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Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury, Page 92 wrote:Apoplectic Fury (1CP): Use this Stratagem during deployment, when you set up a WORLD EATERS INFANTRY unit from your army. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first

1) It's during deployment, so can be used multiple times when the unit is set up.
2) It doesn't restrict you on using it on the same unit multiple times.
3) It doesn't restrict you to moving a maximum of 9" total, it's 9" per use of the stratagem. They all trigger "At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins" and thus Sequencing comes into play.
4) Unlike the T'au Empire Stratagem "Strike and Fade"

Codex: T'au Empire, Page 130 wrote:Strike and Fade (1CP): Use this Stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Pick a DAL’YTH SEPT unit from your army. That unit may shoot and then immediately move up to 6" as if it were the Movement phase. They cannot Advance as part of this move.

It does not state to move "as if it were the Movement phase", meaning that I am not limited by the Movement Characteristic of 5" for Chaos Terminators (but on the flip side I can't advance as part of the move, not that it is needed anyway). It uses the same wording that, say, Pile In or Charging uses

BRB, Page 182 wrote:4. Make Charge Move: After any Overwatch has been resolved, roll 2D6. Each model in the charging unit can move up to this number of inches[...]

2. Pile In: You may move each model in the unit up to 3"[...]

I think we can all agree that a unit with a movement characteristic of 4" can make a charge move of 5"-12" and a unit with a movement of 2" (e.g. a Cataphractii Terminator Squad under the influence of the Tremor Shells stratagem, which halves their movement from 4" to 2") can make a 3" Pile In move.

Edit: 5) The Alpha Legion stratagem Forward Operatives (post errata), almost word for word the same, has a restriction saying "Each unit can only be selected for this Stratagem once per battle." while Apoplectic Fury does not.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines errata wrote:Page 166 – Forward Operatives
Change this Stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem during deployment, when you set up an ALPHA LEGION Infantry unit from your army. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first. Each unit can only be selected for this Stratagem once per battle.’

If you could only select it once, there would be no need for the restriction. Ergo, you can select a unit multiple times unless the stratagem forbids it. The Faith and Fury errata makes no change to Apoplectic Fury as the CSM Codex errata did.


Conclusion: I can use Apoplectic Fury 5 times in the Deployment Phase to move my Chaos Terminators 45" across the board so long as I don't move within 9" of any enemy models.

I checked the FoF FAQ and found nothing to contradict this.

Does the caveat "When you set up a ..." mean it can only be used once when that unit is set up? Or can a strat that effects a unit "When set up" be used multiple times on that unit?
It seems you set it up, play the strat, and now it is beyond the "you set it up" phase?
I realize now you don't actually move the unit into the beginning of the first battle round, after deployment is done. So in a sense you play the strat, and "save up" the 9" move until everyone is done deploying?

It seems that is the crux here. How long does the "after a unit is set up" thing last and what are its parameters. I find no rules on that.

You can use the Strat when you set a unit up. You only set a unit up once. Conclusion: you can only use it once, As you only set each unit up once, and the OP is incorrect in their conclusion.

edwardmyst wrote:
Does the caveat "When you set up a ..." mean it can only be used once when that unit is set up? Or can a strat that effects a unit "When set up" be used multiple times on that unit?
It seems you set it up, play the strat, and now it is beyond the "you set it up" phase?
I realize now you don't actually move the unit into the beginning of the first battle round, after deployment is done. So in a sense you play the strat, and "save up" the 9" move until everyone is done deploying?

It seems that is the crux here. How long does the "after a unit is set up" thing last and what are its parameters. I find no rules on that.

The sequencing rules deal with this:

BRB, Page 178 wrote:While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

I set up the unit, then use the stratagem multiple times when the unit is set up. We now have two or more rules trying to resolve (the use of the stratagem, the effect triggers later) at the same time, thus sequencing comes into play. When the stratagem takes effect, the same happens and Sequencing kicks in.

