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Made in ru
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Russia

Recently I have been working on 3d. And mostly these are mouse clicks and move. Sitting uncomfortable - posture asymmetry. The hand gets tired of clicking and the mouse breaks. I am not comfortable all the time reaching for the mouse instead of lounging in a chair with a keyboard in my hands.

Do you know any mouse alternatives?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 14:17:48


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Southampton, UK

If you mean you're working on 3d modelling, then a graphics tablet and stylus might suit. it'd be a lot more like drawing or sculpting than a mouse. A lot of 3d artists use them.
   
Made in ru
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Russia

I have a Genius tablet that has been on the shelf for years. Will try.

Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





For 3D CAD, the obvious alternative to a mouse is a space mouse. I never particularly liked them, but some of the other guys at work really enjoyed them. Other than that, track balls I guess, don't know anyone who uses one though.

But regarding using the mouse, maybe work on your ergonomics a bit? Most people have shocking ergo when working on computers. I've found having my seat and desk setup such that my forearm is close to horizontal reduces strain (opposed to either craning the forearm up or having it droop downwards), also if doing primarily mouse work, shuffle the keyboard over so that you're driving the keyboard with your left hand and remain in a more symmetric seating position. If you swap to a writing task, shuffle the keyboard back over so you can have both hands on it while again being symmetrical. I find a chair with movable armrests is good, as I can either rest my elbows or move them out of the way throughout the day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 15:51:05


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Would a vertical mouse be a good solution to your problems, something like this maybe?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 19:59:54


 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







I think the harsh truth is that you can't do CAD sitting like you're watching TV.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Your mouse shouldn't be breaking though, that suggests that you're either using really really cheap mice and/or that you're using it in an incorrect way.


If you want to curl into a chair then a drawing tablet is likely the only solution since all the others I can think of would be things like trackballs and other mice - basically things that require you to sit at a desk setup and work with a more upright posture.

   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Was wondering that one too.

But yeah, this sounds like an ergonomic thing better solved by a decent chair & desk (or just bad habits) and either crap mice or just plain abuse. I've had cheap cords go, but no physical problems with a mouse since they went from balls to lasers.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ru
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Russia

The whole way of sitting is not optimal
Terrible picture quality, but it's easier for me to show.
Here is a typical pose working at the computer.

tension in the neck and generally in the spine
this is how they offer to "solve" pc place:

the neck needs to be tilted even more
To relax your back, you need a car chair and a screen higher than usual:

But as you can see, there are difficulties with the placement of the keyboard and mouse
Meanwhile the console controller can be used from any position:

Therefore, new input devices are needed. Something that does not force a person to sit uncomfortably while maintaining functionality

Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
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Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





So are you doing 3D CAD, or 3D graphics?

All of those ergo options look terrible to me, lol.

Modern car seats aren't super ergonomic anyway, they might be comfortable for an hour or two but if you're using them for many hours a day every week day like you use an office chair, you'll likely start getting lower back and neck pains there too.

With any option, you should be getting up and walking around every now and then.

I think your first goal should be sitting upright, not hunched over the desk, depending on the size of the screen your eye level should be nearer the top of the screen so your neck angle is more natural (though this starts to break down if you're using 32" or larger screens as they're tall enough that it's not practical to have your eye level at the top of them).

Forearms should be nearly horizontal, thighs should also be close to horizontal (some ergo guides have the thighs pointing downward slightly, I prefer to start with nearer horizontal and I adjust my position throughout the day).

I found for my home computer, my desk was too tall and adding a keyboard tray helped a lot, but the desks at work are a bit lower and they don't really need one, but I end up with my chair being higher. If you do have a keyboard tray, it needs to be big enough for your mouse so you don't end up like your 2nd picture with the person still using the mouse on top of the desk. I actually made my own keyboard tray for my current desk, but my old desk came with one which was fine. I've seen other desks where the keyboard tray is too small which defeats the purpose of it.

