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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Looking at the (imo) very ugly buggy with two primaris on it got me thinking...
Why would you put two astartes, the pinnacle of human warfare, in charge of operating a vehicle that two very expendable guardsmen could do just as well?

I get any form of transport to bring them to where they need to be but this just seem like waste of space marines.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I don’t know how the ATV got through product testing. Can’t wait to see the raven wing version of this travesty


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah it would suit IG loads better

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 12:36:34


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

Guardsmen could not operate it nearly as well.

Marines have better reflexes, can take more punishment, and have much better skills than your average guardsmen. In an ideal world, where the buggy does not take any incoming fire, is just shooting static targets, and there isn’t a lot going on, sure guard could probably get comparable results.

But zooming across some broken poison hellscape, dodging fire and obstacles, trying to like up the shot on the big bad with one hand while fending off gribbly things clawing at the bumper? That’s why you have Marines running them.

Stop thinking logically and start thinking cinematically. 40k does not hold up well to common sense. If we go down that road, none of numbers make sense, everything should just be guard and orbital bombardment, and a host of other flaws in the system show up. Embrace the Rule of Cool.

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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Stop thinking logically and start thinking cinematically. 40k does not hold up well to common sense


^ This.
seriously guys, the "great revealtions" that the new marine unit doesn;t make sense isn't a great revelation.I mean 40k is rediculas, over the top and illogical

THATS THE POINT


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




What the above 2 posters said.

However I am very surprised that Chapter Serfs, many of whom are genetically advanced and trained but whose bodies failed one of the genetic modification stages, haven't been said to be the pilots of SM vehicles in the fluff(they help pilot their biggest vehicles - their spacecraft in the fluff, so why not the rest?). With the advanced machine spirits that SM vehicles have, that should really be enough fluff wise. Plus they would be trusted by the chapter above guard.

Plus 2 Marines sat hanging out in a Rhino after its delivered the squad doesn't feel very cinematic and I imagine that many Marines in quite a few chapters would consider piloting a rhino a considerable punishment.
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Stop thinking logically and start thinking cinematically. 40k does not hold up well to common sense


^ This.
seriously guys, the "great revealtions" that the new marine unit doesn;t make sense isn't a great revelation.I mean 40k is rediculas, over the top and illogical

THATS THE POINT



I know this, exactly why i engaged in a silly discussion about.
But all the silly over the top stuff aside, two marines piloting a buggy is even too silly to be anything but stupid.

   
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 Nevelon wrote:
Guardsmen could not operate it nearly as well.


Tell that to the Elysians.

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The "marines" are just servitors in paper mache marine suits to confuse the enemy.

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Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Looking at the very ugly buggy....I feel sorry for the poor old driver who, due to the lack of mudguards, will inevitably be showered with mud and detritus by the front wheels. I do also wonder what the point of the gunner is, considering that he is positioned in such a way that makes it impossible for the main gun to turn.

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Poly Ranger wrote:
What the above 2 posters said.

However I am very surprised that Chapter Serfs, many of whom are genetically advanced and trained but whose bodies failed one of the genetic modification stages, haven't been said to be the pilots of SM vehicles in the fluff(they help pilot their biggest vehicles - their spacecraft in the fluff, so why not the rest?). With the advanced machine spirits that SM vehicles have, that should really be enough fluff wise. Plus they would be trusted by the chapter above guard.

Plus 2 Marines sat hanging out in a Rhino after its delivered the squad doesn't feel very cinematic and I imagine that many Marines in quite a few chapters would consider piloting a rhino a considerable punishment.


I would have loved them to have done more (something) with Chapter serfs - this would have been another great opportunity for vehicles and gun platforms - seriously lefts have a Techmarine man a single gun :(

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 Mr Morden wrote:
Poly Ranger wrote:
What the above 2 posters said.

However I am very surprised that Chapter Serfs, many of whom are genetically advanced and trained but whose bodies failed one of the genetic modification stages, haven't been said to be the pilots of SM vehicles in the fluff(they help pilot their biggest vehicles - their spacecraft in the fluff, so why not the rest?). With the advanced machine spirits that SM vehicles have, that should really be enough fluff wise. Plus they would be trusted by the chapter above guard.

Plus 2 Marines sat hanging out in a Rhino after its delivered the squad doesn't feel very cinematic and I imagine that many Marines in quite a few chapters would consider piloting a rhino a considerable punishment.


