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Basically to his shock, Sanguinius manages to basically kill Horus. The Emperor comes in and sees Sanguinius behead Horus' corpse.

What will happen now?

GW never creates 40k,Millions of people worldwide never grow up to be unwashed uber nerds, this forum is never created, and thus you are never able to ask this question..

Chaos resurrects Horus, who then kills Sanguinius...

We don't know if Horus can be conventionally killed at that point - the Emperor nuked his soul.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanguinius killing the Emperor then taking over would be an interesting twist (until the Imperial Webway collapsed).

This "what if" plot is covered in Ruinstorm although in this instance it is Chaos tempting Sanguinius as they regard him as a more valuable pawn than Horus. Let's assume the vision was genuine, this is how it pans out.

In his vision, the Emperor is still alive but has to return to the Golden Throne shortly after the Siege in order to keep the shattered webway gate closed. However he is still properly alive and can communicate meaning he can still provide leadership and guidance unlike the real 40K timeline. Perturabo and Lorgar were captured during the breaking oof the Siege and imprisoned, this meaning the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors do not flee to the Eye in Legion strength. Sanguinius hopes for their eventual redemption but is realistic that it may never happen. The Daemon Primarchs and their Legions are still exiled to the Eye during the Scouring but are a lesser threat.

Basically the Imperium survives the Heresy in much better shape. The Emperor is still there to provide leadership (albeit rather detached). Sanguinius becomes Regent, echoing Roboute's role after his resurrection. The Tratitors are a much weaker force as they have 2 fewer Primarchs left on their side and the Loyalists are stronger as they still have Sanguinius. With the Emperor still alive, it is reasonable to assume Russ would never have left and Dorn would not have committed suicide-by-traitor. The Lion, Khan, Guilliman and Corax might or might not have met their respective fates as their fates were not directly tied to the survival of the Emperor.

Likely the Imperium would have been much stronger as the traitors would have been weaker and the Imperium would likely have had the leadership of 3 Primarchs during the last 10,000 years.

Does losing Lorgar and Perturabo really damage the Imperium that much in the long term? Lorgar is... Lorgar and apart from the Iron Cage, Perturabo doesn't seem to do much. Ever.

beast_gts wrote:
Chaos resurrects Horus, who then kills Sanguinius...

We don't know if Horus can be conventionally killed at that point - the Emperor nuked his soul.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanguinius killing the Emperor then taking over would be an interesting twist (until the Imperial Webway collapsed).

But in this scenario the Emperor would be there to oblirterate Horus permanently after Sanguinius kills Horus.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
Chaos resurrects Horus, who then kills Sanguinius...

We don't know if Horus can be conventionally killed at that point - the Emperor nuked his soul.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sanguinius killing the Emperor then taking over would be an interesting twist (until the Imperial Webway collapsed).

But in this scenario the Emperor would be there to oblirterate Horus permanently after Sanguinius kills Horus.

But would he? In the original versions it's either seeing Sanguinius's dead body, or Horus killing the lone Custode / Ollanius Pius, that makes the Emperor go all-out on Horus. If neither of those things happen what would he do?

Erm we do know Horus can be killed because Zardu Layak states Horus is running out of time not just because the Ultramarines are getting closer but because the powers given to him are destroying him. The traitor primarchs are largely claimed by a single god , but a daemon at that point in the Heresy cannot be of all four factions. (Lost and the Damned / First Wall)

I don’t believe that when we finally get the real detail of the showdown at the end they it’ll be what the 40k fluff says. The Emperor will know Pious is an immortal , Horus has killed billions so seeing one more cannon fodder die isn’t going to sway the Emperor given we now know any of his troops less than Custodes are considered tools.

Horus also failed to kill Russ , and the Emperor sanctioned the killing of at least one of the missing legions , as confirmed in First Wall. So seeing Sanguinus dead isn’t likely to trigger some kind of rage.

But back to the OP....

A new era and a new crusade to purge Chaos. The Legions remain Legions. Eventually the chaos threat is contained to the Eye. Successive threats are met and contained. At one point an invasion of the Eye.

beast_gts wrote:Chaos resurrects Horus, who then kills Sanguinius... We don't know if Horus can be conventionally killed at that point - the Emperor nuked his soul.

Pretty much this. Horus was brimming with warp magic that same way the Emperor is by that time in the heresy. You can't even compare him to purely (or mostly) physical beings.

TwilightSparkles wrote:Erm we do know Horus can be killed because Zardu Layak states Horus is running out of time not just because the Ultramarines are getting closer but because the powers given to him are destroying him. The traitor primarchs are largely claimed by a single god , but a daemon at that point in the Heresy cannot be of all four factions. (Lost and the Damned / First Wall)

I don’t believe that when we finally get the real detail of the showdown at the end it’ll be what the 40k fluff says. The Emperor will know Pious is an immortal, Horus has killed billions so seeing one more cannon fodder die isn’t going to sway the Emperor given we now know any of his troops less than Custodes are considered tools.

