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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Harlequins are missing some basic units that are as old as 40k, like mimes, and the great harlequin (a strategem is not good enough).

So here they are


Great Harlequin (equivalent of a harlequin phoenix lord)

M9" WS2+ BS2+ S4 T4 W6 A6 Ld10 Sv6+

3++

Flip belt, rising crescendo

Avatar of Cegorach - For every 1 rolled by a friendly Masque unit within 6" of the Great harlequin, roll 2 additional attacks. subsequent 1s are not re-rolled.

The Laughing God Himself - the pivotal role of a great harlequin is that of their god, Cegorach himself. On the battlefield they act out the infinite jest with unnatural power, causing confusion in the enemy and imbuing their own followers with awesome power. This ability provides the following benefits:

[*]If an enemy unit rolls a natural 1 to attack this unit, in shooting or melee, resolve it against the attacking unit instead.
[*]Friendly Characters may take a pivotal role from any list, not just the one designated for them.
[*]Friendly Masque units within 12" of the Great Harlequin can re-roll failed charge rolls and don't take morale tests




Master Mime

M8" WS2+ BS2+ S3 T3 W5 A4 Ld9 Sv6+

4++

Flip Belt, Rising Crescendo

Shuriken pistol
Harlequin's Caress Melee S+2 AP-2 D1

Flip belt, rising crescendo

Path of shadows: deploy 9" away from enemy units outside deployment zone

Soul Mirror: Enemy units attacking a master mime in melee are at -1 to hit and can only score a maximum of 4 hits, regardless of the number of attacks made.

Death's Reflection: A successful roll to hit causes a mortal wound on Infantry units


Mimes (5-12)

M8" WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A2 Ld9 Sv6+

4++

Flip Belt, Rising Crescendo

Shuriken pistol
Harlequin's Blade Melee S User AP0 D1

Path of shadows: deploy 9" away from enemy units outside deployment zone

Reflection of Death: Enemy units attacking mimes in melee are at -1 to hit and can only score a maximum number of hits equal to the models currently in the unit

Deaths' Shadow: A 6 to hit in melee causes a mortal wound on Infantry units


Stage Automata (5-10)

M6" WS3+ BS3+ S4 T5 W2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+

5++

Holo Launchers range 36" S2 AP-3 D1 Assault 1d3+1 (blast) If the target unit loses one or more wounds roll 2D6 against the target's leadership. If it is equal to or higher, the unit is considered BS6+ for the following round.
Pyro Burst 48" S5 AP-2 D1 Assault 1D3+1 (blast) may target units you can't see
Laser grid 24" S1D6 AP-1 D1 Assault 3. Always hits aircraft on a 3+
Mono wires Melee S User AP-3 D1 6s to wound inflict 1 additional wound

Choose 1 weapon - holo launchers, pyro burst or laser grid for each automata





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/25 02:27:06


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Hellebore wrote:

Avatar of Cegorach - For every 1 rolled by a friendly Masque unit within 6" of the Great harlequin, roll 2 additional attacks. subsequent 1s are not re-rolled.

Should that be 1s to hit? To wound? Not sure how I feel about this one. A standard reroll 1s to hit aura is one thing. Actively turning half your troupe's misses into even more offense than before is obviously a step up. It's not innately broken/OP, but I'm not sure the GH, of all the units in the game, is the guy that I feel "deserves" the superior reroll aura.


The Laughing God Himself - the pivotal role of a great harlequin is that of their god, Cegorach himself. On the battlefield they act out the infinite jest with unnatural power, causing confusion in the enemy and imbuing their own followers with awesome power. This ability provides the following benefits:

[*]If an enemy unit rolls a natural 1 to attack this unit, in shooting or melee, resolve it against the attacking unit instead.

Love abilities like this. Good fit for the GH. I do wonder if this could be made slightly simpler to resolve though. The Cursed Blade warlord trait and other similar abilities just say something like, "Unmodified invul saves of 6+ cause the attacking unit to suffer 1 mortal wound." That would probably be appropriate and fluffy here.

