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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Rough Riders (Fast Attack, Power Rating 4)
Rough Rider: M 10", WS 4+, BS 4+, S3, T4, W2, A1, Ld 6, Sv 5+
Rider Sergeant: M 10", WS 4+, BS 4+, S3, T4, W2, A2, Ld 7, Sv 5+

This unit contains 1 Rider Sergeant and 3 Rough Riders. It can contain up to 4 additional Rough Riders (Power Rating +4) or up to 8 additional Rough Riders (Power Rating +8). Each model is armed with: laspistol; hunting lance; frag grenades; krak grenades. In addition, the entire unit must be armed with either roaring wheels, stomping feet, or trampling hooves. If the unit is armed with stomping feet, double its Power Rating.

Weapons
  • Dragoon lasgun: Range 24", Type Rapid Fire 1, S3, AP-0, D1, Abilities: If the target is within half range, add 1 to this weapon’s Strength and Damage characteristics.
  • Hunting lance: Range Melee, Type Melee, S+1, AP-2, D1, Abilities: Each time the bearer fights, add 1 to the Strength and Damage characteristics of this weapon if it made a charge move or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn.
  • Roaring wheels: Range Melee, Type Melee, S3, AP-0, D1, Abilities: Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.
  • Stomping feet: Range Melee, Type Melee, S5, AP-0, D2, Abilities: Each time the bearer fights, it makes 2 additional attacks with this weapon.
  • Trampling hooves: Range Melee, Type Melee, S4, AP-0, D1, Abilities: Each time the bearer fights, it makes 2 additional attacks with this weapon.

  • Wargear Options
  • Any model may replace their hunting lance with a dragoon lasgun, a chainsword, or an item from the Melee Weapons list.
  • For every 4 models in the unit, 1 Rough Rider may replace their hunting lance with an item from the Special Weapons list.
  • The Rider Sergeant may replace their laspistol with an item from the Ranged Weapons list.

  • Abilities
  • Mounted Infantry: If your army is Battle-forged, this unit is treated as INFANTRY for the purposes of any friendly Regimental Doctrines.
  • Flanking Manoeuvres: During deployment, you can set up this unit behind enemy lines instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is wholly within 6" of a battlefield edge and more than 9" away from any enemy models.
  • Beasts of Burden: If this unit is armed with Stomping Feet, add 1 to the Toughness and Wounds characteristics of models in this unit. However, it can only Advance D3".
  • Turbo-boost: If this unit is armed with Roaring Wheels, replace its CAVALRY keyword with the BIKER keyword. In addition, each time this unit Advances, do not make an Advance roll. Instead, until the end of the phase, add 10" to the Move characteristic of models in this unit.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, <REGIMENT>
  • Keywords: CAVALRY, ROUGH RIDERS


  • New Points Costs
  • Rough Rider: 13 points

  • Dragoon lasgun: 0 points
  • Hunting lance: 2 points
  • Roaring wheels: 0 points
  • Stomping feet: 15 points
  • Trampling hooves: 0 points


  • New Stratagem: Charge for the Guns! (2 Command Points)
    The reckless valour of the Imperium's Rough Riders is a thing of tragic legend.

    Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Charge phase when a ROUGH RIDERS unit from your army that is not within Engagement Range of an enemy unit is chosen as the target of a charge. That unit cannot fire Overwatch this phase, but it can immediately declare a charge against the charging unit as if it were your Charge phase; resolve its charge first, and if it is successful, the enemy's charge automatically fails.

    This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2021/04/10 16:38:09


     
       
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    What is the reasoning behind "Dragoon Volleys"? Why is a lasgun/plasmagun/meltagun more powerful when fired within half range?
    I think it is a bit problematic, because it makes some weapons a lot more potent. I mean S4, D2 lasguns, that can profit from FRFSRF... wow... EDIT: removed the comment on Plasmaguns, as it states just lasguns profit


    Beasts of Burden/Stomping feed also seems to be really really strong for 5 points... It drops a heavy bolter from needing 1.8 hits to kill a rough rider to 4.8 hits.

    Edit: also stomping feet has a pretty hefty CC profil for a 5 point upgrade...

    Just to go this through: 20 points I get
    S4, W2, 5+ with -1S -1D from any incomming attacks (shooting and CC), with 4 cc attacs S5, AP0, D2 and a lasgun that within 12'' shoots two shots at S4, AP0, D2 and can also profit from FRFSRF...
    I don't want to ruin the fun, but that should be worth more than 5 points. The doubling of CC damage alone, together with an increase in strength that doubles the wounding chance against Marines is already worth more in my opinion. As is the increase in defense profile.
    And the Dragoon Volleys make them one of the best shooty guard "infantry"

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/06 14:58:25


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    In My Lab

    Adding eight should be PR+8, not +4. As written, you spend 8 PR for 5-12 Rough Riders. (Nitpicky, I know, but it's there.)

    S5, AP-2 is fine for an "On The Charge" profile. D3 is not-especially for a model that's 15 points.

    And Stomping Feet are basically a no-brainer.

    For 20 points (assuming Stomping) you get way too much. For reference, it would take the following hits to kill ONE Rough Rider with Stomping Feet:

    18 Lasguns
    9 Bolters
    6 Stalker Bolters (the Heavy 1 Intercessor version)
    4.8 Heavy Bolters

    And, hell, a Krak Missile has less than even odds of killing one assuming it automatically hits! This is on a model that makes, at WS 4+...