Hypothetically, if there was a stratagem that said "Use this Stratagem during deployment, when your opponent sets up an INFANTRY unit", your logic would state that the possibility of both me using Apoplectic Fury on the unit and the opponent using their stratagem on the unit is impossible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You can use the Strat when you set a unit up. You only set a unit up once. Conclusion: you can only use it once, As you only set each unit up once, and the OP is incorrect in their conclusion.

Except you can use stratagems multiple times in deployment. Nothing prohibits me using the same stratagem on a single unit multiple times outside of a restriction in the stratagem itself.

Tell me, why does the Alpha Legion stratagem Forward Operatives (post errata), almost word for word the same, have a restriction saying "Each unit can only be selected for this Stratagem once per battle." while Apoplectic Fury does not?

Codex: Chaos Space Marines errata wrote:Page 166 – Forward Operatives
Change this Stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem during deployment, when you set up an Alpha Legion Infantry unit from your army. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first. Each unit can only be selected for this Stratagem once per battle.’

If you could only select it once, there would be no need for the restriction. Ergo, you can select a unit multiple times unless the stratagem forbids it. The Faith and Fury errata makes no change to Apoplectic Fury as the CSM Codex errata did.

If it takes a post as long as your first and second combined to try and make your case, for a Strat only a paragraph long, I think even you can acknowledge you’re reaching.

Another one to file under “not actually a problem in the real world and just one to argue about online”.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

It seems that is the crux here. How long does the "after a unit is set up" thing last and what are its parameters. I find no rules on that.

The sequencing rules deal with this:

BRB, Page 178 wrote:While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

I set up the unit, then use the stratagem multiple times when the unit is set up. We now have two or more rules trying to resolve (the use of the stratagem, the effect triggers later) at the same time, thus sequencing comes into play. When the stratagem takes effect, the same happens and Sequencing kicks in.

I suppose you'll find the argument that you aren't trying to resolve two or more rules at once, but the same rule multiple times not convincing?

Tell me, why does the Alpha Legion stratagem Forward Operatives (post errata), almost word for word the same, have a restriction saying "Each unit can only be selected for this Stratagem once per battle." while Apoplectic Fury does not?

Codex: Chaos Space Marines errata wrote:Page 166 – Forward Operatives
Change this Stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem during deployment, when you set up an Alpha Legion Infantry unit from your army. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9". It cannot end this move within 9" of any enemy models. If both players have units that can move before the first turn begins, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first. Each unit can only be selected for this Stratagem once per battle.’

If you could only select it once, there would be no need for the restriction. Ergo, you can select a unit multiple times unless the stratagem forbids it. The Faith and Fury errata makes no change to Apoplectic Fury as the CSM Codex errata did.

All he needs to do now is argue the illegitimacy of a Tempestus army getting their doctrines if they include even a single Advisor, and he can win a game before Turn 1 even takes place!

Slayer6 wrote:
All he needs to do now is argue the illegitimacy of a Tempestus army getting their doctrines if they include even a single Advisor, and he can win a game before Turn 1 even takes place!

Unnecessary. He could and did argue that with the original rules. Even though he was wrong then, the issue is over, now. There are still plenty of other thing to argue about the current rules for the Militarum Tempestus now, but this isn’t the thread for it. We were just arguing null rules that first time the new rules came up anyway.

You only set a unit up once. The stratagem is only used when a unit is set up, and the unit isn't un-set up. Therefore, as the unit is only deployed once, it can only be affected once.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Slayer6 wrote:
All he needs to do now is argue the illegitimacy of a Tempestus army getting their doctrines if they include even a single Advisor, and he can win a game before Turn 1 even takes place!

Unnecessary. He could and did argue that with the original rules. Even though he was wrong then, the issue is over, now. There are still plenty of other thing to argue about the current rules for the Militarum Tempestus now, but this isn’t the thread for it. We were just arguing null rules that first time the new rules came up anyway.

It's essentially the same problem: a rule that has had an obligatory line omitted, yet does not have anything alluding to whether or not it is able to do something. Field Commanders in Vigilus Defiant mention being allowed to be used multiple times, Requisition Operative Sanctioned mentions it can only be used once. Then you have this one, where it reads basically the same as the Guard Scout Sentinel rule, but costs 1CP to use...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You only set a unit up once. The stratagem is only used when a unit is set up, and the unit isn't un-set up. Therefore, as the unit is only deployed once, it can only be affected once.

