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Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






I have listed pts values for every army in Google sheets. I'm thinking I will go through a dozen or so pages of Dakka discussion as well as the Goonhammer and 1d4chan articles for each of the remaining armies before I release my first drafts for pts suggestions for the remaining factions. My other project Warhammer Forty Thousand Points is on hold because I wanted a system where if both players agree my points costs for Necrons are more fair than GW's then they can play with those even if they disagree on whether the points costs for Harlequins are fair.

I would be grateful for anyone that can point out errors I might have made in inputting pts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T8GnkAKp8jz9toKfaM5mPBrhxiHrctpPGUPEq1iBjGI/edit?usp=sharing

SPACE MARINES

Increased cost of combi-plasma, combi-melta, storm shields on Elites, Eradicators, increased cost of jump packs for Vanguard Veterans and Assault Squads, Outriders, Bladeguard Veterans and multi-meltas on all but Infantry.

Decreased cost of combi-grav, grav guns, combi-flamers, Vanguard Veterans, Assault SquadsRazorbacks, Rhinos, Predators, Gladiators and Land Raiders.

CHAPTER MISC

No changes.

BLOOD ANGELS

Increased cost of Death Company Jump Packs and Sanguinary Guard.

Decreased cost of Death Company.

DARK ANGELS

Increased cost of Ravenwing Talonmasters, Deathwing Command Squads, Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Black Knights.

SPACE WOLVES

Increased cost of Bjorn's multi-melta, Stormwolf's melta array and storm shields on Wolf Guard Terminator Squads, Wolf Guard Squads and Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Decreased cost of combi-grav, grav guns, combi-flamers, flyers, thunder hammers on Wolf Guard Terminators and Wulfen.

DEATHWATCH

Decreased cost of Veteran Bike combi-weapons, combi-flamer, combi-grav, grav guns, storm shields and hammers for Deathwatch Veterans when bought in bulk.

Increased cost of multi-meltas.

GREY KNIGHTS

Reduced cost of INFANTRY CHARACTERS.

Increased cost of multi-meltas.

ADEPTUS CUSTODES AND SISTERS OF SILENCE

Decreased the cost of Land Raiders, Wardens and Sisters of Silence.

Increased the cost of Trajan, Bike Captains,Terminator Captains Vexilla Magnifica, tarsus bucklers and Telemon Heavy Dreadnoughts.

ASTRA MILITARUM

Changed Marauders from Lords of War to Flyers.

Decreased cost of Malcadors, Earthshaker Carriage Battery, Heavy Mortar Battery, Wyverns, Commissars, Lord Commissars, Heavy Weapon Squads, Ogryn, Tank Commanders, Pask, Battle Tanks, Conscripts and Infantry Squads.

Decreased cost of heavy stubbers, storm bolters, plasma pistols and bolt pistols. Increased cost of plasma for BS4+ units.

Increased cost of heavy bolters compared to autocannons and decreased missile launchers compared to lascannons.

Increased cost of power swords on Death Korps.

CHAOS DAEMONS

Reduced cost of Blue Horrors, Brimstone Horrors, Exalted Flamers, Bloodcrushers, Screamers, Flesh Hounds, Soul Grinders, Hellflayers, big units of Furies, Fortifications and all Bloodthirsters.

Increased cost of Beasts of Nurgle and Nurglings.

NECRONS

More expensive Chronomancer, gauss reapers for Warriors, Silent King and Tesseract Vault.

Cheaper hyperphase swords and voidblades for characters and cheaper tesla Immortals, Deceiver, Plasmancer, Lokhust (Heavy) Destroyers, Obelisk, Monolith and Deceiver.

T’AU EMPIRE

Rounded up Razorshark Strike Fighter cost.

Reduced cost of Crisis Bodyguards and Battlesuits as well as many of their weapons costs.

Reduced the cost of Sniper Drones, Tactical Drones, Vespid, Troops, Hazard Battlesuits, Stealth Battlesuits, Krootox Riders, Hammerheads, Skyrays, Barracudas, Riptides, Manta, Ta'unar, Piranhas and Tetras.

TYRANIDS

Reduced cost of blast weapons and melee weapons for Hive Tyrants, increased cost of rending claws for Hive Tyrants.