Mild logistical consideration here (that also exists with those other abilities): does this ability force your opponent to resolve his shooting attacks one at a time and/or model-by-model? Like, say I shoot a squad of IG heavy weapons teams armed with heavy bolters at this guy. Each of those heavy bolters has the potential to wipe out a model in his own squad, and also the potential to wipe out the GH on its own. So do I need to resolve those shots model by model to see if I kill the other two teams before they can shoot? Can I potentially kill both my unit and the GH with the same barrage of shooting?

Also, I'd be tempted to change this to only work in melee. I can totally see him wuxia feinting through the fight to get enemies to stab each other. It's harder to imagine the plasma gunner at the front of a marine squad somehow missing so badly that he shoots the guys behind him.


[*]Friendly Characters may take a pivotal role from any list, not just the one designated for them.

This makes me nervous. Turning death jesters into secondary shadowseers feels odd and doesn't really seem like a thing that should result from hanging out with the GH. And making a troupe master's fusion pistol hit 3 times instead of once is clearly more powerful than, say, letting a death jester reroll charges with Prince of Light. So I'm not sure that mixing and matching pivotal roles across units should even be a thing, and if it is a thing, I'm not sold on the GH being the missing ingredient to unlock it.


[*]Friendly Masque units within 12" of the Great Harlequin can re-roll failed charge rolls and don't take morale tests

This is sort of redundant with the Prince of Light pivotal role, but that's fine. It gives you an easy way to get the bonus distance from that role if you take it.


Path of shadows: deploy 9" away from enemy units outside deployment zone

That's infiltrate, not deepstrike, right? I'm not really a fan of turn 1 charges, but this guy wouldn't be the first to be able to pull it off.


Soul Mirror: Enemy units attacking a master mime in melee are at -1 to hit and can only score a maximum of 4 hits, regardless of the number of attacks made.

Death's Reflection: A successful roll to hit causes a mortal wound on Infantry units

Um. This guy is way more durable and killy than the GH and most characters in the game for that matter. Even if your opponent wounds all 4 times, you'll ignore half of those on average (4+ invul). And at 5 wounds, chances of him being killable in a duel are pretty slim. I feel like there are some words missing from Death's Reflection? Does the ability only trigger on to-wound rolls of 6? Does it do a mortal wound instead of or in addition to normal damage? A Frozen Stars version of this guy is going to be doing up to 5 mortal wounds each time he fights (so potentially 10 mortal wounds a turn), more if he's standing near the GH.

In other harlequin projects I've seen in the past, the master mime has just be a sneaky character, sometimes with sabotauge-related rules. What is your interpretation of this guy that makes him so much more durable and lethal than a troupe master?


Mimes (5-12)

M8" WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A2 Ld9 Sv6+

4++

Flip Belt, Rising Crescendo

Shuriken pistol
Harlequin's Blade Melee S User AP0 D1

Path of shadows: deploy 9" away from enemy units outside deployment zone

Reflection of Death: Enemy units attacking mimes in melee are at -1 to hit and can only score a maximum number of hits equal to the models currently in the unit

Deaths' Shadow: A 6 to hit in melee causes a mortal wound on Infantry units

It bugs me that Reflection of Death and Death's Shadow both sound similar to Death's Reflection. Reflection of Death bugs me in that it's really useful against some melee units and really meh against others. A unit of power fists won't mind it much at all, but a squad of wyches or flayed ones will be flummoxed. Which is especially odd given that I'd expect the slow clunky weapons to be worse at hitting the bouncy ninja elves than the super fast blender units are.

Also, I worry about their role. Weaker clowns with infiltrate made more sense in editions where you couldn't outflank big chunks of your army with CP. Using infiltrate on these guys makes me think they're going to either suicide rush the enemy on turn 1 or else dive onto objectives and be the first to die. Neither of which feels terribly fluffy for a hyper-elite clown posse.

In the past, I've seen mimes represented with sabotage rules, haywire grenades, rules that made their cover saves really effective. Maybe give them something along those lines so they can do more than just dogpile the enemy?


Stage Automata (5-10)

M6" WS3+ BS3+ S4 T5 W2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+

5++

Holo Launchers range 36" S2 AP-3 D1 Assault 1d3+1 (blast) If the target unit loses one or more wounds roll 2D6 against the target's leadership. If it is equal to or higher, the unit is considered BS6+ for the following round.
Pyro Burst 48" S5 AP-2 D1 Assault 1D3+1 (blast) may target units you can't see
Laser grid 24" S1D6 AP-1 D1 Assault 3. Always hits aircraft on a 3+
Mono wires Melee S User AP-3 D1 6s to wound inflict 1 additional wound

Choose 1 weapon - holo launchers, pyro burst or laser grid for each automata

Like the mental image. Question if they really deserve an invul.