    1 S5 AP-2 D3 attack on the charge, S3 D1 off the charge
    1 S3 AP0 D1 attack
    2 S5 AP0 D2 attacks

    That's a hefty chunk of damage on a durable as hell model!

    Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
       
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    You should also consider giving the sergeant an option to carry a melta-bomb or even a demolition charge on one of the riders
       
    Made in gb
    Regular Dakkanaut




     JNAProductions wrote:
    Adding eight should be PR+8, not +4. As written, you spend 8 PR for 5-12 Rough Riders. (Nitpicky, I know, but it's there.)
    Good catch! Fixed.

     JNAProductions wrote:
    S5, AP-2 is fine for an "On The Charge" profile. D3 is not-especially for a model that's 15 points.
    Yeah. I've swapped it to S4/AP-2/D1 vs S5/AP-2/D2; it's less of a massive charge-encouraging jump, which is a shame, but it keeps the verbiage simple, and D2 is a much bigger deal than it used to be.

     JNAProductions wrote:
    And Stomping Feet are basically a no-brainer.

    For 20 points (assuming Stomping) you get way too much. For reference, it would take the following hits to kill ONE Rough Rider with Stomping Feet:
    You're absolutely right, and this comes down to a typo; Stomping Feet are meant to be 15 points, not 5 points. Stomping Feet Rough Riders are less melee-killy than Ogryns (same against MEQ, worse against GEQ), with no Ripper Guns, and are exactly as durable, but have +4" Movement (before factoring in the D3" Advance) and Flanking Manoeuvres. They also count as Infantry and get Regimental Doctrines etc, which is a big potential boost.

    I considered dropping the "counts as Infantry" aspect for being overcomplicated, but it's mostly in there just because the game tends to forget CAVALRY is even a unit type, and I couldn't see any reason for them not to benefit from Regimental Doctrines, Grenadiers, Fight To The Death, etc. Might be worth removing the Voice of Command (and Vox Casters), though; Fix Bayonets does a lot for this unit.

    I've also removed chainswords; it was purely for model-fidelity, but there's no reason they couldn't just be an alternative to hunting lances, and I'd rather they stay cheaper than not, since they're Guard.

     Pyroalchi wrote:
    What is the reasoning behind "Dragoon Volleys"? Why is a lasgun/plasmagun/meltagun more powerful when fired within half range?
    I think it is a bit problematic, because it makes some weapons a lot more potent. I mean S4, D2 lasguns, that can profit from FRFSRF... wow... EDIT: removed the comment on Plasmaguns, as it states just lasguns profit
    The core idea here is that I like the image of mounted gunmen forming up with their lasguns for a devastating volley, as seen in artwork and lore. The issue is that S3 lasguns are never going to be worth it on a 13 point model, even one that's relatively durable, so they needed a buff to be worth it as an option. I played with giving them all "Bolter Discipline" for lasguns, since they can brace against their mount, but that encouraged playing constant keepaway with no actual increase in payoff, which would be dull; instead, it made more sense to buff their 12" fusillade, so that you'd ride in, form up, and let fly. Risk and reward. I toyed with Rapid Fire 2 instead of S4/D2, but the latter felt more in line with the Rough Rider "flank and sabotage" role... which might actually be a problem, if it's redundant with the Hunting Lance's high S/D.

    Originally, this was just a special model of lasgun with its own statline, but that invalidated the use of Voice of Command's FRFSRF; which I was trying to keep available. I'm considering ditching access to Voice of Command for being too strong in melee; if I do so, I'll ditch the Dragoon Volleys rule and replace it with a particular weapon.
       
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    Looks pretty good. I'd enjoy playing with/against it. Some thoughts:

    The dragoon lasgun doesn't quite sit right with me. Sitting on a horse doesn't seem like it should turn a lasgun into a D2 bolter. And if we explain it away by saying they're issued some sort of variant lasgun, it sort of begs the question, "Why aren't they giving these things to other elite forces then?" Also, they have a bit of preferred target overlap with the hunting lances that they compete against.

    As an alternative, how about making them normal lasguns with the exception that they can be fired after falling back? That brings their punch inline with normal lasguns and gives the unit a build for a softer-hitting harassment role. When you want to charge marines, you take the lance. When you want to tie up enemy guns by bouncing in and out of combat, you take the lasgun. Just a thought.

    The stompy feet might be just slightly overcomplicated. They're meant to represent riding some sort of big chonky beast like a rhino (the animal) or a triceratops or something, right? Maybe +1 Toughness and/or +1 Wounds to the base statline would be a cleaner way to represent that sort of thing?
       
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    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Looks pretty good. I'd enjoy playing with/against it. Some thoughts:

    The dragoon lasgun doesn't quite sit right with me. Sitting on a horse doesn't seem like it should turn a lasgun into a D2 bolter. And if we explain it away by saying they're issued some sort of variant lasgun, it sort of begs the question, "Why aren't they giving these things to other elite forces then?" Also, they have a bit of preferred target overlap with the hunting lances that they compete against.
    Might as well ask why hotshot lasguns aren't being issued to all Infantry, really. The idea is that the dragoon lasgun is a variant which requires the horse/bike/mukaali to brace against at close range, and probably requires extra training to properly employ.