Increased cost of Dimachaeron and Scythed Hierodule

HARLEQUINS

Increased cost of fusion pistols, Shadowseer, Troupe and Solitaire, Troupe Master melee weapons and haywire cannons for Skyweavers.

Decreased cost of Webway Gates, neuro disruptors, Voidweavers and Skyweavers.

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2021/04/24 13:08:19


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I just checked through your Guard tweaks. I do like most of them but here’s my suggestions:

- Commissar Yarrick: Needs to go down to 95 points maximum. 100 points is definitely a breaking point for a Guard character and he’s not that much better than Straken.

- Deathrider Command Squadron: 80 points. Make them 20 each.
- Master of Ordinance: 25 points. Same as a Platoon Commander. Their ability to reroll 1’s on artillery is basically useless at the moment and they’re only really worth taking for their artillery strike. I’d also give them access to the melee weapon and ranged weapon lists.
- Ratlings: 35 points. 7 points a model. Their statline is worse than a Guardsman, even bolters will wound them on 2’s. Sniper rifles are also only 2 points. So, basically 5 points for the statline and abilities, 2 points for the gun.
- Severina Raine: 25 points. She’s honestly not much better than a regular Commissar.
- Wyrdvane Psykers: 15 points. 5 points each. No character protection. Worse statline than Guardsmen. Unreliable casting. At least with 5 points a model you could take 6 of them for cheaper than an Astropath and be able to cast most powers on a 4+. Still overall worse than taking that Astro but it’s far better than what they can currently do.

- Deathrider Squadron: 90 points. 18 per model. Far too durable for 15 points.
- Hellhound: I don’t see the Chem Cannon so I guess it’s free?

- Basilisk: 120 points. With the Russ going down the Basilisk needs some love. The Russ can double shoot and many of its turret options do the Basilisks job better.
- Malcador Annihilator: 220 points. I don’t think it should be cheaper than the standard Malcador.
- Malcador Defender: 240 points. It’s probably the most competitive variant of Malcador at the moment. 7 heavy bolters is actually very scary.
- Valdor Tank Hunter: 260 points. It doesn’t need to be more than 2 Leman Russ Vanquishers.

- Hellhammer: 450 points. I really don’t think any Baneblades should go over 450 points.
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






I think chem cannons are worth 10 pts less than the other options, do you disagree?

I forgot to change the Malcador, it is intended to be cheaper. Do you think Malcador Defenders are competitive at 220? Would you feel like you were powergaming by including one in your list?

145 vs 220

You get 50% more wounds and 6 heavy bolters, but lose grinding advance and possibly obsec depending on detachment. You are hitting on 5+ in melee, unable to shoot your demolisher, so it has the same melee weakness, except you will have fewer Malcador Defenders than Leman Russes in your list if you are choosing between them. That means being more susceptible to getting tagged in melee. Is 3 Defenders scary? Yeah, but more scary than 3 HWT with heavy bolters and 4 demolisher Russes?

Thank you for your response, I will need some time to study and think things over.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 vict0988 wrote:
I think chem cannons are worth 10 pts less than the other options, do you disagree?


I definitely agree, I was just double checking to see if it was missed or not. Though, I do believe the melta cannon should be free as well. Unlike the chem cannon and inferno cannon it doesn't auto-hit, it's shot potential is also not reliable. 33% of the time it's just a worse multi-melta.

 vict0988 wrote:
I forgot to change the Malcador, it is intended to be cheaper. Do you think Malcador Defenders are competitive at 220? Would you feel like you were powergaming by including one in your list?

145 vs 220

You get 50% more wounds and 6 heavy bolters, but lose grinding advance and possibly obsec depending on detachment. You are hitting on 5+ in melee, unable to shoot your demolisher, so it has the same melee weakness, except you will have fewer Malcador Defenders than Leman Russes in your list if you are choosing between them. That means being more susceptible to getting tagged in melee. Is 3 Defenders scary? Yeah, but more scary than 3 HWT with heavy bolters and 4 demolisher Russes?

Thank you for your response, I will need some time to study and think things over.


