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Evening guys, I am completely ignorant about primarchs so please enlighten me. Were the primarchs this useless when they were first released and then GW buffed them to be usable in competitive games? As it stands, if you want to take Ghaz and Makari you are going to be paying about 350ish points for the duo and will be kulture locked into Goffs (because of Makari). Hes good in CC but no more so then an 80pt Warboss with relic klaw and new strat. Actually, the warboss is probably better because he is character protected. I am curious about how good/bad the SM and C:SM primarchs were compared to this.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
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I found Guilliman was mostly good for setting up a gun line and chopping heads in melee that was it. My main concern was that it rewarded only one play style. That being said I haven't tried him at his reduced level (no longer rerolls all wounds). I haven't been paying much attention to Ghaz other than the model itself but he can't be That bad!?
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





you can't really compare the primarchs, I mean Gulliman is VERY VERY differant from Morty and Magnus.
Gulliman is purposefully kept at 9 wounds so he gets character protection, and mostly acts as a gunline buff, although he's also a highly capable melee fighter he's almost never used for that as he's not partiuclarly uber fast, nor can he load in transports (he's a monster)

Morty and Magnus are very differant as well, they're a lot bigger (to the point where it'd be nearly impossiable to hide them behind terrain) they're basicly super psyker beat sticks.

Ghaz is completely differnt from the above, (to the point where you can't compare them) he is a melee beatstick, pain and simple. sure he's got a gun but he's not a character you'd ever use to buff a gunline etc. instead he';s clearly intended to run up with the infantry and smash into combat.

and his buffs aren;t too bad for that run him and some boyz (or whatever) up to a weak spot in the lines and they'll crush it pretty good.


I suspect Ghaz is paying a "Experimental rules points premium" for his 4 damage a phase ability.

but that saiud the ability is going to be pretty damn potent against some armies.

Ghaz will be weakest against armies that can put out reliable damage in all 3 phases(grey Knights will likely shred him for example) but against the right armies he'll be VERY potent. an army that has a lot of big slow units and is only good in one phase or so, will be partiuclarly vunerable.


Is he over costed? a little and I bet he'll take a points cut in CA 2021 if not before, but he's not worthless and will IMHO be VERY potent against his old sparring partner the guard

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/23 21:42:01


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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The Void

Well, Primarchs can just get short off the board in 1 shooting phase. That's such a big difference that its hard to say anything else useful.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






SemperMortis wrote:
Evening guys, I am completely ignorant about primarchs so please enlighten me. Were the primarchs this useless when they were first released and then GW buffed them to be usable in competitive games? As it stands, if you want to take Ghaz and Makari you are going to be paying about 350ish points for the duo and will be kulture locked into Goffs (because of Makari). Hes good in CC but no more so then an 80pt Warboss with relic klaw and new strat. Actually, the warboss is probably better because he is character protected. I am curious about how good/bad the SM and C:SM primarchs were compared to this.

Mortarion wasn't out at the start of 8th, Magnus and Guilliman were tier 1 at the launch of 8th and got nerfed later. Mortarion was tier 1 when he was released but has gotten power crept since then. Magnus and Mortarion are way more mobile because of Warptime which they are the prime targets for. Ghaz doesn't come close in terms of damage output of a Daemon Primarch and Guilliman was the greatest aura stick in the game and he gives free CP, Ghaz' defense is super weird so that's hard to judge, he's no Primarch and he won't be tier 1 at release. New releases should not be tier 1, they should be tier 2 or 3 and then GW should adjust everything toward tier 2.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Evening guys, I am completely ignorant about primarchs so please enlighten me. Were the primarchs this useless when they were first released and then GW buffed them to be usable in competitive games? As it stands, if you want to take Ghaz and Makari you are going to be paying about 350ish points for the duo and will be kulture locked into Goffs (because of Makari). Hes good in CC but no more so then an 80pt Warboss with relic klaw and new strat. Actually, the warboss is probably better because he is character protected. I am curious about how good/bad the SM and C:SM primarchs were compared to this.

