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Made in de
Snotty Snotling




Hamburg

This question is a bit longer than usual, because the situations it deals with are quite complicated and it touches on areas where the rules break down entirely.

Which rules do count as Strikes Last?
What happens if units get the Fight First rule in the middle of the Fight phase?
What happens with a unit that has two rules that allows it to strike first and is debuffed with a single Strikes Last rule?
How does the Ynnari +1 to hit bit of the Strength from Death rule fit into all of this?


First I post some observations on the Fight phase sequence, so we are all on the same page. The rules are clear and unambiguous, but unnecessarily complicated, so it merits a recapitulation to discuss the not-adequately-defined situations.

First, here are the relevant rule sections:

P.228
Fight phase
Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the player must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it [...]. An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit/or made a charge move in the same turn. If neither player has any eligible units to fight with, the Fight phase ends.

No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase. If all of one player’s eligible units have fought, the opposing player can then fight with their remaining eligible units, one at a time. Note that after an enemy unit has fought and finished its Consolidation move, it might be that previously ineligible units now qualify as such - these units can then be selected to fight with. Once all eligible units have fought, the Fight phase ends and you progress to the Morale phase.

P.229
Charging units fight first
Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

P. 255
Counter-offensive
Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

P. 361/362
Alway Fight First/Last
Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or have a similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

Similarly, some rules say that a certain unit cannot be selected to fight in the Fight phase until after all other units have done so, then players alternate selecting which of those units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it.

Psychic Awakening - Phoenix Rising p. 67
Strength from Death
When a unit is destroyed, units from your army with this ability draw strength from death until the end of the turn.

If a unit is drawing strength from death, that unit fights first in the Fight phase, even if it did not charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have an ability that allows them to fight first in the Fight phase, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model that is drawing strength from death, and that made a charge move this turn or has another ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase, add 1 to the hit roll.

Codex Space Marines p.153
Tempormortis
At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3” of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so.

Codex Necrons p. 110
Obeisance Generators
At the start of the Fight phase, if there [are] any enemy units within Engagement Range of Szarekh, then until the end of the phase, those units cannot fight until after all other eligible units from your army have done so.


GENERAL SEQUENCE AND JUDICIAR-STRIKE LAST

The basic sequence is clear. The players alternate, Strike First/Strike Last cancel each other out. Seems pretty clear. But unfortunately there are some insane intricacies.

Observation 1: “Eligible to fight” is a well defined term. It simply describes a unit that is allowed to fight sometime in the Fight phase, but not necessarily at the time the sequence is at. So a unit can be eligible to fight, but at the same time a player is not allowed to select it right now, because other units come first. This becomes important later.

Lemma 1: Charging is not the same as Always Strikes First.
Reasoning: The first sentences of the Fight First/Last paragraph in the Rare Rules section makes it clear that there is a distinction. “Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or have a similar rules, [...]”
Consequence: Fight Last Rules trump Charging, but cancel each other out with Fight First rules. And even if two Fight First and Fight Last rules cancel each other out, if a unit has charged, it still can fight first.

Observation 2: There are several Strike Last rules that work differently, depending on the wording. Basically there are two kinds of abilities. The first Szarekh-type ability, forbids a unit to get selected to fight until the end. The second, stronger, Judiciar-type ability, makes an unit not eligible to fight until the end. This is important when interacting with the Counter-offensive stratagem. You can use the stratagem to push a unit with a Szarekh-type debuff to the top of the sequence, because it is still eligible. But you cannot use it when your unit is debuffed with a Judiciar-type ability.

Contention 1: And here the ambiguity begins: Does the Judiciar-type ability count as a Strike Last rule in regard to the Rare Rules section of the rule book. Actually, this is not clear according to the rules and you can argue in both ways. But this has ramifications, both on how these rules interact with each other and how they interact with Strike First rules.
Arguments: The Rare Rules section speaks of rule of a type “cannot be selected to fight”, which is not the same as “not eligible to fight”. So the first instinct is, that the Judiciar rule is not a Fight Last rule. On the other hand, lots of rules like the Szarekh one actually speak of “cannot fight”, which is also not the same as “cannot be selected to fight” as in the Rare rules section. So there is already some ambiguity which rules are meant in the RR section. If you argue that one flavour is a Strike Last rule in regard to the Rare Rules and one other is not, the question arises: which one und how do you decide? There is no clear answer in the rules. And you would open up a lot of unresolved issues when you say, for example, “Tempomortis is not a Strike Last rule”, because some of the interactions that the Rare Rules section resolves, would be open for debate again. For example: if two units have this debuff, they would become eligible at the same time when the last other unit has fought. But how do you resolve which unit fights first when you cannot apply the Rare Rules section? The tempormortis rule says nothing about this. And when one is nonetheless about to fight, it suddenly becomes ineligible again, because there is another unit eligible to fight.
Until there is a FAQ, there is no way to know how the rule is meant to be played.But ruling that it counts as Strikes Last would close a big can of worms in an already very messy environment. But before we have the official ruling, there is no answer that is unassailable. This point is very much open for debate and this is something that turney organizers should define before every event.

