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Made in us
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I've played about 50 games of 9e since it came out, and I'm starting to feel like the obscuring terrain has turned it into a game of chicken.

A lot of my games have been hiding everything behind obscuring, wait or force your opponent to come out by contesting no-man-land objectives, then come out and blow them up with everything in one turn.

Anyone else feel it?
   
Made in gb
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Bath

cjmate8 wrote:
I've played about 50 games of 9e since it came out, and I'm starting to feel like the obscuring terrain has turned it into a game of chicken.

A lot of my games have been hiding everything behind obscuring, wait or force your opponent to come out by contesting no-man-land objectives, then come out and blow them up with everything in one turn.

Anyone else feel it?


it sounds very much like the oft heard compliant that the game is too lethal. the game seems to swing on the first player to mess up or expose themselves.

I dont have a real answer to it, as my own 9th ed experience is limited to a pair of 500pts games, but even in that, the game was basically decided by a single melee phase in both cases. Both armies were melee armies and it was pretty much "charging side wins".

the existance of midfield objectives and progressive scoring does at least force both players to come out and fight, otherwise it would be two gunlines staring at each other with mirrors over cover, and Non LOS weapons would be king, or 4 turns of sulking followed by a 1 turn orgy of point capping.


i would like to think the existance of deep strike, infiltration, etc would allow for some shenanigans to upset this game of chicken, but you seem to be right, many armies can focus enough killing power on a given target they can delete anything they set their minds to.

I

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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I don't.

You may need a more dynamic list or more brute force ( or durability ) along with a plan to push further into their territory dependingon secondaries.

Also if someone is getting tabled in one turn something is wrong.

   
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It started out like that for me, until I realized every competitive opponent was outlasting or defanging my alpha strike and winning because they had a long term game plan.

Army wide turn 2 alpha strike was for an edition with 20cp, pitiful cover rules, soup combos and missions you could just score at the end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
.

I dont have a real answer to it, as my own 9th ed experience is limited to a pair of 500pts games, but even in that

I


Lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/11 14:31:19


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-the_scotsman"

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cjmate8 wrote:
I've played about 50 games of 9e since it came out, and I'm starting to feel like the obscuring terrain has turned it into a game of chicken.

A lot of my games have been hiding everything behind obscuring, wait or force your opponent to come out by contesting no-man-land objectives, then come out and blow them up with everything in one turn.

Anyone else feel it?


You need more terrain and change how you are playing then. I have many games in 9th too, vs Quins, BA, DA, DG, Custodes, AdMech, etc... with my DE I have never been actually tabled it was close but I also have won more than i have lost. Sure i lose a couple units turn 1, but they are units I want to lose like Transports, or kabals.

This sounds like your table is not set up properly, make sure to not have huge fire lanes, also make sure there are not parts of the DZ that can see more than 2 Objectives without having to move, if you can sit and shoot at 2-3 objectives that is a bad thing.

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 Amishprn86 wrote:
cjmate8 wrote:
I've played about 50 games of 9e since it came out, and I'm starting to feel like the obscuring terrain has turned it into a game of chicken.

A lot of my games have been hiding everything behind obscuring, wait or force your opponent to come out by contesting no-man-land objectives, then come out and blow them up with everything in one turn.

Anyone else feel it?


You need more terrain and change how you are playing then. I have many games in 9th too, vs Quins, BA, DA, DG, Custodes, AdMech, etc... with my DE I have never been actually tabled it was close but I also have won more than i have lost. Sure i lose a couple units turn 1, but they are units I want to lose like Transports, or kabals.

This sounds like your table is not set up properly, make sure to not have huge fire lanes, also make sure there are not parts of the DZ that can see more than 2 Objectives without having to move, if you can sit and shoot at 2-3 objectives that is a bad thing.


i think you might have misunderstood what he posted. he said his games tend to get decided "in one turn", not "in turn one", ie, as soon as he or his opponent try to take the centre objectives, they suffer game deciding losses in a single turn of fire/melee.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/11 15:24:16


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

cjmate8 wrote:
I've played about 50 games of 9e since it came out, and I'm starting to feel like the obscuring terrain has turned it into a game of chicken.

A lot of my games have been hiding everything behind obscuring, wait or force your opponent to come out by contesting no-man-land objectives, then come out and blow them up with everything in one turn.

Anyone else feel it?


At risk of saying that this is a feature and not a bug, imagine what your games would be like without the Obscuring Terrain? With the Obscuring Terrain imagine what your games would be like without those mid-field Objectives?

At least the Obscuring Terrain mitigates turn 1 shooting alpha strikes while the mid-field Objectives and progressive scoring provide an imperative to get out of your deployment zone. Units with durability and mobility are very important in 9th.

But yes, there is that feeling of sticking your neck out!


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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





So terrain actually influencing the game is a bad thing? I'm kind of confused here. No-man's land is supposed to be hard to control and should be dangerous to take and hold.
Also, if the board you're using has only obscuring terrain I would say that is a bad board to play on. The board should be maybe 30-35% terrain then about half of that should be obscuring IMO.
   