Mortarion wasn't out at the start of 8th, Magnus and Guilliman were tier 1 at the launch of 8th and got nerfed later. Mortarion was tier 1 when he was released but has gotten power crept since then. Magnus and Mortarion are way more mobile because of Warptime which they are the prime targets for. Ghaz doesn't come close in terms of damage output of a Daemon Primarch and Guilliman was the greatest aura stick in the game and he gives free CP, Ghaz' defense is super weird so that's hard to judge, he's no Primarch and he won't be tier 1 at release. New releases should not be tier 1, they should be tier 2 or 3 and then GW should adjust everything toward tier 2.



I agree that Ghaz is really hard to judge vs the Primarchs, it's also worth noting that he's an HQ whereas the other primarchs are lords of war, not suuuiper relevant but it does mean that unlike a primarch if you take Ghaz you only need to take another HQ to fill out a detachment instead of 2. saves on the HQ tax I suppose.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
Evening guys, I am completely ignorant about primarchs so please enlighten me. Were the primarchs this useless when they were first released and then GW buffed them to be usable in competitive games? As it stands, if you want to take Ghaz and Makari you are going to be paying about 350ish points for the duo and will be kulture locked into Goffs (because of Makari). Hes good in CC but no more so then an 80pt Warboss with relic klaw and new strat. Actually, the warboss is probably better because he is character protected. I am curious about how good/bad the SM and C:SM primarchs were compared to this.


Probably better than or equal to Magnus/Morty and worse than Guilliman.

Like Magnus/Morty, he's a big beatsticky guy who punches faces. However, he trades some offensive output and mobility in exchange for not being able to be killed very easily. Not that Magnus/Morty are easy to kill, since they're both Knight-tier in terms of survivability, but the max 4 damage per phase is almost character protection and effectively funnels people who want to kill Ghazskull right into where he wants them.

On the other hand, compared to Guilliman, he doesn't have good support ability, and he doesn't have the right keywords either, since he can't hit himself with his advance+charge aura. Also, "mostly unkillable outside of melee" is still a step down from "actually unkillable outside of melee".

All in all, though, I don't think he's really expecting to see the table. He's kind of costly, and doesn't bring anything to the table other than being big and killy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/23 23:15:09


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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The Void

A more interesting comparison would probably be with Abbadon.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Evening guys, I am completely ignorant about primarchs so please enlighten me. Were the primarchs this useless when they were first released and then GW buffed them to be usable in competitive games? As it stands, if you want to take Ghaz and Makari you are going to be paying about 350ish points for the duo and will be kulture locked into Goffs (because of Makari). Hes good in CC but no more so then an 80pt Warboss with relic klaw and new strat. Actually, the warboss is probably better because he is character protected. I am curious about how good/bad the SM and C:SM primarchs were compared to this.


Probably better than or equal to Magnus/Morty and worse than Guilliman.

Like Magnus/Morty, he's a big beatsticky guy who punches faces. However, he trades some offensive output and mobility in exchange for not being able to be killed very easily. Not that Magnus/Morty are easy to kill, since they're both Knight-tier in terms of survivability, but the max 4 damage per phase is almost character protection and effectively funnels people who want to kill Ghazskull right into where he wants them.

On the other hand, compared to Guilliman, he doesn't have good support ability, and he doesn't have the right keywords either, since he can't hit himself with his advance+charge aura. Also, "mostly unkillable outside of melee" is still a step down from "actually unkillable outside of melee".

All in all, though, I don't think he's really expecting to see the table. He's kind of costly, and doesn't bring anything to the table other than being big and killy.


Correct me if I am wrong, and I mean that because I am not super familiar with any of the primarchs, but didn't Morty and Magnus see prime time on the tournament scene? I know guilliman did, i got blasted off the table by his smurf line once or twice

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
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We'll have to see - but from where I am the problem is the limited army boosts Ghaz provides for this high points cost. He's still a bit better than a cheapy warboss with the relic claw - but then he's 3 and half times as many points. Thats quite a lot of extra stuff running with the warboss.

I can see him being good against say Tau, who may struggle to inflict wounds outside of the shooting phase.