I would have loved them to have done more (something) with Chapter serfs - this would have been another great opportunity for vehicles and gun platforms - seriously lefts have a Techmarine man a single gun :(


I'm surprised after all these years that they haven't tbf. If collecting a full company you should only have squads of 8 tactical Marines for example since 2 are in the rhino piloting itit which obviously doesn't happen.
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I think the new primariocart is proof of a new ability for loyalists: And They Shall Know No Shame.


At least it's not forgeworld. Whoever thought those knights were a good idea should be hogtied and tied to a train tracks.

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Made in gb
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Soulless wrote:But all the silly over the top stuff aside, two marines piloting a buggy is even too silly to be anything but stupid.
But two marines piloting a floating buggy isn't?

I'm, of course, talking about the Proteus Patter Land Speeder.
Spoiler:


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Port Carmine

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Soulless wrote:But all the silly over the top stuff aside, two marines piloting a buggy is even too silly to be anything but stupid.
But two marines piloting a floating buggy isn't?

I'm, of course, talking about the Proteus Patter Land Speeder.
Spoiler:



To be fair, at least the turret on that one appears capable of actually rotating.

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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Soulless wrote:But all the silly over the top stuff aside, two marines piloting a buggy is even too silly to be anything but stupid.
But two marines piloting a floating buggy isn't?

I'm, of course, talking about the Proteus Patter Land Speeder.
Spoiler:



It is
But at least it wont have any issues with uneven ground, mud or sand!
   
Made in fr
Storm Trooper with Maglight




France

Actually even the core aesthetics of 40k such as leman russes and rhinos for exemple, looking like literal bricks, is silly anyway!

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Made in us
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 harlokin wrote:
Looking at the very ugly buggy....I feel sorry for the poor old driver who, due to the lack of mudguards, will inevitably be showered with mud and detritus by the front wheels. I do also wonder what the point of the gunner is, considering that he is positioned in such a way that makes it impossible for the main gun to turn.


Did you look at the 360 view for the model? The back is just as hilarious as the front.
The gunner is on an unsupported shelf above the exhaust, and can either cling to the gun, or grab side handles set at mid thigh. Any incoming shots from the rear are pretty much certain to hit him in the back or butt, or blow huge chunks out of the gigantic tires.

I'm not actually convinced there is an engine on the thing. The only possible place for it is behind the drivers back, below the gun in front of the gunner's knees. There is an access panel at his knees, so probably there. Though it seems to vent in the front, to either side of the driver.

Also as another fun quibble, the vision slit in the gunshield is noticeably too low. The camera view catches the gunners mouth grill, not his eyes, and stray rounds going over the gunshield are going to hit him in the head.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Actually even the core aesthetics of 40k such as leman russes and rhinos for exemple, looking like literal bricks, is silly anyway!

The Russ is inspired by actual WWI tanks, particularly the Mark V and the Char B1. It's definitely bad by modern tank design standards, but that's intentional. But it works with ideas that actual (but inexperienced) tank engineers came up with.

This looks like a Mario Cart provided most of the physics and functionality.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/04 20:45:54


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Soulless wrote:But all the silly over the top stuff aside, two marines piloting a buggy is even too silly to be anything but stupid.
But two marines piloting a floating buggy isn't?

I'm, of course, talking about the Proteus Patter Land Speeder.
Spoiler:



...that would be the kit which is a homage to the original RT Land Speeder design, not what is meant to be the cutting edge of deus ex Cawl's design philosophy?

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Made in nl
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your mind

BrianDavion wrote:
Stop thinking logically and start thinking cinematically. 40k does not hold up well to common sense


^ This.
seriously guys, the "great revealtions" that the new marine unit doesn;t make sense isn't a great revelation.I mean 40k is rediculas, over the top and illogical

THATS THE POINT



Ok, cinematically speaking, that buggy with two marines is a silly mess.
Restartes have flying tanks, now they have land speeders on wheels.
Ridi cu lous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I think the new primariocart is proof of a new ability for loyalists: And They Shall Know No Shame.

Exalted for troofiness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 21:23:41


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

There has always been a lot of overlap between attack bikes (which the ATV is a replacement for) and Land Speeders. Both wheels and anti-grav have done similar jobs.

Like it or not, the wheeled biker marine thing has been with us for a while now. The ATV is just the next (very silly) step down that path.

I think the ATV if a horrible silly mess. But I’m not going to argue that it should not exist. I’m not going to buy any, but it slots into the range just fine.

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I just think it’s sucks, it’s badly thought through. It doesn’t need to make much sense but I just don’t see the point when marine have bikes and land speeders.

To work it needs a better gimmick, like, I dunno, suicide bomb
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Soulless wrote:
Why would you put two astartes, the pinnacle of human warfare, in charge of operating a vehicle that two very expendable guardsmen could do just as well?