    The point about target overlap is a good one, but I'm not sure if it's such a problem; it means that the Rough Riders have a singular preferred target (multi-wounds, armoured) but two different ways of delivering that punch (close range firepower, or melee charges). Dragoon lasguns are still worse than hunting lances at killing marines or vehicles (8 Riders = 2.66 (MEQ) or 0.88 (LEQ) wounds with lasguns, 4 (MEQ) or 2 (LEQ) wounds with hunting lances), they just trade that punch for a little bit more safety at range, especially when working with plasma etc. The fire-and-fall-back idea is an interesting one, though. Quite a different role, but definitely one to keep on the drawing board.

    Wyldhunt wrote:
    The stompy feet might be just slightly overcomplicated. They're meant to represent riding some sort of big chonky beast like a rhino (the animal) or a triceratops or something, right? Maybe +1 Toughness and/or +1 Wounds to the base statline would be a cleaner way to represent that sort of thing?
    Stomping feet are Mukaali, yeah; this datasheet folds together Death Korps bionic horses with regular horses, adds bikes, and uses stomping feet for Mukaali. A straight amendment to the base statline would probably be simpler, but I wanted to avoid that just from "gear"/an ability. Still, there are other abilities that work similarly, so I might as well.
       
    Made in de
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    Regarding the defense boost of the Stomping feet (which seem more fair at +15 points, thanks for the clarification), I see that you adjusted it to be +1 W and T which seems better in my opinion.

    Regarding the dragoon volleys: I see where you are comming from, still D2 on lasguns together with the ability to use FRFSRF seems to good (at least in my opinion, it is of course open for debate). One idea I would just like to throw in the ring: give them the option for two (hot-shot) laspistols and change "dragoon volleys" into "if the unit advances or falls back it can still fire its pistols"
    => they would not profit from FRFSRF, but could still use bring it down and the likes. Meanwhile they would still have two shots at 12'' (or 6'' with better AP with the hotshots) and be pretty mobile without loosing their shooting. Fluff wise I personally think it would be a nice representation of their adaption to Shooting while mounted. And Pistols seem to me better suited to cavalry than a full sized gun.


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     Pyroalchi wrote:
    Regarding the dragoon volleys: I see where you are comming from, still D2 on lasguns together with the ability to use FRFSRF seems to good (at least in my opinion, it is of course open for debate).
    I've actually removed access to Voice of Command (and the Vox-Caster, obviously) and made the "Dragoon Volleys" ability into a lasgun variant (so, no access to FRFSRF anyway). I'm not hugely convinced lasgun Riders would have been too strong, but Fix Bayonets! definitely would have made them an unhealthily powerful melee option compared to Ogryn, and Move! Move! Move! would have just been very silly. 20+2D6" movement in a turn, or a flat 40" movement for bikes; that's not a horse, that's a Valykrie.
       
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    Sorry, I missed that. Definitly interesting. Would be interesting je you could test this out with some buddies and tell us how it turned out

    ~5000 build and painted 
       
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    Right behind you.

    No lasguns or bikes really.

    You want Rough Riders? You do it right.

    You remove the <Regiment> tag, period, and you give them Auxilia. You give them a Huntmaster HQ option and a special Order on that Huntmaster, which only targets Rough Riders.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 13:26:04


     
       
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    London

    I like the new version very much. My only comment is that there isn't really an incentive to take the Trampling Hooves over the other options. I would restrict the Flanking Manoeuvres to units which have Trampling Hooves, as the other options already have other benefits.

       
    Made in gb
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     Kanluwen wrote:
    No lasguns or bikes really.
    Bike-mounted Rough Riders have been in the lore pretty much since Rough Riders were a thing, they just never had models. They're even a suggested conversion in the old IG codex, iirc. Similarly, lasgun-armed Rough Riders who act as scouts have always existed in lore; we were only limited to hunting lances on the tabletop because the only models were Attilan Rough Riders, who used lances.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    You want Rough Riders? You do it right.

    You remove the <Regiment> tag, period, and you give them Auxilia.
    I don't understand this suggestion, as Rough Riders aren't Auxilia in any way, shape or form. They are famously tied to particular regiments and homeworlds; Tallarn Desert Raiders, Vostroyan Hussars, Mordian Light Patrol, Death Riders of Krieg, Catachan Lizard Cavalry, Armageddon Storm Riders, and that's before getting into non-core Regiments like the Attilan Rough Riders or Savlar Chem-Riders.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    You give them a Huntmaster HQ option and a special Order on that Huntmaster, which only targets Rough Riders.
    A Tank Commander equivalent would certainly be a neat HQ addition. A Rough Rider with WS/BS 3+, 4 Wounds, 3 Attacks, a Refractor Field and a "Rider Orders" ability (so probably 35 points, ish?). For orders, probably...
  • From the Saddle!: The ordered unit can shoot this phase even if it Advanced in its Movement phase.
  • Ready Lances!: Instead of shooting this phase the ordered unit immediately declares a charge as if it were the Charge phase. It can do so even if it Fell Back in its Movement phase.
  • Cavalry, Brace!: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for all models in the ordered unit until the end of your turn.

  • It's not core to their role here, though, so I'm focusing on hashing the basic unit out.

     Valkyrie wrote:
    I like the new version very much. My only comment is that there isn't really an incentive to take the Trampling Hooves over the other options. I would restrict the Flanking Manoeuvres to units which have Trampling Hooves, as the other options already have other benefits.
    I did consider making Flanking a hooves-exclusive ability, but ultimately felt it was too core to the role and image of Rough Riders to remove. The intended incentive is one of melee capabilities; a bike and a horse/lizard cost the same, but while the bike moves 10/20" and the horse moves 10/11-16", the horse gives +2 S4 attacks, while the bike only offers +1 S3 attack.