Against other armies I think clearing of 4 wounds in the Psychic/Shooting/Assault phase isn't that dramatic - especially if he's deep striking in with relatively little support and promply fluff the charge (about a 45% chance of happening or so?). Having him run up the board might work if you go first but if you go second he's just going to get chipped down and almost certainly eliminated before he gets a chance to do anything.
   
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Tyel wrote:
We'll have to see - but from where I am the problem is the limited army boosts Ghaz provides for this high points cost. He's still a bit better than a cheapy warboss with the relic claw - but then he's 3 and half times as many points. Thats quite a lot of extra stuff running with the warboss.

I can see him being good against say Tau, who may struggle to inflict wounds outside of the shooting phase.

Against other armies I think clearing of 4 wounds in the Psychic/Shooting/Assault phase isn't that dramatic - especially if he's deep striking in with relatively little support and promply fluff the charge (about a 45% chance of happening or so?). Having him run up the board might work if you go first but if you go second he's just going to get chipped down and almost certainly eliminated before he gets a chance to do anything.


That is probably my biggest concern about playing Ghaz at all, he costs 285pts and if you stick him with Makari (Basically required) its 350pts and also kulture locks you into Goffs or to put it another way, I could take 4 Warbosses with Powerklaws and still have 30 to 38pts (index shoota) left over to buy whatever I want. Give one warboss the new upgrade and a Killa Klaw and you are looking at a massive difference in abilities. Add to that, Ghaz doesn't benefit from his own buffs and unless you are playing as Goffs you are only getting his normal buff of +1 attack if you charged this turn over what a warboss already does.

Plus as you mentioned, against a couple of armies that 4 wound rule might work, but keep in mind, most armies have a way around this, first off almost every army except for Tau can deal damage in the psychic phase, secondly against those Tau, remember that Overwatch happens in its own phase so those Tau can also inflict 4 wounds in the overwatch phase and having lost entire 30 boy mobs to Tau overwatch, yeah its possible. So turn 1 he walks up the board, loses 4 wounds, turn 2 he loses 4 in shooting phase and 4 in the charge phase, if you use the medisquig strat on him he might be alive still, but he isn't going to last past that first assault phase.

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SemperMortis wrote:

first off almost every army except for Tau can deal damage in the psychic phase

Necrons say hi.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/24 01:48:01


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SemperMortis wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Evening guys, I am completely ignorant about primarchs so please enlighten me. Were the primarchs this useless when they were first released and then GW buffed them to be usable in competitive games? As it stands, if you want to take Ghaz and Makari you are going to be paying about 350ish points for the duo and will be kulture locked into Goffs (because of Makari). Hes good in CC but no more so then an 80pt Warboss with relic klaw and new strat. Actually, the warboss is probably better because he is character protected. I am curious about how good/bad the SM and C:SM primarchs were compared to this.


Probably better than or equal to Magnus/Morty and worse than Guilliman.

Like Magnus/Morty, he's a big beatsticky guy who punches faces. However, he trades some offensive output and mobility in exchange for not being able to be killed very easily. Not that Magnus/Morty are easy to kill, since they're both Knight-tier in terms of survivability, but the max 4 damage per phase is almost character protection and effectively funnels people who want to kill Ghazskull right into where he wants them.

On the other hand, compared to Guilliman, he doesn't have good support ability, and he doesn't have the right keywords either, since he can't hit himself with his advance+charge aura. Also, "mostly unkillable outside of melee" is still a step down from "actually unkillable outside of melee".

All in all, though, I don't think he's really expecting to see the table. He's kind of costly, and doesn't bring anything to the table other than being big and killy.


Correct me if I am wrong, and I mean that because I am not super familiar with any of the primarchs, but didn't Morty and Magnus see prime time on the tournament scene? I know guilliman did, i got blasted off the table by his smurf line once or twice


Did being the operative word. I haven't seen them in a while. Mortarion I still see sometimes, but Magnus seems to have disappeared, as has Guilliman after his nerf.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in ca
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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Evening guys, I am completely ignorant about primarchs so please enlighten me. Were the primarchs this useless when they were first released and then GW buffed them to be usable in competitive games? As it stands, if you want to take Ghaz and Makari you are going to be paying about 350ish points for the duo and will be kulture locked into Goffs (because of Makari). Hes good in CC but no more so then an 80pt Warboss with relic klaw and new strat. Actually, the warboss is probably better because he is character protected. I am curious about how good/bad the SM and C:SM primarchs were compared to this.


