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Made in us
Been Around the Block





Storm shields cost 4 points. 4 points for a 2+/4++ is silly.

Storm shields on terminators are worse.

Proposed Rule: Storm shields should cost 5 points and you shouldn't be able to go below 2+ armor (I know you can't technically, but I mean in the sense of negating 1 ap).

   
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storm shields should cost 4 points on a 1 wound model with a 3+ save.

Marines however went up to 2 wounds each making the storm shield better than it needs to be.


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 Eihnlazer wrote:
storm shields should cost 4 points on a 1 wound model with a 3+ save.

Marines however went up to 2 wounds each making the storm shield better than it needs to be.



Yes, this.
   
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They were 2 pts in 8th, hilariously undercosted so they got spammed, especially in DW. Because they provide the most value when they are not spammed the question is how good should they be? Should the question be "do I take a storm shield?" or "do I take more than two stormshields?" I think storm shield spam armies should still be good, it's not fair to completely run people over with a pts change.

Being weak to AP-1/-2 (-2/-3 for Termies) is already quite a downside and Termis don't benefit against AP-. Storm shields help a lot with a non-issue and little where it actually counts in an edition where special weapons are cheap. AM pay 5 for plasma and multi-meltas only cost 10 more than a HB on an Attack Bike. Comparing 8th and 9th, a storm shield Veteran is 50% more vulnerable to overcharged plasma and costs 28 instead of 18. They are four times as durable against AP- D1 though.

A Terminator costs only 33 pts, has a power weapon and an extra wound, but only 5++ and M5" and deep strike instead of 4++ and 6", that seems like a steal compared to a shielded DW Vet. Why give up a power sword or DW SB to upgrade a 5++ to a 4++? Storm shields on Termis are good but I am not convinced they are too good, look at Jordan Beresford's 1st Place Western Aus Ironman DA list, half lightning claws, half shields on the Termis.

I would argue that when taken in batches of 5 SS should cost 3 pts per model and 4 pts otherwise Vanguard Vets with shields and Deathwatch aren't winning tournaments, where is all of this coming from?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/04/11 07:38:14


 
   
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As a Custodes player, I like to believe we pay a severely baked in cost for our ability to even get our stormshield. It lessens us to a pistol weapon with an attached rather weak (Subject to change if Power Sword buffs carry over) melee weapon. I would welcome SS costing more, but I would rather the units carrying them cost more, than the item itself.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As a Custodes player, I like to believe we pay a severely baked in cost for our ability to even get our stormshield. It lessens us to a pistol weapon with an attached rather weak (Subject to change if Power Sword buffs carry over) melee weapon. I would welcome SS costing more, but I would rather the units carrying them cost more, than the item itself.

Why?
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
They were 2 pts in 8th, hilariously undercosted so they got spammed, especially in DW. Because they provide the most value when they are not spammed the question is how good should they be? Should the question be "do I take a storm shield?" or "do I take more than two stormshields?" I think storm shield spam armies should still be good, it's not fair to completely run people over with a pts change.

Being weak to AP-1/-2 (-2/-3 for Termies) is already quite a downside and Termis don't benefit against AP-. Storm shields help a lot with a non-issue and little where it actually counts in an edition where special weapons are cheap. AM pay 5 for plasma and multi-meltas only cost 10 more than a HB on an Attack Bike. Comparing 8th and 9th, a storm shield Veteran is 50% more vulnerable to overcharged plasma and costs 28 instead of 18. They are four times as durable against AP- D1 though.

A Terminator costs only 33 pts, has a power weapon and an extra wound, but only 5++ and M5" and deep strike instead of 4++ and 6", that seems like a steal compared to a shielded DW Vet. Why give up a power sword or DW SB to upgrade a 5++ to a 4++? Storm shields on Termis are good but I am not convinced they are too good, look at Jordan Beresford's 1st Place Western Aus Ironman DA list, half lightning claws, half shields on the Termis.

I would argue that when taken in batches of 5 SS should cost 3 pts per model and 4 pts otherwise Vanguard Vets with shields and Deathwatch aren't winning tournaments, where is all of this coming from?


Garry Sacco, Jonathan Sleigh, Ben Cherwien, Johan Nicolsaisen, Jaime Paris, Jordan Beresford, Niels Jonsson, Daniel Hesserberg, Jack Plant, Baz Croucher and John Lennon all came in top 3 in various 9e tournaments using some variation of multiple storm shield units. There's another like 6 Space Wolf players that are also using storm shields with Wolf Guard or Wulfen, but I didn't feel like writing them all down. To be intellectually honest, a few of these are just running bladeguard veterans, but I still think bladeguard veterans are busted right now. The storm shield is baked into the unit, and I don't think the price of the unit reflects the value of the the thing.