The random number of shots and low damage on the holo launchers make me think they would be annoying to use in the same way that drukhari phantasm launchers are annoying to use. Currently, you require a number of shots roll, a to-wound roll with a strength so low you'll frequently do no damage, and a leadership test before the special rule you take the weapon for kicks in. Also, the nature of the weapon strongly encourages you to splitfire each one at a different enemy unit making it take even longer to resolve. Also, I'm unclear on how long the debuff lasts. Until the start of the harlequin player's next turn?

I'd probably make the holo launchers a 1 per 5 upgrade, and do something like this:
Holo Launchers - Range: 36", S*, AP0, Damage 0, Assault 1, Targets hit by this weapon may not target units more than 15" away with ranged weapons until the start of the harlequin player's next turn.

Gets rid of some of the wonkiness of changing the enemy's stats and how that would interact with various to-hit penalties the harlies have. Much quicker to resolve. The low number of shots and to-hit roll are a natural limiter on how many of these you can/will want to spam. Basically lets you protect your right flank from shooting on the left side of the table and vice versa.

Pyro burst looks fine. The wires look fine, although I'm not sure why you're departing from the other monofilament rules in the game.

Laser Grid sounds cool, but I'm not sure what you're going for. The random strength (average 3.5) is low enough to make this weapon seem pretty bad against most aircraft, and yet the special rule implies you're supposed to shoot it at aircraft. The random strength also potentially forces me to resolve this weapon's shooting in a bunch of different dice pools. If I point it at guardsmen, for instance, I could end up wounding on anything from 2+ to 6+ all as part of the same volley. (Unless otherwise stated, you roll that d6 for each gun instead of once for the whole squad.) And at the end of all that, you probably end up with math that looks very similar to if you'd just given it a flat strength of 3 or 4. Looks time consuming and annoying to use, and I'm not clear on what I'm supposed to be using it against. Maybe just change this one to a lasblaster?

I like all of these unit concepts, but I'm not sold on their execution. If you have any interest in seeing a relatively recent take on the Great Harlequin, check out A Deadly Wit (available on Audible). The GH there doesn't come across as particularly supernatural, so he may not fit what you're going for. But it's still a fun little listen.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hey Wyldhunt, first off I'd like to say that I appreciate you taking the time to provide feedback in the detail you do. Whether we agree on execution or background, you've always been thoughtful and attentive when providing feedback.


Wyldhunt wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:

Avatar of Cegorach - For every 1 rolled by a friendly Masque unit within 6" of the Great harlequin, roll 2 additional attacks. subsequent 1s are not re-rolled.

Should that be 1s to hit? To wound? Not sure how I feel about this one. A standard reroll 1s to hit aura is one thing. Actively turning half your troupe's misses into even more offense than before is obviously a step up. It's not innately broken/OP, but I'm not sure the GH, of all the units in the game, is the guy that I feel "deserves" the superior reroll aura.


The great harlequin also used to be called the High Avatar as they basically were Cegorach on the battlefield. I'm going with these guys being the Cegorach version of a solitaire/phoenix lord, manifesting avatar esque godly powers that reflect their god's domain.

In this instance I was trying to go with a 'last laugh/jokes on you' feel, where the worst roll a harlequin could make turns out to be a surprise advantage. That their enemies think they've fumbled only for it to turn into a lethal strike. In effect, rolling a 1 gives you a chance to re-roll the attack and provides another attack as well.

As he is the living avatar of Cegorarch, the aura of trickery and jesteryness that emanates from him warps reality (like the Deceiver).


Wyldhunt wrote:

The Laughing God Himself - the pivotal role of a great harlequin is that of their god, Cegorach himself. On the battlefield they act out the infinite jest with unnatural power, causing confusion in the enemy and imbuing their own followers with awesome power. This ability provides the following benefits:

[*]If an enemy unit rolls a natural 1 to attack this unit, in shooting or melee, resolve it against the attacking unit instead.
Love abilities like this. Good fit for the GH. I do wonder if this could be made slightly simpler to resolve though. The Cursed Blade warlord trait and other similar abilities just say something like, "Unmodified invul saves of 6+ cause the attacking unit to suffer 1 mortal wound." That would probably be appropriate and fluffy here.