Agreed.

BCB is partially correct.

You can use a Stratagem during deployment as often as you want. There's no limit like there are with phases, just spend command points to your heart's content.

The point I think he's getting wrong is the ability to move 45" across the board. While there's no limitation on the number of times the Stratagem can be applied to a single unit, the language is clear that the Stratagem is used when the unit is set up and allows a move up to 9".

That 9" is a limit. Each application of the Stratagem happens at immediately at the start of the first battle round, not sequentially after some movement has occurred. Thus, the Stratagem can be applied multiple times, but the total distance moved can never exceed that upper bound of 9". It's pointless to use it more than once.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You only set a unit up once. The stratagem is only used when a unit is set up, and the unit isn't un-set up. Therefore, as the unit is only deployed once, it can only be affected once.

But technically you could use that strat 3 times when you set up a single unit and then sequencing would come into play. So it can be affected multiple times.

 techsoldaten wrote:
BCB is partially correct.

You can use a Stratagem during deployment as often as you want. There's no limit like there are with phases, just spend command points to your heart's content.

The point I think he's getting wrong is the ability to move 45" across the board. While there's no limitation on the number of times the Stratagem can be applied to a single unit, the language is clear that the Stratagem is used when the unit is set up and allows a move up to 9".

That 9" is a limit. Each application of the Stratagem happens at immediately at the start of the first battle round, not sequentially after some movement has occurred. Thus, the Stratagem can be applied multiple times, but the total distance moved can never exceed that upper bound of 9". It's pointless to use it more than once.

Then why is there a restriction on the Alpha Legion version? If what you say is true there would be no reason for the restriction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If it takes a post as long as your first and second combined to try and make your case, for a Strat only a paragraph long, I think even you can acknowledge you’re reaching.

Another one to file under “not actually a problem in the real world and just one to argue about online”.

It's almost like I take the time to properly cite my arguments or something. If you weren't actually going to address my arguments, why bother posting?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
BCB is partially correct.

You can use a Stratagem during deployment as often as you want. There's no limit like there are with phases, just spend command points to your heart's content.

The point I think he's getting wrong is the ability to move 45" across the board. While there's no limitation on the number of times the Stratagem can be applied to a single unit, the language is clear that the Stratagem is used when the unit is set up and allows a move up to 9".

That 9" is a limit. Each application of the Stratagem happens at immediately at the start of the first battle round, not sequentially after some movement has occurred. Thus, the Stratagem can be applied multiple times, but the total distance moved can never exceed that upper bound of 9". It's pointless to use it more than once.

Then why is there a restriction on the Alpha Legion version? If what you say is true there would be no reason for the restriction.

Because GW is bad at writing rules. The last sentence in the alpha legion version makes no sense. You cannot set up a unit more than once, unless you remove it from the battlefield via special rule. This doesnt happen here.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
BCB is partially correct.

You can use a Stratagem during deployment as often as you want. There's no limit like there are with phases, just spend command points to your heart's content.

The point I think he's getting wrong is the ability to move 45" across the board. While there's no limitation on the number of times the Stratagem can be applied to a single unit, the language is clear that the Stratagem is used when the unit is set up and allows a move up to 9".

That 9" is a limit. Each application of the Stratagem happens at immediately at the start of the first battle round, not sequentially after some movement has occurred. Thus, the Stratagem can be applied multiple times, but the total distance moved can never exceed that upper bound of 9". It's pointless to use it more than once.

Then why is there a restriction on the Alpha Legion version? If what you say is true there would be no reason for the restriction.

Because GW is bad at writing rules. The last sentence in the alpha legion version makes no sense. You cannot set up a unit more than once, unless you remove it from the battlefield via special rule. This doesnt happen here.

Aye.

You set up a unit once in the deployment phase. ergo you can once apocalyptic fury it.

(alltough AL can move during deployment again via warlord traits etc.)