Observation 3: There is a quirk in the wording of some newer Strike Last rule: It only mandates you to strike after all enemy units. Once all enemies fought, these units can fight before other friendly units that are not affected by a Strike Last rule. If the unit is the only one that has charged, it even has to fight before all the others. Older rules mandate the unit after all units - friend or foe. For the further discussion this is of little consequence, but it is important to keep in mind on the battlefield.

Follow up question: What happens if a unit has Strike First and Strike Last, but the latter ceases to apply because there are no eligible enemy units to fight. Does the Strike Last rule, even if it has no current effect, still cancels the First Strike? In practice, this is usually not an issue, since there are no enemies left, but sometimes the sequencing is important even if all fighting units belong to the same player.
Answer: Since the Rare Rules section states that the rules cancel out when the units are “under the effects” of such rules, they do not cancel out here.The Strike Last rule does not affect the unit in this situation, even if it still has it and becomes affected again when another enemy unit becomes eligible to fight.

In summary we can conclude that there are three tiers in which a unit fights: Fight First, the Normal sequence and Strike Last. And in which bracket a unit falls depends on how you answer Contention 1:

-----> Order (Judiciar-type ability = Strike Last)
Charging + Fight Last Debuff = Fight Last
First First + Fight Last Debuff = Fight Normally
Fight First & Charging + Fight Last Debuff = Fight First
Fight First + Fight Last Debuff + Counter-Offensive = Fight First or Normally or whenever, depending on when the Stratagem is used
Fight Last Judiciar-style “not eligible” + Counter-Offensive = not possible -> Fight Last
Fight Last Szarekh-style “cannot fight” + Counter-Offensive = Fight First or Normally or whenever, depending on when the Stratagem is used
Fight Last Judiciar-style “not eligible” vs. Fight Last Szarekh-style “cannot fight” =both Fight Normally

----> Order (Judiciar-type ability =/= Strike Last)
Charging + Fight Last Debuff = Fight Last/Fight ‘Lastest’
First First + Fight Last Debuff Judiciar-style “not eligible” = Fight ‘Lastest’, even after other Fight Last units
First First + Fight Last Debuff Szarekh-style “cannot fight” = Fight Normally
Fight First & Charging + Fight Last Debuff Judiciar-style “not eligible” = Fight ‘Lastest’, even after other Fight Last units
Fight First & Charging + Fight Last Debuff Szarekh-style “cannot fight”= Fight First
Fight First + Fight Last Debuff Szarekh-style “cannot fight” + Counter-Offensive = Fight First or Normally or whenever, depending on when the Stratagem is used
Fight First + Fight Last Debuff Judiciar-style “not eligible”+ Counter-Offensive = not possible
Fight Last Judiciar-style “not eligible” + Counter-Offensive = not possible -> Fight ‘Lastest’
Fight Last Szarekh-style “cannot fight” + Counter-Offensive = Fight First or Normally or whenever, depending on when the Stratagem is used
Fight Last Judiciar-style “not eligible” vs. Fight Last Szarekh-style “cannot fight” = Szarekh-debuffed Fight Last, Judiciar-debuffed Fight ‘Lastest’, hence even later


UNIT GETS STRIKE FIRST IN MIDDLE OF FIGHT PHASE

With the exception of the Judiciar-ability the sequencing is clear. You simply resolve one tier after the other. But what happens when a unit changes the priority in the middle of the Fight phase. For example Ynnari units get Strength from Death, or a unit with Strikes First gets consolidated into and becomes eligible to fight. To compound this, the opponent can use the Counter-offensive stratagems to insert one of his own units into the sequence.
Normally the tiers are : Strikes First -> Normal -> Strike Last (-> Judiciar-Srike Last - we omit this for simplicity sake)
But in these situations the sequence can look: Strikes First -> Normal -> Strikes First again -> Normal again -> Strike Last