Mild logistical consideration here (that also exists with those other abilities): does this ability force your opponent to resolve his shooting attacks one at a time and/or model-by-model? Like, say I shoot a squad of IG heavy weapons teams armed with heavy bolters at this guy. Each of those heavy bolters has the potential to wipe out a model in his own squad, and also the potential to wipe out the GH on its own. So do I need to resolve those shots model by model to see if I kill the other two teams before they can shoot? Can I potentially kill both my unit and the GH with the same barrage of shooting?

Also, I'd be tempted to change this to only work in melee. I can totally see him wuxia feinting through the fight to get enemies to stab each other. It's harder to imagine the plasma gunner at the front of a marine squad somehow missing so badly that he shoots the guys behind him.


The sequencing would be simultaneous (I don't believe the rules distinguishes between different weapons being rolled separately as happening at different times - it's just a procedural thing to help roll lots of different attacks). So you roll your attacks, put aside 1s and keep doing so until all the shooting attacks have occurred. Then you resolve damage against the target and 1s against the attacking unit.

I don't have an issue with this working on shooting because I envisage this being hallucinogenic trickery of a godlike-like reality warping level. Things like The firer having their perception distorted so the GH now looks like their mother and their squad mates look like daemons, or the The shot disappearing through a micro warp tear only to reappear going back in the opposite direction and so on.

I am very much seeing the GH as the harlequin equivalent of the Yncarne or Avatar of Khaine.

Wyldhunt wrote:

[*]Friendly Characters may take a pivotal role from any list, not just the one designated for them.
This makes me nervous. Turning death jesters into secondary shadowseers feels odd and doesn't really seem like a thing that should result from hanging out with the GH. And making a troupe master's fusion pistol hit 3 times instead of once is clearly more powerful than, say, letting a death jester reroll charges with Prince of Light. So I'm not sure that mixing and matching pivotal roles across units should even be a thing, and if it is a thing, I'm not sold on the GH being the missing ingredient to unlock it.


The concept here was that when Cegorach effectively appears in the performance, up is down and left is right. His own followers take on paradoxical roles and act differently - all part of the infinite jest and the epic god-level trolling of Cegorach.

I'm not wedded to the idea, but I like the concept of Cegorach's nature meaning even his own side is trolled a little (I did have an idea physically swapping a harlequin squad with an enemy squad as something he could do once per battle, but felt it would too easily be abused to take enemy units of objectives).

Something else you could do would be to have all the PRs in a table and each character has to role a random one, meaning they can't control which one they get but as none are really bad you get some interesting effects.




Wyldhunt wrote:


Path of shadows: deploy 9" away from enemy units outside deployment zone

That's infiltrate, not deepstrike, right? I'm not really a fan of turn 1 charges, but this guy wouldn't be the first to be able to pull it off.


Yeah it's just intended to be whatever the current infiltrate equivalent is at the moment.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Soul Mirror: Enemy units attacking a master mime in melee are at -1 to hit and can only score a maximum of 4 hits, regardless of the number of attacks made.

Death's Reflection: A successful roll to hit causes a mortal wound on Infantry units

Um. This guy is way more durable and killy than the GH and most characters in the game for that matter. Even if your opponent wounds all 4 times, you'll ignore half of those on average (4+ invul). And at 5 wounds, chances of him being killable in a duel are pretty slim. I feel like there are some words missing from Death's Reflection? Does the ability only trigger on to-wound rolls of 6? Does it do a mortal wound instead of or in addition to normal damage? A Frozen Stars version of this guy is going to be doing up to 5 mortal wounds each time he fights (so potentially 10 mortal wounds a turn), more if he's standing near the GH.

In other harlequin projects I've seen in the past, the master mime has just be a sneaky character, sometimes with sabotauge-related rules. What is your interpretation of this guy that makes him so much more durable and lethal than a troupe master?


I have written mimes many times with different rules because I've never been satisfied with each iteration. This one is closer but still not perfect.