Not Online!!! wrote:

(alltough AL can move during deployment again via warlord traits etc.)

They can redeploy up to three units following the usual deployment rules, via WLT. But they cant move during deployment again, after using forward operatives.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye.

You set up a unit once in the deployment phase. ergo you can once apocalyptic fury it.

(alltough AL can move during deployment again via warlord traits etc.)

Yes, I set up the unit once, and use Apoplectic Fury on it 6 times when it sets up. I can use the same stratagem multiple times during deployment and nothing prohibits me from using the stratagem multiple times off the same set up trigger. If I couldn't then the Alpha Legion stratagem would not need the restriction.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye.

You set up a unit once in the deployment phase. ergo you can once apocalyptic fury it.

(alltough AL can move during deployment again via warlord traits etc.)

Yes, I set up the unit once, and use Apoplectic Fury on it 6 times when it sets up. I can use the same stratagem multiple times during deployment and nothing prohibits me from using the stratagem multiple times off the same set up trigger. If I couldn't then the Alpha Legion stratagem would not need the restriction.

You can use it six times on the same unit, but after sequencing kicks in you cannot resolve the other five stratagems, because the unit has already been set up the first time. You cant ignore the set up condition of the stratagem, and just move it further and further.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Aye.

You set up a unit once in the deployment phase. ergo you can once apocalyptic fury it.

(alltough AL can move during deployment again via warlord traits etc.)

Yes, I set up the unit once, and use Apoplectic Fury on it 6 times when it sets up. I can use the same stratagem multiple times during deployment and nothing prohibits me from using the stratagem multiple times off the same set up trigger. If I couldn't then the Alpha Legion stratagem would not need the restriction.

You can use it six times on the same unit, but after sequencing kicks in you cannot resolve the other five stratagems, because the unit has already been set up the first time. You cant ignore the set up condition of the stratagem, and just move it further and further.

That... isn't how sequencing works. Otherwise sequencing would never work. You bring in two units at the end of the movement phase, once you've set one unit up it's no longer the end of the movement phase so you can't set up the 2nd unit. The ENTIRE POINT of the sequencing rule is that you resolve rules sequentially because they can't be resolved in parallel.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
BCB is partially correct.

You can use a Stratagem during deployment as often as you want. There's no limit like there are with phases, just spend command points to your heart's content.

The point I think he's getting wrong is the ability to move 45" across the board. While there's no limitation on the number of times the Stratagem can be applied to a single unit, the language is clear that the Stratagem is used when the unit is set up and allows a move up to 9".

That 9" is a limit. Each application of the Stratagem happens at immediately at the start of the first battle round, not sequentially after some movement has occurred. Thus, the Stratagem can be applied multiple times, but the total distance moved can never exceed that upper bound of 9". It's pointless to use it more than once.

Then why is there a restriction on the Alpha Legion version? If what you say is true there would be no reason for the restriction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If it takes a post as long as your first and second combined to try and make your case, for a Strat only a paragraph long, I think even you can acknowledge you’re reaching.

Another one to file under “not actually a problem in the real world and just one to argue about online”.

It's almost like I take the time to properly cite my arguments or something. If you weren't actually going to address my arguments, why bother posting?

Your "argument" has already been refuted by me and everyone else posting, so try again. Your premise is based off an impossible condition - setting up a unit multiple times isn't normally possible (outside of redeploy Strats etc.). So, TL;DR, no. If you can't accept this error that's not on me, and you seem to be arguing to argue. Tried to help, but you do you.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Your "argument" has already been refuted by me and everyone else posting, so try again. Your premise is based off an impossible condition - setting up a unit multiple times isn't normally possible (outside of redeploy Strats etc.). So, TL;DR, no. If you can't accept this error that's not on me, and you seem to be arguing to argue. Tried to help, but you do you.

You haven't refuted anything. You're simply disagreeing because you don't like the end result. I agree it's stupid, but I have set to see any argument against what I have laid out in the OP. The sequencing rule is very clear, you can trigger multiple rules off the same trigger, and then resolve them sequentially.

Have you tried this in real life BCB?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Have you tried this in real life BCB?