I had to think about the Malcador's a bit more on how I'd cost them. Currently a Leman Russ Battle Tank with battle cannon and triple heavy bolters is 190 points. The standard Malcador is 210 with battle cannon and triple heavy bolters.

If you think of it this way, you get 50% more wounds and double the movement, but half the firepower. That's not too bad, so using the current points I think 195 would be fair. Maybe even 190 as the Malcador doesn't get access to things like tank orders, or it's own stratagems like the Leman Russ does.

So going off your suggested point values the Malcador might even be viable to go as low as 170 points.

The Annihilator variant should be 190 (upgrading 1 of those heavy bolters is 5 points and an additional lascannon is 15 points).

The Defender would be around 210 (4 additional heavy bolters over the standard Malcador would be 40 points).

The Infernus is a bit harder to place. Maybe 200 and I'd make the heavy stubbers free.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 23:21:34


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Not sure I am reading this right, you think Trajaan should cost 15 point MORE than a SC on a jetbike? And you think Wardens should cost 52 points, but a Venetari is only 55? You may be slightly off. Not sure if you just put those in accidently but that is not good. Not for balance or for fun.
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






I had not gotten around to nerfing any Custodes units, it should have said pre-alpha for that sheet.

I do think Trajan should cost more than a bike Captain, his re-roll 1s to wound aura is unique and powerful in Custodes. They are also equally popular, people are not spamming bike Captains anymore.

I don't think Wardens can go much lower than 52, but I increased the cost of tarsus bucklers which seem to be by far the best choice for Venatari, that should even things out a little.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 05:45:22


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




So, you want to nerf a unit because it's not used as much? But buff the wardens because they aren't. I don't see the point. Wardens are costed where they are because they are character level models, that hit like a truck and are difficult to kill. Making an elite unit cost roughly the same as a troop unit is counter productive. There is no point in taking them now because we are elite heavy. Change their keywords to make them viable, not their cost.
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, you want to nerf a unit because it's not used as much?

I don't understand. I want to nerf units that are overpowered, you can find which units are overpowered by looking at which units are included in lists that perform well and by doing math. Which unit which is not used much did I nerf?
But buff the wardens because they aren't. I don't see the point. Wardens are costed where they are because they are character level models, that hit like a truck and are difficult to kill. Making an elite unit cost roughly the same as a troop unit is counter productive. There is no point in taking them now because we are elite heavy. Change their keywords to make them viable, not their cost.

Wardens are not used AFAIK, I assume it is because their value relative to Custodian Guard is not good enough and because they are not Troops so they have to compete with the whole codex more or less rather than just the Troops slot. For you to judge it as counterproductive you would have to determine what the intention is, lots of Elites cost about the same as Troops, Vanguard Veterans cost 2 more points (11% more) than Assault Marines. The bar is therefore 50 pts and I have put Wardens above that. I am not changing any keywords, that's not what this project is about, only points are being changed and in rare situations I may change LOW to Flyers.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




If you are attempting to make a unit more relevant by dropping it's price, you inherently make other elite units less relevant, because the same utility (S8 axes) can be bought cheaper through wardens now, than Terminators. So wardens now become better big unit attackers due to the almost 30% drop in cost.

I am not sure why you are comparing Vanguard Vets to Assault Marines, and then Wardens. The only thing in the Astartes lineup that comes close to being a Warden is an Assault Terminator, and even that isn't that close. Even that needs a SS/TH to hit the same and have relative durability, and even then it's hitting on 4s, has T4, and less wounds, no FnP, and no real stratgem support close to what Custodes get.

I don't think you understand what Custodes need or want if you are seriously considering nerfing the Telemon in points, and Venetari. While buffing Wardens in a point decrease.
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If you are attempting to make a unit more relevant by dropping it's price, you inherently make other elite units less relevant, because the same utility (S8 axes) can be bought cheaper through wardens now, than Terminators. So wardens now become better big unit attackers due to the almost 30% drop in cost.

I am not sure why you are comparing Vanguard Vets to Assault Marines, and then Wardens. The only thing in the Astartes lineup that comes close to being a Warden is an Assault Terminator, and even that isn't that close. Even that needs a SS/TH to hit the same and have relative durability, and even then it's hitting on 4s, has T4, and less wounds, no FnP, and no real stratgem support close to what Custodes get.