The question is, in which order units fight in the “Strikes First again” and “Normal again” steps. This is a situation the rules simply did not anticipate and there are three interpretations that are all valid, depending on which you give precedence: alternating or “beginning with player X”. Does the “beginning with player whose turn it is/is not” applies to both “Normal” and “Normal again”, or just the first one? And if you inject a new Fight First tier, does the alternating sequence of the normal units continues for first-strikers? Depending on the answers, the outcomes are very different. There are three variant how you can interpret the rules and all are equally viable. They do not break a rule, simply give one part of the rule precedence.

I) Units alternate within a tier, even if it is interrupted. If the sequence goes back to a tier, it tries to pick up, where it was left before the interruption. The only exceptions are the FIRST TIME a new tier starts and the end of a tier when only one player has units left. This means, when the sequence reverts back to Strike First mid-phase, when some units become eligible due to consolidation or Ynnari begin to draw strength from death, the player whose turn it is, does not go first because he already has done that at the start of the phase and the alternating pattern has already begun.
To makes this clearer, assume it is player A’s turn. In the middle of the Fight phase, some of the units get Strike First. The order under interpretation I is as follows, depending when and how many units get Strikes First.

Strike first -> ABB |Normal -> B |Strike first again -> ABB |Normal again-> AB
Strike first -> ABB |Normal -> BA |Strike first again -> ABB |Normal again-> BA
Strike first -> ABA |Normal -> B |Strike first again -> BAB |Normal again-> AB
Strike first -> ABA |Normal -> BA |Strike first again -> BAB |Normal again-> BA

II) Units alternate, but there is no distinction between tiers. The only exceptions are, again, the FIRST TIME a new tier starts and the end of a tier when only one player has units left.
So if the sequence goes from the Normal tier back to Strike First, the alternating pattern from the Normal tier continues. If a unit from player A fought before some units gained the Strike First rule, player B is the first to select a unit from the first-strikers.

Again the examples. As you can see, the outcome is different.

Strike first -> ABB |Normal -> B |Strike first again -> ABB |Normal again-> AB
Strike first -> ABB |Normal -> BA |Strike first again -> BAB |Normal again-> AB
Strike first -> ABA |Normal -> B |Strike first again -> ABB |Normal again-> AB
Strike first -> ABA |Normal -> BA |Strike first again -> BAB |Normal again-> AB

III) Every time a new tier starts, the alternating begins anew, with the specified player, i.e. player whose turn it is in tier First and Last. There is still an alternating pattern inside a tier, but every time a jump occurs, the pattern resets. So if units with Strike First attack after units with Normal speed, it is always the player whose turn it is, that selects the first unit. And when the sequence goes back to Normal units, it is the player whose turn it is not.

Strike first -> ABB |Normal -> B |Strike first again -> ABB |Normal again-> BA
Strike first -> ABB |Normal -> BA |Strike first again -> ABB |Normal again-> BA
Strike first -> ABA |Normal -> B |Strike first again -> ABB |Normal again-> BA
Strike first -> ABA |Normal -> BA |Strike first again -> ABB |Normal again-> BA

All three interpretations are feasible. None of the options is more RAW than the other. The rules are simply not defined for this case. I don’t think there is any RAI interpretation either, because the designers clearly haven’t thought about this kind of situation.


STRIKE FIRST CANCELLING

The next question is what happens when a unit has a Strike First rule from two different sources. For example an Ynnari Banshee unit that draws power from death and has a (non-Ynnari) Jain Zar nearby. Does a Strike Last debuff cancel both powers, or only one and the units still Strikes First.
Again, there is no RAW or RAI answer. Instances where two similar rules are superimposed are resolved on a case by case basis. It is very much possible for a unit to have two similar worded rules simultaneously, for example Feel No Pain-style rules. Usually there is a text blurb in the special rule itself that specifies how these cases are handled. The Feel No Pain rules in the Craftworld book, for example, state, that you can only use one of them and. But this implies that it is not the case in general. Another example are to-hit modifiers, where having a rule twice does not bring an advantage, but becomes relevant once there is a modifier in the other direction. And in the realm of fight priority we have already established that: Strike First + Charge +Strike Last = Charge (except when it is a Judiciar-style debuff).
But Charge is not the same as Always Strike First, so in the end all these examples are anecdotal. It is not enough to conclude that this is the case here. So again, turney organizers have to make a judgement, or someone else has a clever idea.