My thinking is that they are literally mimes, they mime you to your soul in a way so psychologically perfectly and chillingly that you find it hard to fight them. Think of those movies and shows where mirror versions of the heroes show up to fight them and they have to defeat themselves. They're impossible to hit because they already know what you're going to do. They always strike with unerring accuracy at your weakest point.

So conceptually the master mime should be an infiltrating mirror assassin, that is hard to hit and ties you with his frustrating mime in a box routine that you just can't hit, while stabbing you every now and then to perfectly damage you.

The death's reflection was literally 'if you hit an infantry model, the damage is now a mortal wound instead'. I could shift that to 'a hit on a 4+ is converted to a mortal wound', while the mimes have their 6+ instead.

At most he can do 4 wounds, mortal or otherwise (he can't take a Kiss for example). So he's kind of a tarpit model who whittles you down while avoiding being stabbed.


Wyldhunt wrote:

Mimes (5-12)

M8" WS3+ BS3+ S3 T3 W1 A2 Ld9 Sv6+

4++

Flip Belt, Rising Crescendo

Shuriken pistol
Harlequin's Blade Melee S User AP0 D1

Path of shadows: deploy 9" away from enemy units outside deployment zone

Reflection of Death: Enemy units attacking mimes in melee are at -1 to hit and can only score a maximum number of hits equal to the models currently in the unit

Deaths' Shadow: A 6 to hit in melee causes a mortal wound on Infantry units

It bugs me that Reflection of Death and Death's Shadow both sound similar to Death's Reflection. Reflection of Death bugs me in that it's really useful against some melee units and really meh against others. A unit of power fists won't mind it much at all, but a squad of wyches or flayed ones will be flummoxed. Which is especially odd given that I'd expect the slow clunky weapons to be worse at hitting the bouncy ninja elves than the super fast blender units are.

Also, I worry about their role. Weaker clowns with infiltrate made more sense in editions where you couldn't outflank big chunks of your army with CP. Using infiltrate on these guys makes me think they're going to either suicide rush the enemy on turn 1 or else dive onto objectives and be the first to die. Neither of which feels terribly fluffy for a hyper-elite clown posse.

In the past, I've seen mimes represented with sabotage rules, haywire grenades, rules that made their cover saves really effective. Maybe give them something along those lines so they can do more than just dogpile the enemy?


Don't worry about the names too much, it's mainly because GW refuse to use standardised USR names for things... Pretty all my commentary here is the same as the master mime. These guys are supposed to be a tarpit unit, being hard to kill and slowly but not catastrophically slaughtering the enemy.

All the saboteur haywire stuff has never gelled with the actual role of a Mime in my mind, so I've never really supported the idea. All my mime concepts have been about trying to represent them as Literal mirror mime monsters.

Wyldhunt wrote:


Stage Automata (5-10)

M6" WS3+ BS3+ S4 T5 W2 A2 Ld10 Sv3+

5++

Holo Launchers range 36" S2 AP-3 D1 Assault 1d3+1 (blast) If the target unit loses one or more wounds roll 2D6 against the target's leadership. If it is equal to or higher, the unit is considered BS6+ for the following round.
Pyro Burst 48" S5 AP-2 D1 Assault 1D3+1 (blast) may target units you can't see
Laser grid 24" S1D6 AP-1 D1 Assault 3. Always hits aircraft on a 3+
Mono wires Melee S User AP-3 D1 6s to wound inflict 1 additional wound

Choose 1 weapon - holo launchers, pyro burst or laser grid for each automata

Like the mental image. Question if they really deserve an invul.

The random number of shots and low damage on the holo launchers make me think they would be annoying to use in the same way that drukhari phantasm launchers are annoying to use. Currently, you require a number of shots roll, a to-wound roll with a strength so low you'll frequently do no damage, and a leadership test before the special rule you take the weapon for kicks in. Also, the nature of the weapon strongly encourages you to splitfire each one at a different enemy unit making it take even longer to resolve. Also, I'm unclear on how long the debuff lasts. Until the start of the harlequin player's next turn?

I'd probably make the holo launchers a 1 per 5 upgrade, and do something like this:
Holo Launchers - Range: 36", S*, AP0, Damage 0, Assault 1, Targets hit by this weapon may not target units more than 15" away with ranged weapons until the start of the harlequin player's next turn.

