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Made in at
Dakka Veteran




Just had an interesting shower thought. Might be obvious to some, but I found the fact interesting that both the 300 spartans who held the thermopylae, as well as the persian immortals (who allegedly always numbered 10000) they fought against are somewhat referenced within the adeptus custodes lore.

For those who are not aware, the custodes are sometimes called the ten thousand, because that was always their maximum number. They also have an elite group among them called the companions (or hetaeron guard on 30k) who always number exactly 300 and directly guard the emperor at all times.

Just a little lore tidbit I liked to share, nothing earth shattering, but I like the reference to ancient greek mythology.
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





They are based more on the Macedonian companion cavalry of Alexander the Great. Even to the extent that they are philosopher warriors (Alexander was steeped in classical Greek philosophy) and that they were the emperor's confidants/friends. Even the 300 are reminiscent of the companion cavalry, a squadron of which contained c. 300 men.

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Made in us
Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun




Another potential historical basis for the ten thousand Custodes could be the 10000 Greek Mercenaries commanded by Xenophon. I'll simply post the wikipedia link for anyone who wishes to read a little about them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Thousand
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Bath

The Greek word for "ten thousand" was "Myriad", and was synonymous with "countless". The word still is, as you can talk of the "myriad of ways that people complain about space marines being OP", for example

A lot of references to 10,000 in historical Greek writing are likely this latter, figurative usage than a literal head count. Some are not (it was also a high level formaton, a division of the a large army was into myriads of 10,000 men, though actual fighting strength would be much, much lower form attrition.), but its one to bear in mind when looking at classical references to 10,000.


it was also, before the writing of the Horus Heresy book series, the "base" size for the pre heresy legions, from the early lore right up the start of the HH books, with them being scaled up tenfold in the HH series as people felt that their were too few marines for this galaxy spanning epic conquest. the "big" ultramarines were only about 30,000 strong at the start of the heresy, and had enough marines left to form 20-odd chapters at the end, whereas modern lore puts even the smaller legions at 60,000 +.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

It may also be of interest that the Greek army at Thermopylae consisted of just 300 Spartans.... and also about 6'000 other Greeks soldiers

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

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Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 harlokin wrote:
It may also be of interest that the Greek army at Thermopylae consisted of just 300 Spartans.... and also about 6'000 other Greeks soldiers

It was a masterclass in self promotion for the Spartans that has def passed the test of time

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/01 21:16:24


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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Made in ca
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




The battle at Thermopylae is part of Greek Mythology now?

123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
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123ply wrote:
The battle at Thermopylae is part of Greek Mythology now?

Well, the idea that the Greek force consisted only of 300 Spartans is a myth, at least.
   
Made in gb
Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Apparently, 300 was intended to be fantasy by both Frank Miller and Zack Snyder but then too many people decided that because it was set in the past it had to be true.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Gert wrote:
Apparently, 300 was intended to be fantasy by both Frank Miller and Zack Snyder but then too many people decided that because it was set in the past it had to be true.


I took it as the "this is the story that the Spartans tell" - (well an American version of it) - still a good fun film. And they did keep the line "We shall fight in the shade" which i was pleased about.

History is much more butchered in the second film

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper




And said by Michael Fassbender no less

 
   
Made in gb
Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun




Bath

 Mr Morden wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Apparently, 300 was intended to be fantasy by both Frank Miller and Zack Snyder but then too many people decided that because it was set in the past it had to be true.


I took it as the "this is the story that the Spartans tell" - (well an American version of it) - still a good fun film. And they did keep the line "We shall fight in the shade" which i was pleased about.