Horus also failed to kill Russ, and the Emperor sanctioned the killing of at least one of the missing legions, as confirmed in First Wall. So seeing Sanguinus dead isn’t likely to trigger some kind of rage.

The Emperor was quite sanguine about sitting idly by as 90%[ of his Custodes were killed. That's guardsmen's level of casualties. It's plausible that, when Pious steps in, the Emperor will see that Horus is strong enough to permanently kill a perpetual, a kind of injury that would give no hope of the Emperor coming back, And so realizing that, the Emperor goes super saiyan and deletes Horus. Just keep in mind that with Russ, he had that fancy spear that Emperor gave him, and Horus wasn't quite as powerful as he was during the siege.

It seems like what is happening to Horus is similar to what happened to that girl in Plague Wars, the one possessed by the Emperor. It's like their bodies are being torn apart as they get possessed by the entities empowering them. Sorta like the incarnates from the End Times, only more temporary and more dark.

I'm going to note the new Valdore novel throws the whole "ohh the emperor doesn't care about the primarchs exact as tools" thing once more into doubt.

And one thing that could prove interesting is if the Emperor himself hunts down and kills every single traitor Primarch after Horus is dealt with.

How much better off would the Imperium be post-HH if all the Traitor Primarchs were killed by the Emperor? Because AFAIK the Traitor Primarchs are one of the biggest threats to the Imperium in the 41st millenium.

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm going to note the new Valdore novel throws the whole "ohh the emperor doesn't care about the primarchs exact as tools" thing once more into doubt.

But how?

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
And one thing that could prove interesting is if the Emperor himself hunts down and kills every single traitor Primarch after Horus is dealt with.

How much better off would the Imperium be post-HH if all the Traitor Primarchs were killed by the Emperor? Because AFAIK the Traitor Primarchs are one of the biggest threats to the Imperium in the 41st millenium.

He cannot do that, if he does he loses control of the webway, the daemons consume terra, they lose the astronomican as part of this, they can no longer warp travel safely, as well as losing terra....

He is stuck to that throne, the only hope he would have is creating a new magnus of sorts to sit for him, but he may not be able to do that from the throne.... It would also take so long to do that and the new primarch to mature that the traitor primarchs would be long gone within the eye.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm going to note the new Valdore novel throws the whole "ohh the emperor doesn't care about the primarchs exact as tools" thing once more into doubt.

But how?

the book deals with the end of the war of unification and the kernals of the great crusade. Malchadore is talking to Valdore and says when discussing the news that the primarchs may in fact be alive and that the Emperor wishes to hunt for them..

"He is detirmined to hunt for them. He has taken to refering to them as his "sons". Can you imagine that? Neither could I until I heard it from his own lips. There might be some lingering attachment there, though how long it will last I cannot say" Valdore hestitated "then his human sentiments, they are still ebbing" "As he predicted. All things have their price"

I think there's some VERY intreasting info here.

The imperium never descends into the dark age of ignorance and superstition it did, there is no emperor worship and no imperial cult which was actually based o a copy of lorgar's work.

Maybe the emperor realizes he was wrong to withhold knowledge of chaos and institutes a regime of Chaos Awareness Resistance Education.

Psykers don't need to be fed to the emperor so many can be used in a carefully monitored program to breed a superior and resistant human psyker.

Then chaos finds a way to screw it all up anyway. Or maybe the eldar sabotage it as their egos cant stand to see humanity eclipse their imagined greatness....

The black ships gathering and ‘damage controlling’ ‘dangerous’ psykers was the emperor’s plan. If he was alive they’d still be used in a way that eliminates dangerous psykers and puts atrong controls on the ‘safe’ ones.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm going to note the new Valdore novel throws the whole "ohh the emperor doesn't care about the primarchs exact as tools" thing once more into doubt.

But how?

the book deals with the end of the war of unification and the kernals of the great crusade. Malchadore is talking to Valdore and says when discussing the news that the primarchs may in fact be alive and that the Emperor wishes to hunt for them..

"He is detirmined to hunt for them. He has taken to refering to them as his "sons". Can you imagine that? Neither could I until I heard it from his own lips. There might be some lingering attachment there, though how long it will last I cannot say" Valdore hestitated "then his human sentiments, they are still ebbing" "As he predicted. All things have their price"

I think there's some VERY intreasting info here.

I don't think that's enough to credibly claim he cared personally. Referring to them as sons and a potential lingering attachment isn't making up for things like expecting them to merrily do whatever they're told because he says so.

@BrianDavion
When I lose my phone and suspect it is not destroyed, I will certainly hunt for it but I will never think of it as my son.

 Eipi10 wrote:
@BrianDavion
When I lose my phone and suspect it is not destroyed, I will certainly hunt for it but I will never think of it as my son.

indeed. if you refered to something as your son it would suggest SOME degree of sentimentality...

