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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

I have been thinking about some play throughs I have seen recently, and I have some thoughts.

The "secret" of the Greek "art of war" is the oblique attack. Basicly this means you refuse one flank, hold the center, and strike on the other. This is how Thebes beat Sparta, and most able general won with spears/Pikes till the Legionary became the standard in Europe.

So How do I do this in ADLG?

Lets try....

Strike Command Brill Gen, Included
HSpear, Elite, Includes General
HSpear, Elite
HSpear, x4


Central Command Comp Gen Incl.

HSpear, Includes Generl
HSpear, x7

Pinning Command Comp Gen, Incl.

MC, Includes General
MC
LH, Jav x2
Psiloi: LI, Jav x4, or Cretan Mercs LI, Bow, Elite

Support Inf. HSpear, x4

Peltasts, Javlinmen up to 3 depending on the Psiloi costs to be placed to support where needed. (Any command, depending on what you're planning)

This is just under 200 ..if I added right.

How do I fight?

I place my Center, it is unwieldy, but I do Not want to move unless I have to.

I choose my attack flank, that is where the Strike command goes

I choose my refused flank, and place my pinning force. They are tasked with pinning the Enemy, and/or getting around the flank.

My main play will be moving and attacking with my pinning force, and then I worry about getting my strike force into place to break through, and turn the flank.


This will let you use any spear/Pike force from a Greek/Diodachi list with good results....Maybe!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, now lets add some more "tech"...

Pyrrhic (in Italy)

Epirus, Brill general, included in Xystophoroi HC, Impact, Elite Incl Gen 15
Cav HC, x3 27

Tarrentine Cav, LH, Jav x2 12

Pike, x4 44
Italian Pike Pike, Medicore x4 32

Samnites M Swordsmen, Impact, Elite x1 10

Hypaspists MSpear, Elite x2 18

Lights: LI, Jav, x2
LI, Slings x2 16


If I added right this is almost 200



the strike arm will be the Horse, and I will add in some Infantry as well...
Strike command

Xystophoroi
HC, x3
Hypastpists x2

Center command Comp General

Pike, x4
Pike, Medicore x4

Refused command Comp General

Lights, x4
Samnites
Tarantine Cav LH, Jav x2

Fortified camp

This Should run very easy, and give a good fight to Romans

You can move things around, based on what you are dealing with, you can put the Tarentines in the Strike command for more speed, and try to double envelope with the Samnites and Hypaspists, you could bolster the samnites with Pike, and use the Hypaspists in the center...etc. But it is all variations on a theme.


This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/04/03 19:45:35


 
   
Made in gb
Watches History Channel




London

We recorded a podcast on using Hoplite armies under ADLG, which might be handy for you:

https://madaxeman.podbean.com/e/list-building-for-hoplite-armies-in-adlg/

www.madaxeman.com
See more of this rubbish there 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

Nice podcast! Made me think of painting up Classic Hoplites.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

 themadaxeman wrote:
We recorded a podcast on using Hoplite armies under ADLG, which might be handy for you:

https://madaxeman.podbean.com/e/list-building-for-hoplite-armies-in-adlg/
I think I have to stay with a Included General, the Greeks at this time were using the "Charasmatic" leadership model. That means leading from the front, the down side is as you note if the leader is wounded/killed then it can disrupt opperations. But it was and is an effective model, and it is historic....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I was doodling and thinking of Sparta...

Strike Command: Spartiates
HSpear, Elite, Armor Includes Brilliant General
HSpear, Elite, Armor x5

Perioikoi:
HSpear, Armor Includes Comp General (Spartan officers)
HSpear, x5
Psiloi: LI, Bow/Sling x4

Aetolians: Comp General
Peltasts: Javlinmen x3
Psiloi: LI, Jav x3

Spartan Cav: MC, medicore x2
Thracian horse: LH, Jav x2

This looks like it could do some work. Just a hair under 200 ...If I added right.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inspired by the podcast.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/09 09:45:04


 
   
Made in gb
Watches History Channel




London

There's nothing wrong with including Generals - its just that including anything better than Competent general tends to be counterproductive.