If storm shields were balanced, they wouldn't be in over half of the Space Marines in the top 3 of competitive tournaments.

Bladguard veterans, Vanguard Veterans, Wolf Guard, Wulfen and Death Wing Terminators with storm shields are being used A LOT in competitive play.

For virtually every Space Marine army, the anti-tank being brought was either the 5 units above, or attack-bikes with multi meltas or eradicators. That's it.

It's boring to play against. I want to play against someone using the primaris tanks, land speeders or the servo-turret, but no one's bringing them because why would you when, for the same price, you can run a unit of 10 veterans up the board with power fists and shields?

It pops up so much that you have to build around it. Most of the Ork lists that are doing well, and there's not a lot, are bringing Smasha Gunz, killsawz or Burna Bombers. Orks aren't bringing those for fun, they're bringing them because that's like our only good options against 2+/4++ space marines with multiple wounds.


This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/04/11 20:19:44


 
   
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TWC and Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leaders already pay 5 and Bladeguard don't get hit by either of your suggestions, Bladeguard probably need a 3 pt nerf, 1 is too light, 5 too severe, agree?

I don't think 50% of SM players using storm shields means they are busted, I think lightning claws showing up proves they are not. Ever since I started lightning claws were the exception not the rule, I think it is good that is still the case, I don't want anybody to rip apart old TH SS minis.

Tournament missions reward tough melee units, it is natural SS show up. It's unfair to expect your opponent to bring Gladiators, they suck compared to everything. MM AB and Erads are another issue.

Orks have Killa Kans, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, bubble chukkas, Bonebreakas, Tankbustas and Lootas that could take out SS models, although Lootas woulnd't work against Termis. The issue seems to be Ork internal pts imbalance, not SM.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
TWC and Wolf Guard Terminator Pack Leaders already pay 5 and Bladeguard don't get hit by either of your suggestions, Bladeguard probably need a 3 pt nerf, 1 is too light, 5 too severe, agree?

I don't think 50% of SM players using storm shields means they are busted, I think lightning claws showing up proves they are not. Ever since I started lightning claws were the exception not the rule, I think it is good that is still the case, I don't want anybody to rip apart old TH SS minis.

Tournament missions reward tough melee units, it is natural SS show up. It's unfair to expect your opponent to bring Gladiators, they suck compared to everything. MM AB and Erads are another issue.

Orks have Killa Kans, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, bubble chukkas, Bonebreakas, Tankbustas and Lootas that could take out SS models, although Lootas woulnd't work against Termis. The issue seems to be Ork internal pts imbalance, not SM.


"It's unfair to expect your opponent to bring Gladiators, they suck compared to everything....The issue seems to be Ork internal pts imbalance, not SM." You're contradicting yourself. If Vanguard Veterans costed more, and Gladiators costed less, you'd see more Gladiators pop up. There is a points imbalance between gladiators and veterans: veterans are more point efficient than gladiators. By a lot.

Look at the tournament lists: https://bloodofkittens.com/9th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

Every single list in 2021, and I mean every single one, is the same: it's highly durable infantry with storm shields and multi-melta bikes. 10 out of 12 Space Marine lists brought some variation of storm shield. That's 84% of lists. 84% of lists bring units with storm shields. It's no where close to 50%. And the ones that didn't take storm shields still brought terminators. The only vehicles that popped up were contemptor dreadnoughts and raven wing land speeders, and you know the land speeders were only brought for the -1 to hit aura.

There is something wrong with the points balance of Space Marines if 84% of the lists are running storm shields, but only 16% are running vehicles.

And I think every single non-Space Wolf list brought the melta bikes, but again, that's a whole other barrel of stupid.

I'm not advocating for nerfing Space Marines. I'm not complaining about Space Marines. Space Marine vehicles need to have a place in the meta, and the only way for that to happen is if storm shields take a hit, because why take a 16 wound vehicle with a 3+ save when you can take 20 wounds of infantry with a 2+/4++?

Whether people like it nor not, SMs are the most popular faction, and they control the meta. If the meta is elite infantry and bikes, then other armies have to counter elite infantry and bikes, and that's boring. That leads to smash gun spam. Orks wouldn't take as many smasha guns if Space marines actually took vehicles. If Space Marines took vehicles, I'd probably be taking bikes or tankbustas, but they don't so I don't. Orks is just an example, but the point is the same for every other army, even Space Marines. You know what's really good at killing bikes and vanguard vets? Bikes and vanguard vets. It's a circle jerk.