    Comparing two units of 8 Rough Riders on the charge, the bike-riders get:
    8 Hunting Lance attacks (WS4+, S5 AP-2) = 2.66 unsaved vs GEQ, 1.77 unsaved vs MEQ (at D2)
    8 Roaring Wheel attacks (WS4+, S3 AP-0) = 1.33 unsaved vs GEQ, 0.44 unsaved vs MEQ
    Total = 4 dead GEQ, 2 dead MEQ

    While the horse-riders get:
    8 Hunting Lance attacks (WS4+, S5 AP-2) = 2.66 unsaved vs GEQ, 1.77 unsaved vs MEQ (at D2)
    16 Trampling Hooves attacks (WS4+, S4 AP-0) = 3.55 unsaved vs GEQ, 1.33 unsaved vs MEQ
    Total = 6 dead GEQ, 2.5 dead MEQ

    It's possible that margin isn't enough, and bikes need to be a bit slower or +1pt more expensive (I'd hesitate to make hooves any stronger; these are horses, after all).

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 15:25:30


     
       
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    Personally, I think the distinctions between wheels, hooves, and stompy feet are sufficient as-is. If I want more maneuverability but less punch, I go wheels. If I want more toughness and punch, I take stompy feet. If I don't want to pay 15 extra points and also don't want to weaken my punches, I stick with hooves.

    Mounted commander sounds like fun. You could probably make a platoon commander level one as well.
       
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    Right behind you.

    RevlidRas wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:
    No lasguns or bikes really.
    Bike-mounted Rough Riders have been in the lore pretty much since Rough Riders were a thing, they just never had models. They're even a suggested conversion in the old IG codex, iirc.

    Not in any IG codex I own. From the Doctrines book up to the 8E one, nothing talks about a "suggested conversion" in there that I can find nor are there any mention of "bike mounted Rough Riders" in the official lore that I've come across...but there are definitely mentions of bikers acting as scouts for the artillery+tankers in "Gunheads". The Cadian scouts there use Hornet and Blackshadow bikes.

    The most common suggested conversion that I saw from the GW team tended to be Empire knights or Bretonnian Mounted Yeomen. Once the plastic Pistoliers came out though, that became the de facto proxy suggestion from them.
    Similarly, lasgun-armed Rough Riders who act as scouts have always existed in lore; we were only limited to hunting lances on the tabletop because the only models were Attilan Rough Riders, who used lances.

    Well, it's also because the lore is that Rough Riders primarily come from feral worlds where cavalry are still a thing. The Doctrines book(2003) has them default with Laspistols+CCWs, with the option to buy Hunting Lances.
    The Cruddace book(2008) then gives them the HLs+a Laspistol or CCW, and then 2x Rough Riders can swap their Hunting Lances for a Special Weapon while the Sergeant can swap his laspistol for either a Power Weapon or a Plasma Pistol.
    The book after that gave them Hunting Lances, Laspistols, and CCWs while keeping everything else roughly the same.


     Kanluwen wrote:
    You want Rough Riders? You do it right.

    You remove the <Regiment> tag, period, and you give them Auxilia.
    I don't understand this suggestion, as Rough Riders aren't Auxilia in any way, shape or form. They are famously tied to particular regiments and homeworlds; Tallarn Desert Raiders, Vostroyan Hussars, Mordian Light Patrol, Death Riders of Krieg, Catachan Lizard Cavalry, Armageddon Storm Riders, and that's before getting into non-core Regiments like the Attilan Rough Riders or Savlar Chem-Riders.

    Then you don't understand what Rough Riders have been increasingly fluffed as.

    Things like the Death Riders, Vostroyan Hussars, and the Mordian Light Patrol were the exception not the rule. By and large, Rough Riders were Feral World elements that would be brought in at times and attached to a regimental structure.
    Tallarn Desert Raiders aren't Rough Riders either, btw, but a catch-all term for a specific kind of Tallarn regiment that happened to use cavalry(although even then, they used the laspistol/ccw and special weapons setup not the hunting lance) as a harassment element alongside of vehicles and armor.
       
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    Didn't the model for the Mukaali had a lance? When I give it a quick google search I found most of them with hunting lances...

    On the general note: Kanluwen, I respect that you have a strong opinion on how IG should function and how to achieve this. Nontheless I think there is nothing wrong with proposing rules for a unit in the proposed rules faction that don't fit your view of were it should go. A lot of people would like working rules for rough riders (be it with horses, bikes or whatever other mounts) and I agree with the OP that the rules presented here seem interesting.

    As mentioned: I would be really interested if someone could try those out in a friendly game or two and chat a bit of how it worked out. I think that is the best way to quickly see if they are too strong, too weak or if there is some blatant exploit that should be fixed.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 16:40:30


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    Right behind you.

    The Mukaali definitely did have lances, but that was kind of a "bwuh?" considering everything for that Taros book.

    Bluntly? This whole proposal, to me, feels less like a proposal and just listing things.