Gets rid of some of the wonkiness of changing the enemy's stats and how that would interact with various to-hit penalties the harlies have. Much quicker to resolve. The low number of shots and to-hit roll are a natural limiter on how many of these you can/will want to spam. Basically lets you protect your right flank from shooting on the left side of the table and vice versa.

Pyro burst looks fine. The wires look fine, although I'm not sure why you're departing from the other monofilament rules in the game.

Laser Grid sounds cool, but I'm not sure what you're going for. The random strength (average 3.5) is low enough to make this weapon seem pretty bad against most aircraft, and yet the special rule implies you're supposed to shoot it at aircraft. The random strength also potentially forces me to resolve this weapon's shooting in a bunch of different dice pools. If I point it at guardsmen, for instance, I could end up wounding on anything from 2+ to 6+ all as part of the same volley. (Unless otherwise stated, you roll that d6 for each gun instead of once for the whole squad.) And at the end of all that, you probably end up with math that looks very similar to if you'd just given it a flat strength of 3 or 4. Looks time consuming and annoying to use, and I'm not clear on what I'm supposed to be using it against. Maybe just change this one to a lasblaster?

I like all of these unit concepts, but I'm not sold on their execution. If you have any interest in seeing a relatively recent take on the Great Harlequin, check out A Deadly Wit (available on Audible). The GH there doesn't come across as particularly supernatural, so he may not fit what you're going for. But it's still a fun little listen.



Debuff should work the same as the hallucinogen grenades, I'm not averse to them split firing a lot as they're only in a squad for battle. Normally htey'd just be deployed around the stage doing their part of the show. The invulneravble is their own equivalent of a holofield (as they're stage crew they have to be invisible during the performance - the eldar equivalent of fully body black outfits we use).

With these ones (and again name is placeholder) I'm thinking of actual robots rather than wraithguard (or prefall wraithguard designs that don't use souls) that are basically the stage crew and special effects team, but their FX are classic harlequin levels of lethal (makes the show more intense that the audience could be killed by the pyro technics but the performance is so flawless there's no risk).

Hence why I envisage these guys with pack harness grenade launcher type things (like the shadowseer) each one programmed to launch a different style of FX, but this time at the enemy.

So you've got holographic grenade projectors that are fired at the crowd (enemy) and release whatever cooked psycho construct they want that is so realistic people freak and shoot them only to kill their own team.

You've got classic pyrotechnics that can be launched anywhere to explode in all sorts of colours.

Then you've got sweet 80s laser grids that crisscross the night sky creating the perfect dubstep environment.... :p

Happy to change the strength of the laser grid - the anti aircraft component was more a fact of how they work than a deliberately designed AA weapon - they just create big laser nets in the sky (like monofilament but LAZORS).


Thanks again for your feedback.





This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/25 05:41:09


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Hellebore wrote:
Hey Wyldhunt, first off I'd like to say that I appreciate you taking the time to provide feedback in the detail you do. Whether we agree on execution or background, you've always been thoughtful and attentive when providing feedback.

Thanks for taking the time to read through my ramblings!


The great harlequin also used to be called the High Avatar as they basically were Cegorach on the battlefield. I'm going with these guys being the Cegorach version of a solitaire/phoenix lord, manifesting avatar esque godly powers that reflect their god's domain.

In this instance I was trying to go with a 'last laugh/jokes on you' feel, where the worst roll a harlequin could make turns out to be a surprise advantage. That their enemies think they've fumbled only for it to turn into a lethal strike. In effect, rolling a 1 gives you a chance to re-roll the attack and provides another attack as well.

As he is the living avatar of Cegorarch, the aura of trickery and jesteryness that emanates from him warps reality (like the Deceiver).

I think for me, the existence of other abilities that increase your chances of hitting invites comparison. So on a thematic level, I see what you're going for, but the story that this ability tells me is more like, "this guy is good at boosting the accuracy of his buddies like a marine captain, but better. He must be really good at barking out orders." I'm not too worried about it. The ability isn't unreasonable. I just wonder if there might be a different way to convey the same feeling you're going for.


The sequencing would be simultaneous (I don't believe the rules distinguishes between different weapons being rolled separately as happening at different times - it's just a procedural thing to help roll lots of different attacks). So you roll your attacks, put aside 1s and keep doing so until all the shooting attacks have occurred. Then you resolve damage against the target and 1s against the attacking unit.