Both at work and at home I have a chair that can be locked vertical or allowed to recline back, and throughout the day I swap between upright and reclined. When I recline my forearm goes from horizontal to slightly upwards, so maybe a slightly inclined keyboard tray would make sense? but I don't spend a lot of time there.

A lot of office chairs are junk though, my office replaced our old chairs with a bunch of fancy looking ones that LOOKED ergonomic but I could just not get it into a decent position. Ended up using a plain steel 4 legged chair out of the hallway instead of them, but luckily managed to pick up another one of the older style office chair which has been good.

The thing is, a mouse is such a good input device, lol. It's both fast and accurate, trying to do CAD with a controller would suck even if companies put some time into making them work. You can try a space mouse, but the people I know use them in addition to not instead of a regular mouse.

Trackball is the only other thing I can think might work, but I've never used one for any length of time.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Freakazoitt wrote:
The whole way of sitting is not optimal
Terrible picture quality, but it's easier for me to show.
Here is a typical pose working at the computer.

tension in the neck and generally in the spine

If that's a 'typical pose,' you're sitting incorrectly. That isn't a computer problem, mouse problem or even a chair problem. That's a learned posture problem.
This isn't surprising, as posture isn't something that's taught well or corrected regularly. At best most people get a parent yelling 'Don't slump!', rather than anatomically sound advice.


this is how they offer to "solve" pc place:

the neck needs to be tilted even more

...that is, amazingly, even worse. I've never seen anyone suggest anything remotely like that, partly for obvious reasons like not violating the structure of the desk, but also having the mouse and keyboard at different levels is poor posture.

To relax your back, you need a car chair and a screen higher than usual:

But as you can see, there are difficulties with the placement of the keyboard and mouse

Impractical and obviously bad for the forearms and wrists, as they're dealing with impact pressure and have no support.

Meanwhile the console controller can be used from any position:

That is also terrible posture, just as bad or worse than everything else so far.

Therefore, new input devices are needed. Something that does not force a person to sit uncomfortably while maintaining functionality

Nope. The input devices aren't 'forcing' bad posture here. The console controller picture pokes a big hole in your 'therefor.' Plus they're rubbish for precision work.

One thing a lot of folks could benefit from is an adjustable desk that can be switched from a sitting to standing desk. Or just walking away for a while on a regular basis.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/20 19:25:43


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

I've been a big fan of trackballs since I was a student without a desk - finer control than a regular mouse but you're moving the ball with your thumb so you don't need to move your hand anywhere, don't need a mouse mat / desk.

They tend to be too slow to move to play games with, but will be fine for CAD.



As already said, if you're spending hours in front of a PC, get a decent office chair and mount the monitor above your chin so you're looking slightly up.
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




Before to decide to buy something, the first and the better thing to do is find out if your posture is correct, because otherwise you will never be able to solve your problems.
For example this is the right posture to sit at your computer desk:

Instead these are the right postures for your arm and your hand, when you work with a mouse:



The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Herzlos wrote:
They tend to be too slow to move to play games with, but will be fine for CAD.


Lack of speed is the exact reason I never liked the space mouse. Not sure how it compares to a track ball because I've never tried CADing with one, but when I CAD I'm generally whipping things around heaps.

As already said, if you're spending hours in front of a PC, get a decent office chair and mount the monitor above your chin so you're looking slightly up.
I don't think looking up at your monitor is great unless you're already somewhat reclined.

Maybe a posturologist will correct me, but my idea of good posture is chest out as if you're showing off your boobs, back of the neck back and shoulders outwards (I think the mistake some people make is they try and push their shoulders back too far, when what you want is just to open them up as if you're doing the opposite of a gorilla pose).

When I do that, it's most comfortable to then have the top of the screen near my eye level so I'm ever so slightly looking downwards to see the middle of the screen.
   