Probably better than or equal to Magnus/Morty and worse than Guilliman.

Like Magnus/Morty, he's a big beatsticky guy who punches faces. However, he trades some offensive output and mobility in exchange for not being able to be killed very easily. Not that Magnus/Morty are easy to kill, since they're both Knight-tier in terms of survivability, but the max 4 damage per phase is almost character protection and effectively funnels people who want to kill Ghazskull right into where he wants them.

On the other hand, compared to Guilliman, he doesn't have good support ability, and he doesn't have the right keywords either, since he can't hit himself with his advance+charge aura. Also, "mostly unkillable outside of melee" is still a step down from "actually unkillable outside of melee".

All in all, though, I don't think he's really expecting to see the table. He's kind of costly, and doesn't bring anything to the table other than being big and killy.


Correct me if I am wrong, and I mean that because I am not super familiar with any of the primarchs, but didn't Morty and Magnus see prime time on the tournament scene? I know guilliman did, i got blasted off the table by his smurf line once or twice


Did being the operative word. I haven't seen them in a while. Mortarion I still see sometimes, but Magnus seems to have disappeared, as has Guilliman after his nerf.


among ultramarine players general consensus is that Calgar is better bang for your buck

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SemperMortis wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, and I mean that because I am not super familiar with any of the primarchs, but didn't Morty and Magnus see prime time on the tournament scene? I know guilliman did, i got blasted off the table by his smurf line once or twice


Magnus and Mortarion did have some synergy when Magnus was nigh-invincible before the TS codex nerfed him. When all codices got more firepower and stratagems to blast either or both off the table T1, it died.

At present times Mortarion is a liability to DG lists, but he sometimes pops up in chaos soup because he is basically a more durable knight. He really can't do anything without warptime to sling him across the table.

In a list without warptime, I'd argue that Thrakka and Mortarion are very similar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blndmage wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

first off almost every army except for Tau can deal damage in the psychic phase

Necrons say hi.


Necrons can deal damage in the movement phase, which is just as good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/24 10:10:11


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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 Blndmage wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

first off almost every army except for Tau can deal damage in the psychic phase

Necrons say hi.


Also: Dark Eldar, Sisters, Custodes, Ad Mech, Imp knights and Chaos Knights (sort of, so .5)

So nearly every army apart from 7.5 of them!
   
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The smoke

Dudeface wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

first off almost every army except for Tau can deal damage in the psychic phase

Necrons say hi.


Also: Dark Eldar, Sisters, Custodes, Ad Mech, Imp knights and Chaos Knights (sort of, so .5)

So nearly every army apart from 7.5 of them!


Well, Drukhari can technically field The Yncarne and Yvraine without souping. While not psychic, they can can also use a Voidraven to do mortal wounds in the movement phase.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/24 12:18:17


2500
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At least all of the imperial factions can just insert an inquisitor or assassin into their army.

But the whole point is moot, as you can easily screen out the vast majority of mortal wound powers and there is the possibility of them failing/getting denied. I don't think anybody but TS should reliably be able to put 4 mortal wounds on Thrakka if you play properly.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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USA

I'm inclined to agree, putting that many mortal wounds on Thraka each turn requires an exceptional focus on psychic powers.

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 Melissia wrote:
I'm inclined to agree, putting that many mortal wounds on Thraka each turn requires an exceptional focus on psychic powers.


I don't know about that. Doesn't IF have that power that does 3 mortal wounds if you roll higher than their movement characteristic?
And Necrons can just target Ghaz with C'tan powers anyways, I don't think it will be *that* hard.
   
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So, to sum up:

Primarchs: Get shot off the board turn 1 before they can do much.
Ghaz: Gets shot off the board over a couple turns before he can do much.