History is much more butchered in the second film


A lot of that flim was strung together form famous parts of the story, and the spartan story in general. "fight in the shade", the throwing of the envoys down to the well to "dig out yourself" the earth and water, the "only spartan women give birth to real men" like by the queen, and the queens instruction to the king to come back "with this shield, or on it".

the Spartans were the original laconic wits, after all (as in, the term is derived form Laconia, the area that Sparta was in and ruled).

and yes, thier were more than just 300 at the hot gates. about 900 Helot slaves (because the Spartans, being all warriors and all, had a massive slave population, even by the slave heavy standards of the day), who were also present at the last stand, and the total force was about 6,000 greeks.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

xerxeskingofking wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Apparently, 300 was intended to be fantasy by both Frank Miller and Zack Snyder but then too many people decided that because it was set in the past it had to be true.


I took it as the "this is the story that the Spartans tell" - (well an American version of it) - still a good fun film. And they did keep the line "We shall fight in the shade" which i was pleased about.

History is much more butchered in the second film


A lot of that flim was strung together form famous parts of the story, and the spartan story in general. "fight in the shade", the throwing of the envoys down to the well to "dig out yourself" the earth and water, the "only spartan women give birth to real men" like by the queen, and the queens instruction to the king to come back "with this shield, or on it".

the Spartans were the original laconic wits, after all (as in, the term is derived form Laconia, the area that Sparta was in and ruled).

and yes, thier were more than just 300 at the hot gates. about 900 Helot slaves (because the Spartans, being all warriors and all, had a massive slave population, even by the slave heavy standards of the day), who were also present at the last stand, and the total force was about 6,000 greeks.


yep And Artemisa was one of many Greek rulers that joined with the Persians, did well enough in the naval battle to attract the positive attention of the king (whilst eliminating a rival) and may have gone on to marry one of his sons.

Like pretty much all ancient cultures the Greeks had large slave populations.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





xerxeskingofking wrote:
The Greek word for "ten thousand" was "Myriad", and was synonymous with "countless". The word still is, as you can talk of the "myriad of ways that people complain about space marines being OP", for example

A lot of references to 10,000 in historical Greek writing are likely this latter, figurative usage than a literal head count. Some are not (it was also a high level formaton, a division of the a large army was into myriads of 10,000 men, though actual fighting strength would be much, much lower form attrition.), but its one to bear in mind when looking at classical references to 10,000.


it was also, before the writing of the Horus Heresy book series, the "base" size for the pre heresy legions, from the early lore right up the start of the HH books, with them being scaled up tenfold in the HH series as people felt that their were too few marines for this galaxy spanning epic conquest. the "big" ultramarines were only about 30,000 strong at the start of the heresy, and had enough marines left to form 20-odd chapters at the end, whereas modern lore puts even the smaller legions at 60,000 +.


This is often overlooked.
Myriad and the the number itself have long since become completely unrelated even though it makes it likely that their point was they were without number and unstoppable (potentially meaning they were many more than 10,000 which would make the fight even more impressive. Or not. Just too unknown.)
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

 Gert wrote:
Apparently, 300 was intended to be fantasy by both Frank Miller and Zack Snyder but then too many people decided that because it was set in the past it had to be true.


This is the trouble with historical fiction. If you do fantasy with a veneer of real historical past, you break people's expectations of telling a reasonably accurate story from real history. A great many of the audience instinctively and naïvely trust the creators to be rather faithful to the real past, despite the movie industry's track record. They don't think about it much at all. They don't look closer on the actual events behind the movie. They just lap it up passively.

Having the story set in an actual fantasy world with different names for everything solves this smoothly. Then you can have almost-Spartans battling almost-Persians at almost-Thermopylae, and you don't accidentally inject confusion and wrong perceptions into popular culture by pursuing the fantasy story you wished to tell in the first place.

Lesson: If you want to write a fantasy story, don't place it in the real world. Use other names. Use real quotes copied from ancient sources word by word, by all means, but change the names.

Yep, 300 and 10'000 for the Custodes are not chosen by accident. They're historical references, and 10'000 is a myriad, meaning many. The new Legion numbers are far more sensible than the old ones as well.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/04/17 15:11:50


   
 
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