Gotcha. I wasn't sure. When using similar abilities (mostly the Cursed Blade warlord trait), I always resolve my saves/damage one at a time to make sure I'm not doing more damage to my opponent than I'm supposed to.


I don't have an issue with this working on shooting because I envisage this being hallucinogenic trickery of a godlike-like reality warping level. Things like The firer having their perception distorted so the GH now looks like their mother and their squad mates look like daemons, or the The shot disappearing through a micro warp tear only to reappear going back in the opposite direction and so on.

I am very much seeing the GH as the harlequin equivalent of the Yncarne or Avatar of Khaine.

Hmm. Given the overtly supernatural nature of some of these powers, I find myself wondering if it might make sense to make some of them psychic powers or C'Tan-esque powers. But maybe that's over-complicating things. Other powers exist that make you think your allies are monsters, so my first instinct is to make this work in a similar fashion to clarify exactly what the GH is doing. Again, probably fine as-is.


The concept here was that when Cegorach effectively appears in the performance, up is down and left is right. His own followers take on paradoxical roles and act differently - all part of the infinite jest and the epic god-level trolling of Cegorach.

I'm not wedded to the idea, but I like the concept of Cegorach's nature meaning even his own side is trolled a little (I did have an idea physically swapping a harlequin squad with an enemy squad as something he could do once per battle, but felt it would too easily be abused to take enemy units of objectives).

Something else you could do would be to have all the PRs in a table and each character has to role a random one, meaning they can't control which one they get but as none are really bad you get some interesting effects.

I still don't love this one even with the explanation. But maybe that's just a difference in how we see Cegorach. To me, he's less random weirdness and more... a mirror held up to show his audience/victim their flaws. The same way a lot of trickster spirits in real-world mythology teach humans lessons either through pranks or through the stories of what they did to their victims. Plus, I see stories themselves as being a big part of his domain. If anything, I'd think actors would lean into their roles even more rather than swapping masks at random right before the fight.

Personally, I'd rather see this ability go away or at least not be tied to the GH. It seems hard to balance, and it doesn't seem especially on-brand. Plus, you could use the freed up design space to give him something more appropriate. But again, that's just me.


I have written mimes many times with different rules because I've never been satisfied with each iteration. This one is closer but still not perfect.

My thinking is that they are literally mimes, they mime you to your soul in a way so psychologically perfectly and chillingly that you find it hard to fight them. Think of those movies and shows where mirror versions of the heroes show up to fight them and they have to defeat themselves. They're impossible to hit because they already know what you're going to do. They always strike with unerring accuracy at your weakest point.

So conceptually the master mime should be an infiltrating mirror assassin, that is hard to hit and ties you with his frustrating mime in a box routine that you just can't hit, while stabbing you every now and then to perfectly damage you.

Okay. I vaguely recall us discussing them in the past. I still worry that this guy is going to end up frustratingly durable. This guy can shut down a huge amount of the offense aimed at him, and you need to average 2.5 (so 3) damage per unsaved wound to have a good chance of killing him in one turn. Thoughts on just giving him a culexus-style, "only gets hit on a 6+" rule?


The death's reflection was literally 'if you hit an infantry model, the damage is now a mortal wound instead'. I could shift that to 'a hit on a 4+ is converted to a mortal wound', while the mimes have their 6+ instead.

At most he can do 4 wounds, mortal or otherwise (he can't take a Kiss for example). So he's kind of a tarpit model who whittles you down while avoiding being stabbed.

Ah. So to clarify, he still rolls to wound as normal. It's just that any successful wounds ignore armor and invul saves? That's much more reasonable. Still really strong, but much more reasonable than instantly turning every hit into a mortal wound. I"m a little unclear on the nature of his weaponry. Isn't striking specific spots with extreme precision (while assisted by a power field) basically how caresses are described as working?


Don't worry about the names too much, it's mainly because GW refuse to use standardised USR names for things...

Sure sure. But you're less likely to confuse your opponent if you differentiate the names a bit more.


Pretty all my commentary here is the same as the master mime. These guys are supposed to be a tarpit unit, being hard to kill and slowly but not catastrophically slaughtering the enemy.