STRENGTH FROM DEATH

When Ynnari draw strength from death and have charged and or have a Strike First rule, they get an +1 hit modifier. So what happens with this under the different scenarios.

First, we note that the hit modifier is checked when “resolving an attack”. At this point, all the canceling and determining if the unit strikes first or not is already done.

Second, the hit modifier depends on two conditions: drawing strength from death and having First Strike or having charged. Note, that the first condition is explicitly not “being granted First Strike from Strength from Death”, even if this may have been the intention.

Third, when Strike Last and Strength From Death cancel each other out, it is not the whole Strength from Death rule that is being canceled, only the Strike First bit, because Strength from Death has also other ramifications, for example for stratagems. So likewise, the +1 hit rule part stays intact even if the Strike First element is cancelled.

We now have some different scenarios depending how the rule questions above are answered.

I) Rule Judgement: Judiciar-rule is not counted as Strike Last
AND unit charged or has additional Strike First rule:

The unit strikes ‘lastest’ no matter if it has charged or another Strike First rule. But since the Judiciar-rule does not cancel any of the other rules, the +1 to hit modifier is applied.

II) Rule Judgement: Judiciar-rule that is counted as Strike Last OR Szarekh-style rule
AND Rule Judgment: single Strike Last cancels any number of Strike First
AND additional Strike First rule:

The unit strikes Normally and does not get the +1 hit modifier. Even though the +1 hit section of the Strength from Death rule stays intact, the unit additional Strike First rule is cancelled. And since the unit “fights as if neither rule is affecting it”, so the Strike First rule does not count during the whole fight sequence, even for the purpose of being a condition for the +1. Otherwise there would have to be the addition “for the purpose of selecting the unit that fights next” or something similar.

III) Rule Judgement: Judiciar-rule that is counted as Strike Last OR Szarekh-style rule
AND Rule Judgment: single Strike Last cancels any number of Strike First
AND unit has charged:

The unit strikes Last, but does get the +1 hit modifier. The hit modifier part of the Strength from Death rule stays intact. And Charge and Strike Last do not cancel each other. Strike Last simply supersedes the charge. So the unit strikes after all other, but it still has charged and the condition of Strength from Death is met, the +1 applies.

IV) Rule Judgement: Judiciar-rule that is counted as Strike Last OR Szarekh-style rule
AND Rule Judgment: single Strike Last cancels a single Strike First
AND unit has charged:

The unit strikes first and gets the +1 hit modifier. The Strike First section of the strength from Death rule is cancelled, but the unit strikes still first because of the charge. At the same time, the charge meets the condition of the +1 to hit.

V) Rule Judgement: Judiciar-rule that is counted as Strike Last OR Szarekh-style rule
AND Rule Judgment: single Strike Last cancels a single Strike First
AND additional Strike First rule:

And here it becomes even messier. It depends which rule is cancelled. If the Strength from Death rule is cancelled, the unit strikes first and gets the +1 hit modifier, as in case IV. If the additional rule is cancelled, the unit strikes first, because the Strength from Death but does not get the +1 to hit, because the condition of another Strike First rule is not met.
Of course, there is no mechanism to decide which rule gets cancelled, so there needs to be a roll-off. But it would be even better, to avoid this situation altogether.


CONCLUSION

As you can see, this got fairly complex. The rule judgments necessary to make the rules work are all fairly arbitrary, so I would advocate in choosing the ones that improve the flow of the game the most. This would be

- Counting the Judicar ability as Strike Last solves a lot of the weird interactions.
- The same is true for making a single Strike Last cancel all instances of Strike First at the same time. There is no need for a roll off in any circumstances.
- And if the sequence in the Fight phase becomes wild, it is preferable to always start with the specified player when a new sequencing tier begins. This solution is simply the easiest to apply on the battlefield. You don’t have to remember any previous alternating orders.
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot





Treating the Judiciar as always strikes last is ignoring the rules entirely because that is not what his ability is.

The Judiciar removes eligibility to fight at all until all other eligible units have fought, so it doesn't matter how many times or when a unit gains strike first because they flat out aren't eligible to fight until the end, they never actually lose strike first they just can't use it.