I've got friends who are quitting tabletop until a points change happens, and that's silly. They're just focusing on painting and hobbying right now.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 02:45:13


 
   
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Imperials need their storm shields to keep safe from that imeprial melta

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


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Gladiators need a buff, it doesn't matter whether you nerf storm shields to the moon, nobody is going to win any tournaments with a list featuring multiple Gladiators. People will take regular Terminators and when you nerf them they will take Centurions...

The thing I brought up with Orks was only about being forced into just a few choices, yes you need some kind of units that can effectively deal with the meta SM units, but the reason you only have two units to choose from is because of the points costs of Orks.

I did not know Vanguard Veterans were so popular. I think part of what makes storm shields a must on them is that jump packs are a must, if you take them on foot then they become cheaper and it becomes less worthwhile to bother with upgrading their durability.

My idea was to increase jump pack cost from 3 to 5 and reduce base cost from 19 to 18. But that would still mean shields were still mandatory, at least on the jump pack ones. I think I am convinced that storm shields should cost 5 points on Vanguard Veterans, but what about Deathwatch?

I am sorry when you said over half I thought you meant around 50% of lists, more than 75% does seem like too much. I agree that they are too cheap on some units, at the very least TWC and I agree that Bladeguard Veterans need a nerf. But one of the lists you linked to had all tactical Terminator Squads, I think Terminators, in general, are just really good. It seems like the different types of Terminators are pretty balanced against each other and removal of the 1+ Sv would upset that.

How about making storm shields cost 2 pts and thunder hammers 8 pts for Wolf Guard Terminators? I don't see any Wulfen units, is that personal experience? I thought Wulfen were bad after their rework. Wulfen already pay 16 points for the TH SS combo, reducing their base cost would make TH SS more pricy relatively, do you think TH SS should cost more than 16?

Argive is right Eradicators and AB MM totally need nerfs, dark lances and fusion pistols are also scary if you want to be more serious.
   
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Luton, England

Storm shield are very good, there's no deigning that.

Too good, I'm not so sure there. The reason that marines are spamming them is because they want/need the durability buff.

Marines used to be durable due to their 3+ armour save but that became much less useful in 8th due to the changes to how AP worked and in 9th edition has become even less durable due to the increase in AP on so many factions.
- other marines get extra AP on certain weapons every turn.
- necrons have basic troop weapons with ap -2.
Drukhari have had an extra ap added to most of their melee weapons along with an extra attack everywhere.

Combine this with the increased cost for the extra wound (a good move) and then changing a load of weapons to damage 2 means that marines really struggle with durability against newer codex's.

If you are playing with an 8th edition book then the situation will look very different. I play marines but also daemons/guard/CSM/custodes/greyknights and I know that marines seem really good when playing against the older codex but are far more balanced (perhaps even average) against the newer book who have had their weapons brought in line with the 9th edition durability metric.


Marine vehicles are a different issue entirely, you're not seeing any because they are nearly universally very poor.
Other than dreads with their built in damage reduction and decent combat ability all marine vehicle suffer from being pretty hard to manoeuvre around modern terrain, less that useless in combat and are all woefully unsurvivable for their cost.

This last point is the reason you just will not see any marine vehicles.
Antitank weapons in 9th have gotten a huge boost in deadlyness - from melta going to D6+2 and lots of xeno weapons going from D6 damage to D3+3, to loads of weapons getting a boost to 2 damage and getting more AP.

Marine vehicle have the basic statline of T7, 3+ with around 11 wounds - this just doesn't cut it against anything and they have no other durability bonuses to fall back on. When your choices are 11 wounds of easy to kill vehicle or 10-20 wounds of similar (or better) durability wounds of infantry who can do actions, aren't as susceptible to multi-damage weaponry and can utilise terrain its really a no brainer.

Vehicle (especially imperial ones) need a boost related to their keyword, I'm not sure what but they need something. Bringing therir points down is tricky because if they get too low then they become spammable to the point of saturation where they can't be dealt with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 08:18:35


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I agree with everything you both said.

There's certainly a truth in the fact that Space Marines need the 2+ save to counter all the extra ap everyone gets these days.

But it also creates the problem of any weapon or unit without ap is devalued with so many 2+ saves running around the board. A lot of guard's anti infantry (las-guns, punishers, mortars, etc) doesn't have even have ap. And with the 1+ saves on termies, even heavy bolters, which should be decent at clearing marines, has to eat through a 2+ save.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 11:35:25


 
   
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Italy

cjmate8 wrote:
I agree with everything you both said.

There's certainly a truth in the fact that Space Marines need the 2+ save to counter all the extra ap everyone gets these days.

But it also creates the problem of any weapon or unit without ap is devalued.