All the saboteur haywire stuff has never gelled with the actual role of a Mime in my mind, so I've never really supported the idea. All my mime concepts have been about trying to represent them as Literal mirror mime monsters.

Fair enough. Your rules probably do that reasonably well.


Debuff should work the same as the hallucinogen grenades, I'm not averse to them split firing a lot as they're only in a squad for battle.

I'm only concerned about it from a speed of play perspective. I really like using phantasm launchers, but I usually skip using most of them on a given turn because they take so long to resolve. I could see the same problem here. If nothing else, giving them a flat number of shots would speed things up a lot.


Normally htey'd just be deployed around the stage doing their part of the show. The invulneravble is their own equivalent of a holofield (as they're stage crew they have to be invisible during the performance - the eldar equivalent of fully body black outfits we use).

Fair enough! I could see that just being a to-hit penalty, but an invul works too.


Happy to change the strength of the laser grid - the anti aircraft component was more a fact of how they work than a deliberately designed AA weapon - they just create big laser nets in the sky (like monofilament but LAZORS).

Yeah. I'd definitely tweak these a bit. Giving them a flat strength would speed up resolving their attacks a bunch. If they're not really meant to be an AA weapon, I'd probably drop the special rule for simplicity's sake. Again, basically making these lasblasters would probably be fine.


Thanks again for your feedback.

Thanks for taking the time to read it!


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

May I recommend the following for Avatar of Cegorach?

"In your Command phase, select one friendly <MASQUE> unit within 6" of this model. Until the start of your next Command phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack, treat a hit roll of 1 as if it were a roll of 6 instead."

This is essentially +1 to hit, but I think it conveys the flavour you were looking for.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

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Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

When taken as a whole with the current performance of Harlequins on the table don't these additions run the risk of pushing this faction even further over the top than they already are?
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





MinMax wrote:May I recommend the following for Avatar of Cegorach?

"In your Command phase, select one friendly <MASQUE> unit within 6" of this model. Until the start of your next Command phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack, treat a hit roll of 1 as if it were a roll of 6 instead."

This is essentially +1 to hit, but I think it conveys the flavour you were looking for.



Yeah that could work, nice idea.


Canadian 5th wrote:When taken as a whole with the current performance of Harlequins on the table don't these additions run the risk of pushing this faction even further over the top than they already are?



Potentially, it would need price balancing and looking at the other units in the army. The mines and robots have a different kind of role though so taking them will change the way the army plays

   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

 Hellebore wrote:
Potentially, it would need price balancing and looking at the other units in the army. The mines and robots have a different kind of role though so taking them will change the way the army plays

The regular units look fine, it's the HQ Buff stacked with the current suite of buffs that worries me.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 MinMax wrote:
May I recommend the following for Avatar of Cegorach?

"In your Command phase, select one friendly <MASQUE> unit within 6" of this model. Until the start of your next Command phase, each time a model in that unit makes an attack, treat a hit roll of 1 as if it were a roll of 6 instead."

This is essentially +1 to hit, but I think it conveys the flavour you were looking for.
Not quite-it's +1 to-hit, but it also means that Characters (and anyone else hitting on a 2+ for whatever reason) just don't ever miss.

Not game-breaking by any means (Marines and Custodes can get 2+ RR1s, which is a 97% hit rate) but something to keep in mind. Also triggers anything that happens on a 6 or 6+ to-hit, but that's both obvious and doesn't apply to Harlequins, as far as I know.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Why not, in addition to "more units," increase the options available to existing units?

For example, the Death Jester in older editions had access to the Bright Lance or other heavy weapons; why not allow the Jester access to a Prismatic Cannon for additional fun playing marksman?

Why is it that only foot Harlequins can take Fusion and Disruptor Pistols, while their Bikers cannot? Clearly there was no issue wielding their Star-Bolas from a speeding jetbike, but a small unit dual-wielding pistols would give the game its bike-mounted equivalent of "Empire Pistoliers" that currently isn't really modeled in-game.

The Shadowseer having a Phantasm Launcher is neat, but having a general-purpose Creidann Launcher to increase the range of any Grenades would also be useful; IIRC, it was essentially the equivalent of a Mind Impulse grenade launcher.
   
 
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