Axe Wardens went from 60 to 57, that's not even 6%, how do you get 30%? Vanguard Vets are an upgraded Assault Squad like Wardens are an upgraded Custodian Guard Squad.

I don't think you understand what Custodes need or want if you are seriously considering nerfing the Telemon in points, and Venetari. While buffing Wardens in a point decrease.

Why don't you try telling me?
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Custodes want better shooting, fixed damage profiles, 2 for spears and 4 for axes, always on transhuman, always on Bolter Discipline, and better anti-psyker/SoS integration. We like our telemons right where they are, and no one has used wardens, almost ever. They are a waste of an elite slot. Venetari are extremely popular now, and see a great deal of use. Most people would love to use the Ares, but at 450 points it's hard to fit in. Land raiders are a pointless unit to try and fix, for multiple reasons.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Custodes want better shooting, fixed damage profiles, 2 for spears and 4 for axes, always on transhuman, always on Bolter Discipline, and better anti-psyker/SoS integration. We like our telemons right where they are, and no one has used wardens, almost ever. They are a waste of an elite slot. Venetari are extremely popular now, and see a great deal of use. Most people would love to use the Ares, but at 450 points it's hard to fit in. Land raiders are a pointless unit to try and fix, for multiple reasons.


Looks like he dropped Custode Landraider to 260. Which is pretty cheap considering that's the same points cost as the Space Marine counterparts also in this spreadsheet.

I'd recommend dropping the basic Space Marine Landraiders to 245 points. At the very least. As the Custode version gets BS2+ and a 6+++.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/25 08:49:11


 
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






Iron Hands Land Raiders get the same FNP, has the same BS when it has 3-8 wounds, has re-roll 1s and AP-1 on Heavy weapons turn 1 and AP-1 on RF guns turn 2 and maybe also turn 3.

It also has shock assault

I think they are about equal, Custodes Land Raiders are much better in soup situations but I will consider whether SM Land Raiders need a bigger buff.
   
Made in at
Deranged Necron Destroyer





It's annoying that the current point costs aren't in there for comparison.

Necrons:
You cut the Lord by 15 points instead of 5 like the other HQ's
Named C'Tan are between 350 and 370, I assume you didn't want to give them all 100+ pt discounts
You could probably be more aggressive with the Nightshroud, I don't think I'd take it even if it were the same cost as Nightscythe.
Doomsday ark is also still overcosted. At the current price, it would probably need d3+3 Damage or something.
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






Irdiumstern wrote:
It's annoying that the current point costs aren't in there for comparison.

Necrons:
You cut the Lord by 15 points instead of 5 like the other HQ's
Named C'Tan are between 350 and 370, I assume you didn't want to give them all 100+ pt discounts
You could probably be more aggressive with the Nightshroud, I don't think I'd take it even if it were the same cost as Nightscythe.
Doomsday ark is also still overcosted. At the current price, it would probably need d3+3 Damage or something.

Lord cut was intentional, let me know if you disagree, all the original points are up now, the 80-120 pt cut on C'tan was unintended as you guessed.
   
Made in at
Deranged Necron Destroyer





 vict0988 wrote:
Irdiumstern wrote:
It's annoying that the current point costs aren't in there for comparison.

Necrons:
You cut the Lord by 15 points instead of 5 like the other HQ's
Named C'Tan are between 350 and 370, I assume you didn't want to give them all 100+ pt discounts
You could probably be more aggressive with the Nightshroud, I don't think I'd take it even if it were the same cost as Nightscythe.
Doomsday ark is also still overcosted. At the current price, it would probably need d3+3 Damage or something.

Lord cut was intentional, let me know if you disagree, all the original points are up now, the 80-120 pt cut on C'tan was unintended as you guessed.


Interesting. I'm a little conflicted, since at 55 I might actually play a Lord, but on the other hand an 85 point Rez Orb might be a bit much. It's probably ok with the nerfs to Warriors + Chronomancer though, just feels like something to keep an eye on.

Thanks for the point comparison, it's very convenient.
   
 
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