    Bikers wouldn't be zipping around with lances. We're not marines. The whole "dragoon" thing as well is counterintuitive, considering that dragoons were initially mounted infantry who would dismount to actually fight using longarms and then evolved to have roughly pistol analogues.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 17:00:47


     
       
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     Kanluwen wrote:
    Not in any IG codex I own. From the Doctrines book up to the 8E one, nothing talks about a "suggested conversion" in there that I can find nor are there any mention of "bike mounted Rough Riders" in the official lore that I've come across...but there are definitely mentions of bikers acting as scouts for the artillery+tankers in "Gunheads". The Cadian scouts there use Hornet and Blackshadow bikes.
    Don't know what to tell you, man. Guard bike-riders are in the lore, they had models waaay back, and they fit the WW1-WW2 aesthetic to a tee. I really don't understand the objection.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Well, it's also because the lore is that Rough Riders primarily come from feral worlds where cavalry are still a thing. The Doctrines book(2003) has them default with Laspistols+CCWs, with the option to buy Hunting Lances.
    Yes, and tanks primarily come from industrial worlds where mechanized armour is a thing, but a feral world regiment with Wilderness Survivors and Monster Hunters can still load up on Sentinels and Leman Russes, and they'll still be part of that regiment. Rough Riders are characteristic of feral worlds, but they're by no means exclusive to it; they're enough a part of the broader Astra Militarum playbook that literally every "core" Regiment other than Valhallans has canonical (and in some cases quite prominent) Rough Riders drawn from its native population and military culture, just as incorporated into its fighting doctrine as tanks or aircraft. Hell, even hunting lances vary from a giant taser goad to a sophisticated shaped plasma-charge to a melta-based lance-blowtorch to a literal krak grenade on a stick.

    Historical gear options are beside the point; it doesn't make much sense to say that Rough Riders can't use lasguns (despite canonically doing so) because they're all savage feral worlders (which they're not), but plasma guns are still okay?

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Then you don't understand what Rough Riders have been increasingly fluffed as.

    Things like the Death Riders, Vostroyan Hussars, and the Mordian Light Patrol were the exception not the rule. By and large, Rough Riders were Feral World elements that would be brought in at times and attached to a regimental structure.
    Tallarn Desert Raiders aren't Rough Riders either, btw, but a catch-all term for a specific kind of Tallarn regiment that happened to use cavalry(although even then, they used the laspistol/ccw and special weapons setup not the hunting lance) as a harassment element alongside of vehicles and armor.
    Alright, setting aside the condescension for a moment, let's address the practicalities here. Keeping the <REGIMENT> keyword has the benefit of allowing players to represent the most prominent and characteristic Rough Riders in the game, which - again - explicitly exist for all but one of the "core" Regiments, and plenty of others besides. That's good, it's a positive. Removing the <REGIMENT> keyword and making Rough Riders into a new kind of Auxilia has the benefit of... absolutely nothing, except to satisfy this increasingly strange insistence that basically all the Rough Riders worthy of note don't count, somehow, and they should all be total outsiders to your army.

    Here is official artwork of a Tallarn Rough Rider armed with a hunting lance, btw. I've already linked the Tallarn Mukaali Riders earlier in this thread. Both very much <TALLARN>, though you can also take them with chainswords or power swords if you'd prefer. You want to model your <CATACHAN> Rough Riders as Attilans seconded to the regiment instead of lizard-riding musclemen, more power to you; you can also model <KANAKI> Hellhounds as shiny Praetorian tanks seconded to a Feral World Regiment that "shouldn't" really have them, or model MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Scions as Cadian Kasrkin. That's entirely up to the player.

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 17:10:05


     
       
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    Right behind you.

    RevlidRas wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:
    Not in any IG codex I own. From the Doctrines book up to the 8E one, nothing talks about a "suggested conversion" in there that I can find nor are there any mention of "bike mounted Rough Riders" in the official lore that I've come across...but there are definitely mentions of bikers acting as scouts for the artillery+tankers in "Gunheads". The Cadian scouts there use Hornet and Blackshadow bikes.
    Don't know what to tell you, man. Guard bike-riders are in the lore, they had models waaay back, and they fit the WW1-WW2 aesthetic to a tee. I really don't understand the objection.

    You claimed that they were Rough Riders, not Bike Riders. That specifically says "Imperial Guard Bike Riders". You don't get to shift goalposts.

    There were Imperial Guard Landspeeders too. That doesn't mean there were Landspeeder Rough Riders.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Well, it's also because the lore is that Rough Riders primarily come from feral worlds where cavalry are still a thing. The Doctrines book(2003) has them default with Laspistols+CCWs, with the option to buy Hunting Lances.
    Yes, and tanks primarily come from industrial worlds where mechanized armour is a thing, but a feral world regiment with Wilderness Survivors and Monster Hunters can still load up on Sentinels and Leman Russes, and they'll still be part of that regiment. Rough Riders are characteristic of feral worlds, but they're by no means exclusive to it; they're enough a part of the broader Astra Militarum playbook that literally every "core" Regiment other than Valhallans has canonical (and in some cases quite prominent) Rough Riders drawn from its native population and military culture, just as incorporated into its fighting doctrine as tanks or aircraft. Hell, even hunting lances vary from a giant taser goad to a sophisticated shaped plasma-charge to a melta-based lance-blowtorch to a literal krak grenade on a stick.

    Nope, taser goad is a specific thing that the AdMech have these days.

    Just a FYI, the Vostroyan Hussars were specifically called out as "rare".

    Historical gear options are beside the point; it doesn't make much sense to say that Rough Riders can't use lasguns (despite canonically doing so) because they're all savage feral worlders (which they're not), but plasma guns are still okay?