Yeah, it's the reason why units like Aggressors are considered meh if not even garbage by many competitive SM players and then they scream about sisters, slaanesh, harlequins or ork greentides to be OP. Massed S4 ap- are not useful against marines but they can be devastating about many other factions, including most of top rated ones.

Of course if everyone still tailors against marines those kind of weapons look useless. But in fact they aren't.

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 vict0988 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
As a Custodes player, I like to believe we pay a severely baked in cost for our ability to even get our stormshield. It lessens us to a pistol weapon with an attached rather weak (Subject to change if Power Sword buffs carry over) melee weapon. I would welcome SS costing more, but I would rather the units carrying them cost more, than the item itself.

Why?


Can you expand on "why?"? I am willing to engage, but I am not sure which part you are confused by?

Custodes pay a high ppm tax for being custodes. Our cheapest model is just over 50 points. Unless you are counting Sisters, which are completely irrelevant. The units in the game which seem to be spamming SS and TH are Terminators or DW Terminators to be more specific. Are they are major problem in the Meta? No. But they are practically impossible to move as objective holders, and they cost a lot less than Custodes, while basically having a slightly better Custodes Statline for attacking. If there were more cost associated with the units that could take SS that would go a long way to preventing their spammable nature. Then again, I see nothing to suggest they are being spammed. DW lists aren't even in the top 5 currently, unless my meta tracker is too old.
   
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Why nerf the models regardless of whether they take storm shields if only storm shields are the problem? Why not increase the cost of storm shields, that should at the very least prevent spam as much and probably more as people take the options that are not storm shields.
   
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Because SS are not the problem. It's the spammable units carrying them that swing S8 THs and have constant on Transhuman, and are DSing on turn 2 with no cost baked in. The problem is not Custodes Troops with 150ppu. It's not any of the other SS units in the game that is being broken. It's literally one faction, or sub faction, DW Terminators.
   
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The stormshield is definitely good, especially in a game where durability in centerfield matters. I would not object to a points bump for them, and an associated bump to Bladeguard too. They need to be at a points level where you are taking a hit if you equip the whole squad that way, but not to much where you don't mind adding in a few here or there. They did increase for my Deathwatch, which has already resulted in me dropping the number I take in a kill team. So, they are not too far off.
   
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nah, i think they're fine. SM vehicles just need a buff.

they're only 4pts but you almost always give up some other weapon to get them.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

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Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

Weren't we already crying for DW Terminators some time ago, but we may bed on to the point where they're not so good universally good (assault bikes are better and spammed more for example)?

Embrace the codex creep: you can't evaluate a 9th unit with 8th lens. I personally despise the codex creep, but it's here, even stronger than ever
   
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 Cybtroll wrote:
Weren't we already crying for DW Terminators some time ago, but we may bed on to the point where they're not so good universally good (assault bikes are better and spammed more for example)?

Embrace the codex creep: you can't evaluate a 9th unit with 8th lens. I personally despise the codex creep, but it's here, even stronger than ever


I mean again, people keep claiming this but of the top 5 armies only one has a 9th codex, and a few of the top armies even have a really early-8th codex.

There is one single 9th ed codex pulling over a 55% wr right now, and its the first month after it was released (and all of the 9th codexes have seen a spike in wr the first month and then dropped back down).

Point to a thing and say "power creep" all you want, but until you actually demonstrate 9th codexes are dominating in tournaments over 8th codexes you're just talking out your ass.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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You mean during the global pandemic that's completely nullified the wargaming scene, so there is no established meta?
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because SS are not the problem. It's the spammable units carrying them that swing S8 THs and have constant on Transhuman, and are DSing on turn 2 with no cost baked in. The problem is not Custodes Troops with 150ppu. It's not any of the other SS units in the game that is being broken. It's literally one faction, or sub faction, DW Terminators.


You can't transhuman Vanguard Veterans. They're not Primaris.
   
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Luton, England

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You mean during the global pandemic that's completely nullified the wargaming scene, so there is no established meta?


Covid may well have shut down your local meta (it has mine as well) but many places in the world have managed to stay on top of the pandemic and have been able to hold regular tournaments. Australia is the best example and has a thriving national meta from which data can be taken and analysed.

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Ok, you are right there are outliers, but to say AU suddenly represents the META is to prove my point. It is an extremely small sub section of the entire meta. And you can't just say I HAVE META becuase you have 2 quarters of less then 5% of the meta base actually playing the game. Based off that logicI can watch one single sport match and declare one soccer team overpowered, because they destroyed their opponent 3-0. They are one team among hundreds. Australia is just one part, it is not THE META. Covid has essentially wiped out having a Meta for 2021 and 2020.
   
 
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