I plan on doing so tonight, and I've actually had agreement on Discord about how this works (from someone who is very much a RaI person too).

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Have you tried this in real life BCB?

I plan on doing so tonight, and I've actually had agreement on Discord about how this works (from someone who is very much a RaI person too).

Interesting. You not on lockdown?

Anyways here's my take -

"Use this stratagem during deployment, when you set up a WORLD EATERS INFANTRY unit from your army..." - as discussed the stratagem can be used multiple times despite the set up requirement because it's during deployment.

"...At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can move that unit up to 9"..." - this is the key bit for me. Regardless of how many time you use the stratagem, my reading here is that it only triggers once and it only allows movement up to 9". Edit 2 - the better way of phrasing this is that the stratagem triggers multiple times but it's effects are the same as if it had been used once only. There is no need for sequencing because the movement ability only triggers once therefore the unit only moves 9" max. 'At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, you can do x' does not imply you can do x then x again then x again because you used the stratagem multiple times. All of the stratagem effects trigger at exactly the same time and they all allow up to 9" movement from the units current position on the board. NOT their new position after moving 9" with another use of the same stratagem.

I hope that helps? Not a take I've seen in the thread yet.

Edit - I thought sequencing was used when it was impossible to resolve the effects of something in tandem which is not the case here? The effect can trigger in tandem, it just doesn't allow a player to move all the way up the board.

Apologies if this isn't explained well - I'm rushing my response while working.

I am using Tabletop Simulator.

The "up to 9 inches" restriction is not a grand total restriction, it's a restriction on each instance of the stratagem. If the stratagem said "A maximum of 9" from it's starting position", I'd agree it can only happen once.

For example, you could use the Lightning Fast Reflexes stratagem and the Conceal psychic power to stack multiple -1 to hits on an Aeldari unit. Your logic would say that you can only get at most -1 to hit, which is untrue. Or in Narrative play you could use Lightning Fast Reflexes multiple times.

I'm going to concede this one to BCB. There is a fatal flaw in the Stratagem rules that has been papered over by the Matched Play restriction that you can only use an specific stratagem once in a phase. Without this restriction, there is nothing preventing any single trigger from being used to trigger a stratagem as many times as you want unless that specific stratagem limits itself.

That being said, I believe we can agree that GW very well might intend such a limitation to exist. Otherwise, it will be trivially easy in a non-Matched Play game to trigger a stratagem multiple times to OP effect.

"I'm firing my Thunderfire Cannon at your Dark Reapers."
"I spend 4 CP to use Lightning Reflexes 4 times. You hit are -4 to hit. Since your BS is 3+, all your attacks miss."

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You bring in two units at the end of the movement phase, once you've set one unit up it's no longer the end of the movement phase so you can't set up the 2nd unit.

You are wrong. There is precedent that something can happen after the end of phase X.

Q: When using an ability or Stratagem at the end of the Fight
phase to immediately fight again (e.g. Fury of Khorne) and the
selected unit moves within 1" of an enemy unit that has not yet
fought this phase, after fighting with the unit selected, can that
enemy unit now fight even though it’s the end of the Fight phase?
A: Yes.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You bring in two units at the end of the movement phase, once you've set one unit up it's no longer the end of the movement phase so you can't set up the 2nd unit.

You are wrong. There is precedent that something can happen after the end of phase X.

Q: When using an ability or Stratagem at the end of the Fight
phase to immediately fight again (e.g. Fury of Khorne) and the
selected unit moves within 1" of an enemy unit that has not yet
fought this phase, after fighting with the unit selected, can that
enemy unit now fight even though it’s the end of the Fight phase?
A: Yes.

Special Snowflake FAQs are just that, Special Snowflake. They do not create precedent, because as you well know GW has in the past and still to this day have outright contradictory FAQs, the best example being negative modifiers and Necron Quantum Shielding.

I thought, and quite happy to be shown wrong, that there was a restriction that units can only be affected by something once. This was a side effect of stacking modifiers on a unit. GW had ruled that effects counted once from identically named sources.

Cant find it though in any of the FaQs.

Andrew