Note that in both cases, they could be quite good if your opponent was running a melee list. Because then they a) wouldn't have as much alpha strike shooting and b) these units that normally have trouble getting to the enemy wouldn't, because the enemy would be coming to them. Every discussion of 8th meta/balance starts with the assumption that everyone is just running gun blobs because, well....they are!

The real problem is 8th edition. Back in 5th, all these units would have been great because there would be enemy melee to scare off or fight.

If 8th could fix its balance between melee and ranged, then a lot of stuff would be fixed really fast.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/25 22:57:13


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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
So, to sum up:

Primarchs: Get shot off the board turn 1 before they can do much.
Ghaz: Gets shot off the board over a couple turns before he can do much.

Note that in both cases, they could be quite good if your opponent was running a melee list. Because then they a) wouldn't have as much alpha strike shooting and b) these units that normally have trouble getting to the enemy wouldn't, because the enemy would be coming to them. Every discussion of 8th meta/balance starts with the assumption that everyone is just running gun blobs because, well....they are!

The real problem is 8th edition. Back in 5th, all these units would have been great because there would be enemy melee to scare off or fight.

If 8th could fix its balance between melee and ranged, then a lot of stuff would be fixed really fast.


With regard to fixes, I'm wondering if damage needs to be toned down - especially on long-range weapons.

It used to be that, for example, Lascannons were decent but not especially reliable. If you really wanted a vehicle dead, you'd have to get into range with stuff like meltas.

Now, though, with both doing d6 damage there's really very little reason to bother with meltaguns.

Perhaps long-range weapons should have much more limited damage characteristics? I'm thinking around the d3 mark rather than the d6 mark.

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 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

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 vipoid wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
So, to sum up:

Primarchs: Get shot off the board turn 1 before they can do much.
Ghaz: Gets shot off the board over a couple turns before he can do much.

Note that in both cases, they could be quite good if your opponent was running a melee list. Because then they a) wouldn't have as much alpha strike shooting and b) these units that normally have trouble getting to the enemy wouldn't, because the enemy would be coming to them. Every discussion of 8th meta/balance starts with the assumption that everyone is just running gun blobs because, well....they are!

The real problem is 8th edition. Back in 5th, all these units would have been great because there would be enemy melee to scare off or fight.

If 8th could fix its balance between melee and ranged, then a lot of stuff would be fixed really fast.


With regard to fixes, I'm wondering if damage needs to be toned down - especially on long-range weapons.

It used to be that, for example, Lascannons were decent but not especially reliable. If you really wanted a vehicle dead, you'd have to get into range with stuff like meltas.

Now, though, with both doing d6 damage there's really very little reason to bother with meltaguns.

Perhaps long-range weapons should have much more limited damage characteristics? I'm thinking around the d3 mark rather than the d6 mark.


Toning down damage might help, but I think the problem is with the damage system overall, and with the way its shared between infantry and vehicles. Consider how things used to work:

A lascannon could potentially 1 shot any vehicle, but generally wouldn't. If a lascannon got shot at a character, the only thing stopping it from one shotting it was the possibility of rolling a 1, and invul saves. So generally a lascannon was less than 50% effective against marine HQs. But the likelyhood of a lascannon ever shooting one was very low, because those characters were protected by their units (as they are now.) So what's changed? Lascannons are about the same vs characters. Against vehicles they no longer have the potential to 1 shot anything, but they will actually kill in less shots on average than in the past.

But for meltas, its different. They had a good chance of 1 shotting vehicles. And now they don't. But its different than for lascannons, because meltas generally come in small numbers, and relied on accomplishing something before the squad carrying them died or ended up in melee. So while for lascannons its an okay tradeoff to not 1 shot things but to still take them down reliably, for meltas it wasn't because of how their role works.

And remember, in the past, vehicles were often more dangerous and harder to take off the board, but a lot easier to shut down temporarily due to shaken/stunned. A lot of the deal with vehicles was that you couldn't kill them with long range AV, but you could silence them. If you really wanted to kill them, you had to get in there with meltas or melee. So there was just a lot more to the system than just damage. But now, like a lot of other things, its reduced to just a single spectrum. And that means that roles and counters are reduced. So we end up with a situation where its just best to spam the 1 thing that's most efficient. Right now that's shooting. If we make shooting less efficient or melee more efficient, then all we're likely to do is change which is dominant. It'll turn into all melee spam lists instead. It's unlikely that we'll find the exact balance point in such a limited spectrum.