The loss of a Brilliant General or Strategist counts as a very serious hit against the break point of the army, and as soon as they enter into combat their ability to use the extra command and control that a Brilliant or Strategist General has evaporates as well.

So, the general rule (mwahaah) is limit yourself to Competent if you are going with Included Generals

In this specific list design it's also hard to see how a Brilliant General would ever be able to use his full command and control capacity with just 6 hoplites to shove forward

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/10 12:04:40


www.madaxeman.com
See more of this rubbish there 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

Sounds good. I think I was considering options when I might run 4 Spartans, plus Cav, or Peltasts. When I run a mixed force I think I might need more command points. I like to have options, and I believe I started with 4 Spartiates and went up to six just to see what that looked like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I can break the 6 spears into two seperate groups as I move if I find a need, and the top notch general should still be in control...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, say I am facing Cav, they will want no part of Elite spears...so as I push forward, they fall back, or if I am lucky they move away. Then I can break into two blocks of say three and turn into the center with one, and move into the back field with the other. By breaking into a shorter line, I can wheel faster to take advantage of what comes my way. The Centers orders were stand fast. When you see the flank get turned, advance in good order.

So the center advances as the elite spears tear into the flank, and the second block provides security, or hits the rear, or plunders the camp...just depends on what shows up. All of this would require good command and control, so I want to have that option available.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The orders to the Aetolians was "try to keep them busy...and don't die" They exist to provide flank protection for the center line, they do that best by threating flank attacks and shooting, not fighting.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/11 20:48:38


 
   
Made in gb
Watches History Channel




London

Yeah... but each block of spearmen will only ever need 1 pip to move forward once they start getting close to the enemy.

So even if you break your Spartiates into 2 groups, that command will only ever need 2 pips at most to move.

You are guaranteed to get that every turn even from an Ordinary general.

Using a Brilliant General guarantees you at least 3, and possibly up to 5 pips per turn... for a command that at-best can only ever expect to need/spend 2. Bascially you are spending points on command and control capability that your list is unable to ever use.


www.madaxeman.com
See more of this rubbish there 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

What if I need to break off into even smaller groups? Also don't I get some Initiative from him? I started out with Comp. Gen. because to be honest the Spartans were hard fighters, not deep thinkers. There is no sign of exelent generalship that comes to mind.
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

Try both options on table and see what happens. I have a feeling Madaxeman has the way of it though.

Mobility is not the Greek way....

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

Tell that to the Thurophoroi! I suspect in the end it is a "style" thing.
   
Made in gb
Watches History Channel




London

 Easy E wrote:
Try both options on table and see what happens. I have a feeling Madaxeman has the way of it though.

Mobility is not the Greek way....


Indeed. I fear we are veering into the territory of ;

"...if your plan requires you to have enough command and control to allow you to split your hoplites up into penny packets and move them all independently across the battlefield, that may well be an indication that you could have the wrong plan..."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 17:38:25


www.madaxeman.com
See more of this rubbish there 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

No plan survives contact with the enemy.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

Therefor victory depends on how you can respond to the destruction of your plans. For too many military disasters have occurred because the comanders chose to assume that all would go according to plan.
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

Then, put it on the table and post up the results. I am interested to see what you find out.

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

Yeah, though it will likely be using Tabletop on Steam. For the fore seeable anyway.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

OK, I believe I have found the "final" form to try out a Spartan army. (Classical period)

Spartans

HSpear, Elite, Armor Includes Comp Gen
HSpear, Elite, Armor x5

Thracian Merc. LH, Jav x2
Spartan Cav MC, Mediocre x2

Perioikoi
HSpear, Includes Comp Gen
HSpear, x5

Psiloi. LI, Bow, x4

Aetolian Allies

Comp Ally Gen

Javlinmen, x4
Psiloi, LI, Jav, x4

Now just need to rebase, and flock. And I can give it a test drive...or 6

Next will be Thebans I think.....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 01:01:06


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut



Portland,OR

First set up, before updates


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still having "issues" posting pix...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
only took about 10 trys ...
[Thumb - Spartapix 1.jpg]
Spartapix 1

This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2021/04/27 06:05:31


 
   
 
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