Because you watched too many Rambo movies.

Marines have armor on, your guardsman operates it for 2 seconds before being shot.

Marines have magnetic boots, your guardsman operates it for 2 seconds before being thrown clear.

Marines are strong enough to turn heavy gun, your guardsman operates it for 2 seconds before first bump breaks his wrists.

Marines are strong enough to aim and control gun, your guardsman never manages to hit anything to begin with.

Want 50 more reasons why your premise was GIGO to begin with or are 4 enough?

 harlokin wrote:
I do also wonder what the point of the gunner is, considering that he is positioned in such a way that makes it impossible for the main gun to turn.

Maybe it will surprise you, but humans have legs. Spoiler alert, they can also rotate torso. One step to the side, lean, and the turret does easy 100 degree turn. Wow!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I kind of like the look of the mario kart and the new stationary guns, but having a marine manning either does seem like a waste. Same with the invictus war suit.

One of the things the fluff tells us to accept about marine lore is that the staggering failure rate of would-be marines and the extreme expense of their special gear is all worth it because a space marine on foot with a bolter is just that effective. His armor and body are durable enough, his aim and bolter are lethal enough, and his squad is effective enough at surgical missions that making space marines is totally a good idea and not silly.

But apparently a space marine isn't so effective that he's not better spent being used as a power armored guidance system for your big guns? And all those surgeries to implant him with special organs were totally necessary to let him drive a go cart better.

Basically, if the best use for a marine is to have him drive a vehicle or man a gun that could have been manned by a non-astartes (especially if you just bothered to armor the cockpits), then it sort of implies that a marine on foot isn't actually that great an investment. Because I'm not sold on the idea that a marine in a go cart is actually so amazingly effective that it puts other vehicles to shame. Like, I don't buy that the buggie is so much better than a squad of sentinels or mechanicus craft that it justifies going to the trouble of building a space marine just to operate it.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Toronto

I always preferred the lore when a marine tank was crewed by like, one techmarine looking after 5 or 6 servitors plugged into all the stations and a really angry AI- sorry- "Machine Spirit"

   
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 McGibs wrote:
I always preferred the lore when a marine tank was crewed by like, one techmarine looking after 5 or 6 servitors plugged into all the stations and a really angry AI- sorry- "Machine Spirit"

That's never been the lore, as far as I'm aware. Back all the way to Rogue Trader (just cracked open the Compendium to double check), while Marine support weapons used to be crewed by servitors under the command of a techmarine, Marine tanks have always been crewed by Marines. Prior to 3rd edition, they could even get out and run around the table.

 
   
Made in nl
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Meh it makes sense to me, it's a marine vehicle why would it not be piloted by marines? Do you think the average chapter would rely on guardsmen/serfs to pilot any of their warmachines? I personally haven't seen it's fluff yet but especially if it is meant to be stuck in CC too it makes sense for marines to pilot it and don't forget marines are more accurate with the guns too.
   
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Indiana

Because if They have to dismount it’s still a space marine?

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Soulless wrote:
Looking at the (imo) very ugly buggy with two primaris on it got me thinking...
Why would you put two astartes, the pinnacle of human warfare, in charge of operating a vehicle that two very expendable guardsmen could do just as well?

I get any form of transport to bring them to where they need to be but this just seem like waste of space marines.
Yes it's silly. Yes it looks like a GI-Joe toy. No it doesn't make any sense and is an absolute waste of Space Marine talents.

That said, it's 40k, most stuff doesn't many any sense. It's all rule of cool, and sometimes that falls flat. I'm not a fan of that particular release at all, it very much looks like a meme'd out Mario Kart kitbash than anything else. However, if you need justification, sometimes there just aren't guardsmen around to man such things, and Marines have to be autonomous. Not sure why between Bikes, Land Speeders, etc they couldn't make do, or how they hamfisted such a Kart into Marine service so quickly (given that it often takes literal millenia to do so), but there ya go.

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Toronto

 insaniak wrote:
 McGibs wrote:
I always preferred the lore when a marine tank was crewed by like, one techmarine looking after 5 or 6 servitors plugged into all the stations and a really angry AI- sorry- "Machine Spirit"

That's never been the lore, as far as I'm aware. Back all the way to Rogue Trader (just cracked open the Compendium to double check), while Marine support weapons used to be crewed by servitors under the command of a techmarine, Marine tanks have always been crewed by Marines. Prior to 3rd edition, they could even get out and run around the table.


Ah, maybe I was getting it confused with Heresy era flyers, which are just brains plugged into supersonic jets.

   
 
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