    Cite a source where Rough Riders have used lasguns. I'm dying to know. My whole reasoning for not wanting lasguns is because the argument continually made for "why we need Rough Riders again" hinges upon "well, we need a melee unit!". Make them a melee unit or don't make them at all. Make them a Feral Auxilia. The Auxilia tag is criminally underused for the Guard. Between Conscripts, Rough Riders, Planetary Defence Force go-betweens? We have a whole slew of things that could fit in there and add some interesting and unique flavor for the Guard.

    You'll note that I never said one way or another about plasma guns. If I, personally, had my way? Plasma Guns would get put into the Heavy Weapons list for Guard.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Then you don't understand what Rough Riders have been increasingly fluffed as.

    Things like the Death Riders, Vostroyan Hussars, and the Mordian Light Patrol were the exception not the rule. By and large, Rough Riders were Feral World elements that would be brought in at times and attached to a regimental structure.
    Tallarn Desert Raiders aren't Rough Riders either, btw, but a catch-all term for a specific kind of Tallarn regiment that happened to use cavalry(although even then, they used the laspistol/ccw and special weapons setup not the hunting lance) as a harassment element alongside of vehicles and armor.
    Alright, setting aside the condescension for a moment, let's address the practicalities here. Keeping the <REGIMENT> keyword has the benefit of allowing players to represent the most prominent and characteristic Rough Riders in the game, which - again - explicitly exist for all but one of the "core" Regiments, and plenty of others besides. That's good, it's a positive. Removing the <REGIMENT> keyword and making Rough Riders into a new kind of Auxilia has the benefit of... absolutely nothing, except to satisfy this increasingly strange insistence that basically all the Rough Riders worthy of note don't count, somehow, and they should all be total outsiders to your army.

    Or, bear with me here...
    they could be units of note for those specific subfactions! We have rules for Death Riders after all. Nothing saying we can't have Catachan Devils, Cadian Kasrkin, Tallarn Mukaali Rough Riders, Attillan Rough Riders, etc.

    And frankly? There is nothing but upside to putting the basic Rough Rider unit in as Auxilia, because then we don't have yet more random cornercase garbage we need to balance <Regiment> traits around. We also have an opening then to do something interesting and unique with design+aesthetic and opening things up for a fantastic expansion of the Guard range. FFS, the literal reasoning for the Conscript Order special rule is so they could still take Orders...which then STILL posed a problem, because a 50/50 shot to get Ordered is still better when you're doing 30 Conscripts FRFSRF'ing in Spamhammer than wasting multiple Orders on Infantry Squads.

    Here is official artwork of a Tallarn Rough Rider armed with a hunting lance, btw. I've already linked the Tallarn Mukaali Riders earlier in this thread. Both very much <TALLARN>, though you can also take them with chainswords or power swords if you'd prefer. You want to model your <CATACHAN> Rough Riders as Attilans seconded to the regiment instead of lizard-riding musclemen, more power to you; you can also model <KANAKI> Hellhounds as shiny Praetorian tanks seconded to a Feral World Regiment that "shouldn't" really have them, or model MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Scions as Cadian Kasrkin. That's entirely up to the player.

    Yeah, and your 'base' Rough Riders have better stats than the Mukaali did too. All taking a Mukaali did was give you +1 Toughness, bringing you from 3 to 4. No extra Wound, no bonus Strength, nothing.

    By the way, those Tallarn Rough Riders? They came standard with the CCW+laspistol in their introduction from "The Taros Campaign". You had to buy the lance and the mount and it was 5ppm to upgrade each Rough Rider to a Mukaali and you replaced laspistol or CCW for a Hunting Lance at 3ppm.

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 18:14:19


     
       
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     Kanluwen wrote:
    Yeah, and your 'base' Rough Riders have better stats than the Mukaali did too. All taking a Mukaali did was give you +1 Toughness, bringing you from 3 to 4. No extra Wound, no bonus Strength, nothing.
    Didn't Marines have one wound back then? And a million other things were vastly different too?

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    Right behind you.

     JNAProductions wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:
    Yeah, and your 'base' Rough Riders have better stats than the Mukaali did too. All taking a Mukaali did was give you +1 Toughness, bringing you from 3 to 4. No extra Wound, no bonus Strength, nothing.
    Didn't Marines have one wound back then? And a million other things were vastly different too?

    Sure, but as a basic thing that's worth mentioning. The Mukaali did nothing to make them more fighty. They were just a bit tougher to wound, and then only because of their bulk. They retained Fleet of Hoof as well, meaning that they moved in both Movement and Shooting phases if they saw fit.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 18:35:06


     
       
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     Kanluwen wrote:
    You claimed that they were Rough Riders, not Bike Riders. That specifically says "Imperial Guard Bike Riders". You don't get to shift goalposts.
    Sure. Okay. There are no Rough Riders on bikes. There are just mounted Imperial Guard soldiers who ride on bikes instead of horses. Mea culpa.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Nope, taser goad is a specific thing that the AdMech have these days.
    A taser goad is a fancy shock prod, my guy. It is fundamentally not that special. There are taser-based hunting lances, power mauls that discharge electric bursts, a whole class of shock weapons in Necromunda. It is the same breed of magic zappy death stick. I don't even know why you felt this was worthy of comment.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Cite a source where Rough Riders have used lasguns. I'm dying to know.
    Here is a piece of official artwork clearly showing a lasgun on a Rough Rider.

    Here is another.

    Here is an excerpt from the White Dwarf article (#111) that originally introduced Rough Riders, describing their use of lasguns.

    Here are the original Rough Rider models, highlighted in that very same issue, of which at least three are quite clearly armed with lasguns.