Made in ru
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Russia

You are right, I have the wrong posture at the computer. I put on glasses to see the screen well without tilting trying to fix pose. But then it's still a bad posture just because I forget to stay straight.
To drastically solve the sitting pose - not to sit at all. Work on the computer while standing. But then it is bad for the legs!
It turns out that any option is harmful. You can minimize harm if you work on the computer for a short time. But how, if now if this is my only source of income, and even more, to improve my skills, I need to sit at the PC even more?
I will try to sit not on an office chair, but on a wooden stool.
I didn't have a gaming chair, but I think it's a scam. Judging looking from the photos, all players are sitting like in my picture 1 and not using the super-duper back rests.
As for the mouse - they have a rather fragile button mechanism. No clicks, double clicks, Reset clicks. Happens after using it actively.
The form is not very convenient. Maybe too light even with a load.
I also noticed such a thing in laptops - manufacturers make them thinner and thinner. But what's the point if the length and height of the laptop is still large? You still carry it around like an old artist's easel. And for low height, they make very small legs, which obstructs the air for cooling. But the manufacturer only get benefits - the laptop will overheat and burn out and the user will buy a new laptop ...




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/26 04:16:14


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




I worked eight hours at day sitting at my desk on an ordinary office chair, doing 3D CAD on my laptop and I did never have your issues. It isn't a matter of chair, desk, computer or mouse, it is just a matter of posture and because now you have learned the right posture, you must also teach to your body to keep that posture for all the time. It isn't a think you will learn in one day (above all if you are used to keep a wrong posture), but with the time and correcting it every time you will notice you are sitting in the wrong way, you will be able to solve that issue.

The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Your mouse should not be failing as often as you say, get a quality Logitech mouse or such and they should last you a long time with lots of clicks. You're not playing professional starcraft where you never ever stop clicking, you're doing design work. Yes there's lots of clicks but its not an obscene number of clicks beyond expected use of a mouse.


The other aspect is if you are being very ham-fisted. That is if you're really mashing your fingers down hard on the buttons. Clicks only need to be light and if you are really hitting the mouse hard that could be well causing damage even on good upper end market mice.



As for posture if you're slouching I'd say there are several areas to improve

1) A proper desk, keyboard and chair position setup. As noted above you need to setup your keyboard to be lower than the screen, your screen to be raised and your chair to be low etc... Set yourself up with the right tools to achieve the posture.

2) Exercise. Posture is as much a form of your setup as it is a form of your body's overall health. If you're out of condition slouching and such become a lot lot easier. Meanwhile if you work on exercises and physical fitness then, with the proper exercise and proper posture and form when doing that exercise, you will find it much easier to achieve and maintain proper posture when sitting.


I know that whenever I've hit a low point and not done exercise and such I wind up slouching far more and getting a lot more neck pain as a result. Meanwhile if I put effort into even light and moderate regular (daily) exercise that neck pain and slouching go away without even thinking about it.

   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




UK

Graphics tablet is essential for 3d work, I couldn't work without one. Laptop stand also essential to raise the height a bit, I 3d printed mine to make it portable and lightweight.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/11 13:14:03


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Trackballs.
The smaller trackballs are more conserving of effort in your thumb, but the larger trackballs give you a larger angle control over the precise pointing of the pointer.

I usually find for mixed use a m570 style (small thumb ball, offset) works well, but have also used in past things like the logictec trackman (a larger and therefore slightly more precise ball with decent ergonomics. Advantage to that one is that its utterly ambidextrous).

There are also incredibly tiny "airmouse" mice, which is a less than 2cm sized ball that you hold in the air like you are holding a tiny phaser. I have found those difficult to control as precisely -- but some of that may have been I never really tried to learn them. They would be a very low impact design, if you could but get good with one.

The larger trackballs (kensington style) are inches wide (about a racquetball size, almost) and they cost more -- but enable a more precise control still. However, by that point, you can find yourself wheeling a huge ball a large distance to move the pointed pointer just a hair.

There are probably hardware setting that I am too lazy to worry about tweaking to make the issue of scale less relevant for common use, but then again, some physical aspects of this do boil down to your trying to finely control a tiny roller.

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