DT:80S++G++MB++I+Pw40k07+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in de
Snotty Snotling




Hamburg

Yes, but if you treat it as something completely different, then you run into the issues described above: two justiciar-debuffed units create an unresolvable situation at the end of the phase. And if you get picky and say the rule is different enough from a generic Strikes Last rule, where to draw the line? Is Szarekh's rule different enough because it allows units to strike before their own non-debuffed unit? Or vexator mask, because it states "cannot fight" instead of "cannot be selected to fight"? The Rare Rules section is vague because it refers to similar abilities instead of giving a concrete list, which rules are meant like it was done with Blast.

So you are right, that it is completely feasible to judge it the other way around. But it is not true, that this is the only sound conclusion.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/04 13:08:22


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Aftersong wrote:
Treating the Judiciar as always strikes last is ignoring the rules entirely because that is not what his ability is.

The Judiciar removes eligibility to fight at all until all other eligible units have fought, so it doesn't matter how many times or when a unit gains strike first because they flat out aren't eligible to fight until the end, they never actually lose strike first they just can't use it.

Do you really think "not eligible to fight until all other units have fought" and "cannot be selected to fight until all other units have fought" are different things?

That's ridiculous. Its two ways of saying the same thing.

40K Armies: Ultramarines, Tau, Ynnari, Orks, and Thousand Sons. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Vovin wrote:
Yes, but if you treat it as something completely different, then you run into the issues described above: two justiciar-debuffed units create an unresolvable situation at the end of the phase. And if you get picky and say the rule is different enough from a generic Strikes Last rule, where to draw the line? Is Szarekh's rule different enough because it allows units to strike before their own non-debuffed unit? Or vexator mask, because it states "cannot fight" instead of "cannot be selected to fight"? The Rare Rules section is vague because it refers to similar abilities instead of giving a concrete list, which rules are meant like it was done with Blast.

So you are right, that it is completely feasible to judge it the other way around. But it is not true, that this is the only sound conclusion.



It doesnt create an unresolvable effect there are two ways to resolve two judicared units but the rules are slightly grey

1 ) neither justicared units is eligible to fight until the other fights ergo both are ineligible to fight so cannot be selected


2) when that point is reached that all other eligible units are able to fight have fought once the judicars are the last units they are simultaneously able to fight and you resolve the rules permitting them to do so according to the rules governing simultaneous effects.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/04 14:09:13


 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot





footfoe wrote:
 Aftersong wrote:
Treating the Judiciar as always strikes last is ignoring the rules entirely because that is not what his ability is.

The Judiciar removes eligibility to fight at all until all other eligible units have fought, so it doesn't matter how many times or when a unit gains strike first because they flat out aren't eligible to fight until the end, they never actually lose strike first they just can't use it.

Do you really think "not eligible to fight until all other units have fought" and "cannot be selected to fight until all other units have fought" are different things?

That's ridiculous. Its two ways of saying the same thing.


They are different, the judiciar precludes the use of the counter offensive strategem whereas the "cannot be selected to fight" wording is overridden by the counter offensive strategem.

Unfortunately in warhammer a slight wording difference can be make or break in how rules interact, essentially the same is not the same.

DT:80S++G++MB++I+Pw40k07+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in de
Snotty Snotling




Hamburg

@U02dah4:
Yeah, 1) is feasible, but I cannot believe that the rules are intended to lead to this. The only objection that I have, is that they become eligible once the last other unit has fought. And when they are both eligible they are not eligible anymore. They are the Schrödinger's cats of 40k.

2) I don't see because they do not active simultaniously. There is still the alternating sequence you have to adhere to.

@Aftersong:
It is clear that the rules are not mechanically the same. This is acknowledged in the first post. But this doesn't excludes the rule from being affected from the Rare Rules section ruling. It is sufficient to be a "similar" rule. And how similar is enough is anyones guess. But lots of other Strike Last rules have slightly other wording and are still counted as Strike Last. For example the Szarekh rule allows the unit to strike before other friendlies, the Vexator Mask does not. So by this logic the Szarekh rule shouldn't be subject to the Rare Rules section.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Its not that they activate simultaneously its that the rule that says they can now activate because no other units are eligible to activate activates simultaneously

So the simultaneous rules section tells you which to activate first

You resolve that and you now have one eligible to activate and one now ineligible till the first resolves

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/05 01:44:01


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

In earlier issues of 8th edition there was a whole lot of incosistensies about this.