    But by all means, keep dying on this hill.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    My whole reasoning for not wanting lasguns is because the argument continually made for "why we need Rough Riders again" hinges upon "well, we need a melee unit!". Make them a melee unit or don't make them at all.
    you know what my argument for rough riders is

    "Horses and bikes are really cool"

    "I would like those"

    there I solved the riddle for you

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Or, bear with me here...
    they could be units of note for those specific subfactions! We have rules for Death Riders after all. Nothing saying we can't have Catachan Devils, Cadian Kasrkin, Tallarn Mukaali Rough Riders, Attillan Rough Riders, etc.
    You're absolutely right, it makes much more sense to have the actual Rough Riders unit strictly represent "Some Dudes From Nowhere In Particular" (always a wildly popular addition to any army), and then create half a dozen separate different units to represent specific variations of "dude on horse" that actually fit individual armies. That's a good use of time and effort and ink.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Yeah, and your 'base' Rough Riders have better stats than the Mukaali did too. All taking a Mukaali did was give you +1 Toughness, bringing you from 3 to 4. No extra Wound, no bonus Strength, nothing.
    The Mukaali Riders have modern rules. They are freely available on the Games Workshop website. I will even save you the time of searching for them: here you go.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    By the way, those Tallarn Rough Riders? They came standard with the CCW+laspistol in their introduction from "The Taros Campaign". You had to buy the lance and the mount and it was 5ppm to upgrade each Rough Rider to a Mukaali and you replaced laspistol or CCW for a Hunting Lance at 3ppm.
    why in god's name do you think this is relevant or new information

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 20:38:25


     
       
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    Right behind you.

    This whole exchange is one of the reasons that I personally feel GW has been extremely cowardly with regards to 40k of late.

    So frigging what if lasguns were on Rough Riders back in nineteen eighty fricking nine? Eldar had Land Raiders back then, should they now? Tigurius was a Half-Eldar Ultramarine Librarian, should he be one now?

    Find me an official source within the past 20 years, detailing it as a thing. Not some random image search for "Rough Rider with Lasgun" and direct-linking it to the image with no context.
    Your first piece of art likely came from FFG's "Only War" RPG, but I don't have any of the books to check it...and it's worth mentioning that "Only War" and FFG's stuff also had a lot of weird random weapon setups that were extremely specialized.
    The second was from a White Dwarf, accompanying an article that detailed Xeno-Beasts. That specific art was representing something that used a Lizardman Carnosaur as the base for its conversion and was IIRC classified as a Monstrous Creature rather than just Cavalry.
    WD#111 was how long ago?

    You don't want Rough Riders to be auxilia, cool. I do.

    I do not even remotely see a path forward for the Imperial Guard at this point anyways, because we're stuck with a frigging millstone of nonsense because the people in charge are seemingly disinterested in making them an actual, functioning army rather than the NPC army of the Imperium.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 19:11:20


     
       
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     Kanluwen wrote:
    This whole exchange is one of the reasons that I personally feel GW has been extremely cowardly with regards to 40k of late.

    So frigging what if lasguns were on Rough Riders back in nineteen eighty fricking nine? Eldar had Land Raiders back then, should they now? Tigurius was a Half-Eldar Ultramarine Librarian, should he be one now?
    You ask me where Rough Riders have been shown using lasguns, I showed you lasguns. Rough Riders have gone basically unchanged since their introduction, so you really don't have a leg to stand on, here.

    You obviously realize that, too, which is why you've immediately pivoted from demanding to see receipts to whining about GW being "cowardly" and ranting about irrelevant trivia.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Find me an official source within the past 20 years, detailing it as a thing. Not some random image search for "Rough Rider with Lasgun" and direct-linking it to the image with no context.
    The two pieces of artwork are from a licensed 40k RPG (Only War: Hammer of the Emperor), which would have gone through a strict approvals process with GW, and from the White Dwarf Creature Features rule set (#291, which I hope isn't too venerable for your tastes) where it was specifically used to illustrate a large lizard-beast that it was suggested could be mounted with an Imperial Guard Rough Rider. The artwork is also very clearly a Rough Rider, unless you're arguing that the Imperial Guard soldier wielding a hunting lance and riding a steed into battle isn't a Rough Rider because the artwork was used adjacent to rules for a Carnosaur.

    Please, please realize what you are saying. You have reached the point of arguing that no mounted unit in the Imperial Guard could have ever used a rifle while riding a mount, despite being directly shown models, artwork, and lore all detailing this very thing happening, despite this very thing being a common military deployment in actual history, and despite the vastness and variety of the Imperial Guard dictating that this very thing happen by sheer law of averages. Why are you arguing this point?!

     Kanluwen wrote:
    You don't want Rough Riders to be auxilia, cool. I do.
    Then with the last dregs of patience left in my heart, may I politely suggest you go make your own thread for this very personal vision of Rough Riders, instead of trying to force your fanon on me?

     Kanluwen wrote:
    I do not even remotely see a path forward for the Imperial Guard at this point anyways, because we're stuck with a frigging millstone of nonsense because the people in charge are seemingly disinterested in making them an actual, functioning army rather than the NPC army of the Imperium.
    Really not the thread for this.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 20:13:28


     
       
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    Right behind you.

    And you started by saying that there were biker Rough Riders, floated some nebulous conversions in the books and I flatout said where I started getting into this game(Doctrines circa 2003) and the books I had for Guard. Nowhere did they have Lasguns or Bikers.