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 vipoid wrote:
 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
So, to sum up:

Primarchs: Get shot off the board turn 1 before they can do much.
Ghaz: Gets shot off the board over a couple turns before he can do much.

Note that in both cases, they could be quite good if your opponent was running a melee list. Because then they a) wouldn't have as much alpha strike shooting and b) these units that normally have trouble getting to the enemy wouldn't, because the enemy would be coming to them. Every discussion of 8th meta/balance starts with the assumption that everyone is just running gun blobs because, well....they are!

The real problem is 8th edition. Back in 5th, all these units would have been great because there would be enemy melee to scare off or fight.

If 8th could fix its balance between melee and ranged, then a lot of stuff would be fixed really fast.


With regard to fixes, I'm wondering if damage needs to be toned down - especially on long-range weapons.

It used to be that, for example, Lascannons were decent but not especially reliable. If you really wanted a vehicle dead, you'd have to get into range with stuff like meltas.

Now, though, with both doing d6 damage there's really very little reason to bother with meltaguns.

Perhaps long-range weapons should have much more limited damage characteristics? I'm thinking around the d3 mark rather than the d6 mark.


Don't forget the insane creep of weapon AP values. A certain faction's basic infantry have AP -2 with insane range.
   
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 Eonfuzz wrote:

Don't forget the insane creep of weapon AP values. A certain faction's basic infantry have AP -2 with insane range.


On the AP front, I'm somewhat torn.

On the one hand, whilst I like 8th's system in principle, in practise the sheer volume of AP renders a lot of saves moot. I think they tried to replicate the full range of APs from past editions, without taking into account the fact that even low AP values can make a drastic difference.

However, I'm also uncomfortably aware that in 6th/7th my favourite faction (Dark Eldar) was given weapons with AP that would embarrass a wooden spoon. Hence, I'm also very wary of going back to that system as I know damn well that our main HQ won't even have a single melee weapon with AP2.

I think I'd lean towards keeping the current system but toning back AP values on many weapons.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

 vipoid wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:

Don't forget the insane creep of weapon AP values. A certain faction's basic infantry have AP -2 with insane range.


On the AP front, I'm somewhat torn.

On the one hand, whilst I like 8th's system in principle, in practise the sheer volume of AP renders a lot of saves moot. I think they tried to replicate the full range of APs from past editions, without taking into account the fact that even low AP values can make a drastic difference.

However, I'm also uncomfortably aware that in 6th/7th my favourite faction (Dark Eldar) was given weapons with AP that would embarrass a wooden spoon. Hence, I'm also very wary of going back to that system as I know damn well that our main HQ won't even have a single melee weapon with AP2.

I think I'd lean towards keeping the current system but toning back AP values on many weapons.


I've been saying for awhile that we need a dual AP system. The AP system is like the damage problem I was talking about above. The rules change reduced everything to a linear spectrum.

The problem is that Intercessors need ap-2 to efficiently kill 5+ horde units like guard. But then it also makes them too strong against marines as they reduce them to 5+. You know what the solution is? An AP rule where they ignore 5+ entirely, but don't reduce 3+ at all. Because then you can have a weapon be good against light infantry without being any stronger vs heavy infantry. (Yes, this is just the old AP rule.)

They could have both ap systems at the same time. For example, you could have a weapon that is -1, but also ignores natural 5+.

This is all so solvable if they were trying.

Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

In AoS there is a dwarven armour that ignores ap values of less than -3.

The imperium needs to commission the squat homeworlds into forging some gromril armoured battle tanks!
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

nareik wrote:
In AoS there is a dwarven armour that ignores ap values of less than -3.

The imperium needs to commission the squat homeworlds into forging some gromril armoured battle tanks!

Or possibly just commission some of the AoS rules writers to write some rules for 40k.

And some of guys who wrote the rules for hh to write some fething rules for the legions damnit!
   
 
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