Then at one big 8th FAQ (or it could have been 9th, but I think it was a big 8th overhaul) they changed the wording of all incosistensies: One main rulebook FAQ said that no matter what, the "I activate now" stratagem could trumph any of them.

I remember, because pharoxysemn nid psykick power went from useless, to usable, to useless.

However, with 9th edition codixes they have changed the wording. The way the Justicar, SW Armour of Russ, SM Whirldwind rocket stratagem and SW Psykick power all use the same wording: That the unit can not be selected to fight until all other units have been choses. This prevents people from using the "I activate now" stratagem. It is quite clear in it's design. And the wording is very consequent and much tighter then anything we had in 8th. It actualy seems like a wording template (if I am to borrow a term from Magic the Gathering.) I will suspect further codexes will use the same wording, but I do not know.

I think what makes a whole lot more sence. Currently there are very many rules that essentially are crap because they do not work in pracis. "This unit fights first in close combat." is the most common useless rule. SW stil have that wording, and that is a 9th codex so I expect it will not go away. (Mind you SW can activate it in an aura. That makes it marginally better as SW can pile on a lot of units in the same fight.)




I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in de
Snotty Snotling




Hamburg

@ Niiai:
This is not completely true. GW tries tto improve upon the situation in 8th: make it clear if counter-offensive works, allow the unit to activate before other friendlies and
But the problem is, that GW is not consistent in their wording.
The Whirlwind stratagem, Szarekh's and the Judiciar's ability all have different wordings. And the judiciar ability is clearly different, because it is the only one that makes the unit ineligible. So they try to fix some issue from the last edition, but there is clearly no wording template in use.

   
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Been Around the Block




I am dumb and misread the original post.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/07 18:51:14


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Vovin wrote:
@ Niiai:
This is not completely true. GW tries tto improve upon the situation in 8th: make it clear if counter-offensive works, allow the unit to activate before other friendlies and
But the problem is, that GW is not consistent in their wording.
The Whirlwind stratagem, Szarekh's and the Judiciar's ability all have different wordings. And the judiciar ability is clearly different, because it is the only one that makes the unit ineligible. So they try to fix some issue from the last edition, but there is clearly no wording template in use.



I think you are mistaken. I can not speak for Szarekh. But all four SM and SW I mentioned have the same wording template. See attached pictures.

Update: I do not know if BS has the correct wording. But the necron also use the precise wording.


[Thumb - Screenshot_20201214_235237.jpg]

[Thumb - Screenshot_20201214_235217.jpg]

[Thumb - Screenshot_20201214_235157.jpg]

[Thumb - Screenshot_20201214_235128.jpg]

[Thumb - Screenshot_20201214_235801.jpg]

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 23:02:48


I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






U02dah4 wrote:
Vovin wrote:
Yes, but if you treat it as something completely different, then you run into the issues described above: two justiciar-debuffed units create an unresolvable situation at the end of the phase. And if you get picky and say the rule is different enough from a generic Strikes Last rule, where to draw the line? Is Szarekh's rule different enough because it allows units to strike before their own non-debuffed unit? Or vexator mask, because it states "cannot fight" instead of "cannot be selected to fight"? The Rare Rules section is vague because it refers to similar abilities instead of giving a concrete list, which rules are meant like it was done with Blast.

So you are right, that it is completely feasible to judge it the other way around. But it is not true, that this is the only sound conclusion.



It doesnt create an unresolvable effect there are two ways to resolve two judicared units but the rules are slightly grey

1 ) neither justicared units is eligible to fight until the other fights ergo both are ineligible to fight so cannot be selected


2) when that point is reached that all other eligible units are able to fight have fought once the judicars are the last units they are simultaneously able to fight and you resolve the rules permitting them to do so according to the rules governing simultaneous effects.


Except the Tempermortis does not care about the effected unit's order of fighting, both are eligible to fight after all units from the Judiciar's army have fought.

In the example of 2 Judiciars selecting 2 different units, then those units cannot fight(as they are not elligible) until after the 2 Judiciars have fought; but as soon as the 2 Judiciars have fought, so long as there are no other eligible units to fight in the Judiciar's army, then they are both eligible to fight(and in a turn that the Judiciars charged, or the effected unit's turn, where the effected units are also involved with friendly units; the effected units could still fight before any of their friendly eligible units).