    Also, nice editing out the part where I literally make mention of where that sketch came from and why I might not consider it to be representative of Rough Riders.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 20:23:26


     
       
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     Kanluwen wrote:
    And you started by saying that there were biker Rough Riders, floated some nebulous conversions in the books and I flatout said where I started getting into this game(Doctrines circa 2003) and the books I had for Guard. Nowhere did they have Lasguns or Bikers.
    Right, so you were ignorant about early Rough Riders, and I've corrected that ignorance. Now you know, and the conversation can end here.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Also, nice editing out the part where I literally make mention of where that sketch came from.
    I went into more detail on the sources, since that was apparently a point of concern for you. Literally anyone can scroll up and read what you wrote. I have not unpersoned you, I am just trying to keep these responses relatively neat.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 20:26:12


     
       
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    Back on topic and the following is mainly regarded towards the proposal in the original rules:

    As I'm also a pro cavalry and always cobbeling wit kitbashes: what are your (RevlidRas) thoughts about an alternative loadout with 1 or 2 Hot-Shot Laspistols? I know they have only 6'' range and are most probably not worth switching out a lasgun or hunting lance, is purely because I like them and would like to someday kitbash some pistoleros on a mount. Do you see any obvious problems or exploits in your dataseet proposition if this was an equipment option?
    I'm asking because if I put something like thit together, I could see me using your idea as proposition for them. I also have some bikers in my to do pipeline, so I'm grateful for now having some potential rules for them to try out some day.

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    Right behind you.

    RevlidRas wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:
    And you started by saying that there were biker Rough Riders, floated some nebulous conversions in the books and I flatout said where I started getting into this game(Doctrines circa 2003) and the books I had for Guard. Nowhere did they have Lasguns or Bikers.
    Right, so you were ignorant about early Rough Riders, and I've corrected that ignorance. Now you know, and the conversation can end here.

    And you had the audacity to say I was condescending. Lol.

    I've been aware of Guard Bikers for a long time. But again:
    You claimed that GW publications had Guard Rough Riders on Bikes. You posted those Guard Bikers(literally called such!), and shifted the goalposts...then started generally just getting defensive of your idea which is fair enough.

    But once you start trying to say someone else is being "condescending" or implying they are ranting or just generally have no idea what they're talking about while throwing random stuff out there? That just makes you look ridiculous.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    Also, nice editing out the part where I literally make mention of where that sketch came from.
    I went into more detail on the sources, since that was apparently a point of concern for you. Literally anyone can scroll up and read what you wrote. I have not unpersoned you, I am just trying to keep these responses relatively neat.

    Since you don't seem to quite understand why I take offense to that:
    It's not "unpersoning" someone. It's a common tactic for someone to try to make someone else seem unreasonable or "wrong".

    Anyways, you want my take on Rough Riders? Here you go.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 21:07:03


     
       
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     Kanluwen wrote:
    And you had the audacity to say I was condescending. Lol.
    Your first post in this thread was to tell me, apropos of nothing, to "do Rough Riders right", which apparently involved tossing out most of my work to write what you wanted to write. You then went on to tell me I "didn't understand Rough Riders" - in retrospect, much funnier than you meant it to be, given your understanding of Rough Riders turned out to be total fanon - before launching on a very tedious recitation of defunct wargear options, semantic quibbling, and a frankly baffling crusade against lasguns.

    This tangent has been a total - and at times, actually quite directly insulting - waste of my time. Forgive me if I'm a little testy.

     Kanluwen wrote:
    You claimed that GW publications had Guard Rough Riders on Bikes. You posted those Guard Bikers(literally called such!), and shifted the goalposts...then started generally just getting defensive of your idea which is fair enough.
    I freely admit I misremembered the name. That's not something I've bothered to deny, so it's a little odd that you're clinging to it so hard. I just regard "Guard Bikers" and "Guard Rough Riders On Bikes" as interchangeable concepts, for what should be fairly obvious reasons.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 21:33:38


     
       
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    Right behind you.

    You can regard them as such, but that doesn't make it right. You think it's "odd" that I'm clinging to it so hard while trying to lambast some of my comments as fanon while posting what is supposedly Only War art from a 40k wiki and some catalog pages from the late 80s and early 90s...which in and of itself says a lot about the quality of the arguments you've got supporting your stance.

    Frankly? I'll keep telling you that you don't understand Rough Riders as GW seemed to want them to be given that you're trying to give them lasguns and have generally just made a convoluted mess of a simple "it's a guy with a stick, a pistol, and something else to hit someone with on a horse" unit concept all over the fact that you're trying to fit a unit that traditionally was considered an auxiliary element into the main regiment and as such just generally making a mess of things.

    You want Xeno mounts? Then make a unit of Xeno mounted Rough Riders. It doesn't work as a simple upgrade. That's the problem that Guard have had since the demise of the frigging Doctrines book where the army is effectively "Whose Line Is It Anyways?" where all the upgrades are fake and the profiles don't really matter.

    To be 100% fair to you though:
    I probably should have posted a bit more in my first post in the thread...but I didn't really see anything more that needed to be said. The initial post looked okay beyond the <Regiment>, Bikes, and Lasguns.

    But since you seem to be less interested in anything beyond your own "fanon"(Vostroyan Hussars, for example, are considered a rarity not a signature unit) of every Regiment ever having everything like it's still 2/3E? That's cool for you I guess!

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 21:53:00


     
       
     
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