I think more intreasting though is the comment at the end.



". There might be some lingering attachment there, though how long it will last I cannot say" Valdore hestitated "then his human sentiments, they are still ebbing" "As he predicted. All things have their price"


the implicastions here are pretty clear. the emperor has done something that has gradually removed his ability to experiance "human sentiments" what this is is up for debate, but I bet it had to do with long suspected deal he made with chaos to be able to make the primarchs. If true this actually adds some new depth to the whole deal. where the emperor may have belived he "got one over" on the chaos gods, but actually hurt himself long term, (a fairly common theme of the Faustian pact in stories)

Well, it would certainly explain his sterling personality.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Well, it would certainly explain his sterling personality.

exactly. also it might explain things a bit if he actually was a somewhat decent father at the start and it slowly withered.

it also would explain the age old bit about how the emperor held back, it stands to reason Horus would be the one his sentiment would wither for last.

 Eipi10 wrote:
@BrianDavion
When I lose my phone and suspect it is not destroyed, I will certainly hunt for it but I will never think of it as my son.

Where the Primarchs were developed using the Emperor's DNA (presumably to contain all the warp power going into them) it's not entirely incorrect to call them as such. How much of your DNA is in your phone?

Plus there's the whole 'keeping up appearances' that gets explored in the Valdor novel.

 Nurglitch wrote:
How much of your DNA is in your phone?

Given the habits of some people, that may not be the best question to ask...

 Nurglitch wrote:
Where the Primarchs were developed using the Emperor's DNA (presumably to contain all the warp power going into them) it's not entirely incorrect to call them as such. How much of your DNA is in your phone?

Plus there's the whole 'keeping up appearances' that gets explored in the Valdor novel.

I've always thought clone was a better term. It depends on if he started with his own DNA and then altered it to be unique for each primarch, or began with a synthesized proto-primarch, and then spliced in bits of unique DNA. Granted, I don't even think the emperor really had DNA that could be considered his own in any meaningful sense. He is such a powerful psyker that he should be able to alter his genetic code with a thought. I would even say that him having a real, physical body is debatable. In fact, does he even have a psychical body, I'm not sure if he has ever touched a living person in any story. Even in MoM the closest he came was crushing a severed head with his boot.

 Eipi10 wrote:
I would even say that him having a real, physical body is debatable. In fact, does he even have a psychical body, I'm not sure if he has ever touched a living person in any story. Even in MoM the closest he came was crushing a severed head with his boot.

Some of the Sisters of Silence claim to have seen the 'real' Emperor as they're unaffected by his psychic projections.

It is possible that Corax saw him too. Apparently Corax could see the golden glamour that the Emperor projected but could also see a tall, rather plain man behind it. This roughly matches the brief description of what the Sisters of Silence see in MoM. It is pretty clear he has a physical body, otherwise Horus wouldn't have been able to mortally wound him the way he did.

One of the BL writers mentioned that remaining anchored in the physical plane was actually one of the Emperor's big advantages over the Big 4 as it allowed him to keep his consciousness focused in time and space.

In "Deliverance Lost", Corax discovered the original undifferentiated Primarch genetic material. Each Primarch was then developed from this baseline. For example, sample 6 (Russ) had elements of DNA apparently derived from canine sources added to it. Sample 20 (Alpharius/Omegon) had certain growth-enhancing sequences deleted (to allow them to better blend in with their Marines).

beast_gts wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
I would even say that him having a real, physical body is debatable. In fact, does he even have a psychical body, I'm not sure if he has ever touched a living person in any story. Even in MoM the closest he came was crushing a severed head with his boot.

Some of the Sisters of Silence claim to have seen the 'real' Emperor as they're unaffected by his psychic projections.

I wonder if most people who see the throne see the rotting corpse of the emperor, or if his spirit manages to project the lionesque human which he usually chose to appear as.

nareik wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
I would even say that him having a real, physical body is debatable. In fact, does he even have a psychical body, I'm not sure if he has ever touched a living person in any story. Even in MoM the closest he came was crushing a severed head with his boot.

Some of the Sisters of Silence claim to have seen the 'real' Emperor as they're unaffected by his psychic projections.

I wonder if most people who see the throne see the rotting corpse of the emperor, or if his spirit manages to project the lionesque human which he usually chose to appear as.

I would assume that special guests like Alica Dominica see a projection and everyone else is either a Custodes/special enough person they can be trusted to deal with the fact he's a corpse or just not leaving the Throne Room enough to talk.

Maybe, Sangy did save the day.
But after dropping Horus, he was found by the Emp.
Crouched over Horus's body, suffering the thirst.
Turns out his dreams were the Emps hands around his throat.

How many people get an audience with the Emperor? Outside the Custodes, I would imagine it has been only a handful over the millennia.