The Tempermortis and The like are fairly powerful, but the wording is rather specific and perfectly functional. The Armor of Russ forces the chosen unit to be intelligible until after any/all of your units fight, no matter the detachment, Hurricane or whatever the other SW "not-eligible until" abilities is eligible after the SW units have fought(so can fight before guardsmen or whatever in your army from another detachment).

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

The last one, suppression fire, is a SM general stratagem for whirlwind. (And the only good use of it from whirlwind.)

So far, from 2 codexes and 3 supplements later 3 out of five have adapted this wonderful wording. (Five out of five really since the supplements have the whirlwind and justicar access.)

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Except the Tempermortis does not care about the effected unit's order of fighting, both are eligible to fight after all units from the Judiciar's army have fought.

In the example of 2 Judiciars selecting 2 different units, then those units cannot fight(as they are not elligible) until after the 2 Judiciars have fought; but as soon as the 2 Judiciars have fought, so long as there are no other eligible units to fight in the Judiciar's army, then they are both eligible to fight(and in a turn that the Judiciars charged, or the effected unit's turn, where the effected units are also involved with friendly units; the effected units could still fight before any of their friendly eligible units).

The Tempermortis and The like are fairly powerful, but the wording is rather specific and perfectly functional. The Armor of Russ forces the chosen unit to be intelligible until after any/all of your units fight, no matter the detachment, Hurricane or whatever the other SW "not-eligible until" abilities is eligible after the SW units have fought(so can fight before guardsmen or whatever in your army from another detachment).
I think you are missing something here.

Judiciar A charges Judiciar B. They both select each other as the target of their Tempermortis. A cannot fight until all units in B's army have fought, including B. But B cannot fight until all units in A's army have fought, including A. Neither unit can fight until after the other unit fights!

But if you count Tempormortis as a Fights Last ability there is a way out of this Temporal paradox.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 alextroy wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Except the Tempermortis does not care about the effected unit's order of fighting, both are eligible to fight after all units from the Judiciar's army have fought.

In the example of 2 Judiciars selecting 2 different units, then those units cannot fight(as they are not elligible) until after the 2 Judiciars have fought; but as soon as the 2 Judiciars have fought, so long as there are no other eligible units to fight in the Judiciar's army, then they are both eligible to fight(and in a turn that the Judiciars charged, or the effected unit's turn, where the effected units are also involved with friendly units; the effected units could still fight before any of their friendly eligible units).

The Tempermortis and The like are fairly powerful, but the wording is rather specific and perfectly functional. The Armor of Russ forces the chosen unit to be intelligible until after any/all of your units fight, no matter the detachment, Hurricane or whatever the other SW "not-eligible until" abilities is eligible after the SW units have fought(so can fight before guardsmen or whatever in your army from another detachment).
I think you are missing something here.

Judiciar A charges Judiciar B. They both select each other as the target of their Tempermortis. A cannot fight until all units in B's army have fought, including B. But B cannot fight until all units in A's army have fought, including A. Neither unit can fight until after the other unit fights!

But if you count Tempormortis as a Fights Last ability there is a way out of this Temporal paradox.

Not necessarily - Judicar A and B are ineligible to fight until all eligible units have fought. This means sequencing comes into play, as both abilities resolve at once. So since it's Judicar A's turn, they chose which one becomes eligible first, and thus who can fight first out of the two. A doesn't need B to have fought to activate, just for it to remain ineligible.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Two justicar fight each other. They both pick the other one as a target. None are eligebol to fight so they both pass the requirement and can now fight. So the justicar who charged proceeds to fight.
[Thumb - justicar.jpg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/16 10:23:23


 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Both above have it.

Target is not eligible until after all your eligible units have fought, then target is eligible.

This is somehow some of the best wording GW has done in awhile, no stupid interactions possible.

The Edge of Silence version was bad, mostly useless, and would cause many of the issues you guys are trying for; but the final codex version is functional(I think the Edge of Silence and Warcomm preview are still kicking around in most peoples heads).

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in de
Snotty Snotling




Hamburg

The newest FAQ has clarified some points.

'Not eligible to fight...' is a Strike Last rule.
2 Strike First + 1 Strike Last = Strike Normal.

So GW has followed the same reasoning as this (not so) humble person:
- Counting the Judicar ability as Strike Last solves a lot of the weird interactions.
- The same is true for making a single Strike Last cancel all instances of Strike First at the same time. There is no need for a roll off in any circumstances.


   
 
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