lost.

Spy tactics could have just come from a world with lots of advanced fortresses where infiltration was a more effective means of conquest than outright siege.

pm713 wrote:
That's a point. Chaos is almost literally incapable of co-operation so it's not exactly unlikely the Primarchs were being sent to worlds they'd die on then someone did the extra dimensional godlike being equivalent of tripping the others up.

Actually, the four chaos gods had worked out a perfect plan together, where every primarch was meant to play his part in their grand victory. Then Malal messed everything up while laughing at them like a jerk. The other gods got their revenge by removing him out of existence and erasing any trace that he ever existed.

You can't prove that it didn't happen!

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
You'd compare BA or Night Lords?

Interesting not thought about it that way.

Suppose iconically makes sense two, angel and demon. Blood Angels being literal Angel wings, Night Lords having bat like devil wings.

The hilarious part is how the "angels" are cannibals.

But of course the "demons " are of course the bad guys because they aren't hypocrites about their methods.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
You'd compare BA or Night Lords?

Interesting not thought about it that way.

Suppose iconically makes sense two, angel and demon. Blood Angels being literal Angel wings, Night Lords having bat like devil wings.

The hilarious part is how the "angels" are cannibals.

But of course the "demons " are of course the bad guys because they aren't hypocrites about their methods.

One did it because of a genetic flaw, the other was just debased and screwed up. If you had a choice in which legion would save you, you would pick Blood Angels. No sane person would pick Night Lords

123ply wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
You'd compare BA or Night Lords?

Interesting not thought about it that way.

Suppose iconically makes sense two, angel and demon. Blood Angels being literal Angel wings, Night Lords having bat like devil wings.

The hilarious part is how the "angels" are cannibals.

But of course the "demons " are of course the bad guys because they aren't hypocrites about their methods.

One did it because of a genetic flaw, the other was just debased and screwed up. If you had a choice in which legion would save you, you would pick Blood Angels. No sane person would pick Night Lords

Always BA, and get the hell outa there before you show your tasty neck.

And whether it was the emperors plan or not, i still think the legions are made in two's almost.

You could say that the Night Lords being able to enjoy the scent of human fear is something of a genetic anomaly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pelicaniforce wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
The Primarchs didn't have designated roles, that was supposition on the part of various Astartes trying to make sense out of a post-Crusade future.

They weren’t just generals for these big legions.
When Mike Brunton and Rick Priestly wrote about the Emperor and the primarch program for the first time it seems like they had a more sophisticated idea than generals for armies.

In the modern fluff Lorgar is castigated for not leaning into the role of Warlord.

Nurglitch wrote:

When Mike Brunton and Rick Priestly wrote about the Emperor and the primarch program for the first time it seems like they had a more sophisticated idea than generals for armies.

In the modern fluff Lorgar is castigated for not leaning into the role of Warlord.

That was also way after the primarch project was ruined by chaos scattering them. They say it in LatD that by that time Warlord was an adapted role the emperor had to shoehorn him into.

“The Emperor had lost the Primarchs and the first action of his renewed war against the Chaos Powers. The Primarchs could not be recreated and even if this were possible there was not time to do it... The Emperor evolved another plan... in this way the first Space Marine Chapters were founded...”
“This research was itself a spin- off from the aborted Primarch project, which was an early attempt at genetic re-structuring with the aim of creating god-like creatures called Primarchs.”

The primarchs were designed without even conceiving of space marines. By the time the Emperor invented space marines and gave them to the primarchs, the original plan for the primarchs was abandoned. What Lorgar was chastened for was probably more or less what he had originally been designed for. Making them generals was an improvisation that didn’t relate to their original purpose.

That’s the main theme of the setting, everything was supposed to be enlightened but instead there’s a corpse emperor, everything was supposed to be enlightened but instead the Interex assumed Horus was already a chaos lord because he’s a Warmaster wearing leopard pelts and nuclear powered armor.

It doesn't help that Horus was acting in ways you could easily imagine a Chaos warlord would behave.

123ply wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
You'd compare BA or Night Lords?

Interesting not thought about it that way.

Suppose iconically makes sense two, angel and demon. Blood Angels being literal Angel wings, Night Lords having bat like devil wings.

The hilarious part is how the "angels" are cannibals.

But of course the "demons " are of course the bad guys because they aren't hypocrites about their methods.

One did it because of a genetic flaw, the other was just debased and screwed up. If you had a choice in which legion would save you, you would pick Blood Angels. No sane person would pick Night Lords

The Night Lords were not "debased and screwed up ". They were created by the Emperor to enforce his will through terror. And they did exactly what he made them for. If anyone is "debased and screwed up " it's the Emperor for creating them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:
You could say that the Night Lords being able to enjoy the scent of human fear is something of a genetic anomaly.

Yes you could. Of course that particular anomaly is apparently considered more heinous than one that causes a legion to thirst for the taste of human flesh.

Of course it might not be an anomaly at all. Perhaps the Emperor put it there when he created them in order to make them better for the role he made them to fill.

It's not a bug it's a feature.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
You could say that the Night Lords being able to enjoy the scent of human fear is something of a genetic anomaly.

Yes you could. Of course that particular anomaly is apparently considered more heinous than one that causes a legion to thirst for the taste of human flesh.

Of course it might not be an anomaly at all. Perhaps the Emperor put it there when he created them in order to make them better for the role he made them to fill.

It's not a bug it's a feature.

Corpse-starch is a healthy, natural part of Humanity's diet, and who doesn't want to start their day with a steaming bowl of protein, carbohydrates, and delicious fat? No, it's definitely the guys going around committing genocide for the crime of incorrect High Gothic grammar that are the bad guys. We decorate with skulls ironically, and in remembrance of martyers, whereas those bastards do it sincerely, and to remind people of their victims.

Nurglitch wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
You could say that the Night Lords being able to enjoy the scent of human fear is something of a genetic anomaly.

Yes you could. Of course that particular anomaly is apparently considered more heinous than one that causes a legion to thirst for the taste of human flesh.

Of course it might not be an anomaly at all. Perhaps the Emperor put it there when he created them in order to make them better for the role he made them to fill.

It's not a bug it's a feature.

Corpse-starch is a healthy, natural part of Humanity's diet, and who doesn't want to start their day with a steaming bowl of protein, carbohydrates, and delicious fat? No, it's definitely the guys going around committing genocide for the crime of incorrect High Gothic grammar that are the bad guys. We decorate with skulls ironically, and in remembrance of martyers, whereas those bastards do it sincerely, and to remind people of their victims.

Are you referring to the Inquisition? Because last I checked neither Night Lords or Blood Angels cared what language the people they were killing spoke.