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 Amishprn86 wrote:
cjmate8 wrote:
I've played about 50 games of 9e since it came out, and I'm starting to feel like the obscuring terrain has turned it into a game of chicken.

A lot of my games have been hiding everything behind obscuring, wait or force your opponent to come out by contesting no-man-land objectives, then come out and blow them up with everything in one turn.

Anyone else feel it?


You need more terrain and change how you are playing then. I have many games in 9th too, vs Quins, BA, DA, DG, Custodes, AdMech, etc... with my DE I have never been actually tabled it was close but I also have won more than i have lost. Sure i lose a couple units turn 1, but they are units I want to lose like Transports, or kabals.

This sounds like your table is not set up properly, make sure to not have huge fire lanes, also make sure there are not parts of the DZ that can see more than 2 Objectives without having to move, if you can sit and shoot at 2-3 objectives that is a bad thing.


Reading what was written, it sounds like the opposite- too much obscuring terrain, if anything. armies shouldn't be able to hide -everything- until they decide to make an objective run.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





So, like... He's hidden behind terrain, and you're hidden behind terrain... and then one of you moves ALL of your units out of hiding, and then he shoots them all?

So, instead of moving ALL your units out, could you move ONE unit out? Then he moves out to shoot that unit, then you move out to shoot the shooter?

Game size is a factor, but in reading these posts as often as I do, I know MOST of Dakka is playing competitive Strikeforce level games.
   
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9th is mostly about trading. It's not really a game of chicken, because if you don't come out, you lose. You have to come out, and what comes out typically gets annihilated, but it also gets you points. So the game becomes about feeding your army to your opponent in return for points more efficiently than they feed their army to yours in return for points.

Most competitive lists at the moment either play up to this by trading super efficiently - Sisters are a prime example of this, Drukhari are another example - or by putting so much durability on something that it actually *doesn't* get annihilated immediately - think that block of DW terminators with all the buffs, that can sit there taking it from the entire opposing army and not die as long as it's buffed up.
   
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Why not field some artillery?... oh wait, most rosters still lack decent out of sight artillery in the 40'000 years after...

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Sounds like real life combat to me.

Seek cover, use Concealment, make your opponent do something they don't want to do....

All hallmarks of how you be successful & don't die engaging the enemy.
   
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This is entirely a product of the turn system. If it was alternating activation this wouldn't be nearly as bad.
   
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Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds like real life combat to me.

Seek cover, use Concealment, make your opponent do something they don't want to do....

All hallmarks of how you be successful & don't die engaging the enemy.


Well, not really. Real combat isn't about feeding your forces into the enemy meat grinder like sacrificial lambs for the sake of standing on a particular point for a few minutes before they get blasted to pieces, with the winner determined by who suicided their army into the other more efficiently. It also doesn't arbitrarily end after 5 rounds, even if one force is still 90% intact and the other is completely destroyed, with the completely destroyed force labeled the winner if it stood on said points longer during the 5 rounds while being completely gunned down to a man.

I mean you can come up with hypotheticals where there might be limited time-frames and where the force that's wiped to a man might still be the "victor" in the broader scheme of a war, but it doesn't represent the vast majority of engagements.

40k is far too deadly a game to ever really represent real combat. If 50-90% of combatants died or were seriously injured in every battle, military history would look extremely different.





   
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Ok boss.

No sane military Commander would do any of 40k in the real world.

In 40k you just care very little about how much is alive afterward, which makes you more risky and flippant with the "person"power you have at your (garbage)disposal.

I wonder how people would play the game if every time a model/unit died you no longer had that model?

Deploying where you can't be shot at is important due to the fact that YOURE NOT GETTING SHOT AT.
Maneuvering your forces to where they would be most effective.
Taking an action that requires your opponent to respond whether they want to or not...

Yeah totally not like real combat.

   
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Racerguy180 wrote:
Sounds like real life combat to me.


Racerguy180 wrote:

No sane military Commander would do any of 40k in the real world.


"Ok boss," indeed. But I don't want to argue about irrelevant stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/11 18:33:40


 
   
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WWI certainly had a lot of "the moment you get out of cover you die" to it.

Imo the thing you want is large boards with even more Obscuring cover so that the board has lots of intervening LOS blocking terrain and armies have to fight over multiple zones of control that are separated enough to mitigate overwhelming supporting fire. Then there's lots of good decision making involved determining which units commit to which areas, which units can support both, and how you mess with your opponents plans.

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Bigger tables. Slower movement. Most weapons with shorter ranges. Longer games with more turns. Different activations like old school overwatch, take cover and so on. Nix the wombo combo BS e.g. CP and stratagem riddick weirdness. These would go a long way to fixing the problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/11 23:23:31


   
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 jeff white wrote:
Bigger tables. Slower movement. Most weapons with shorter ranges. Longer games with more turns. Different activations like old school overwatch, take cover and so on. Nix the wombo combo BS e.g. CP and stratagem riddick weirdness. These would go a long way to fixing the problem.

Yes it would.

   
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The recognition about shorter ranges is a big one. The last iteration of 40k with 'obscuring-like' terrain rules was 4th. In 4th a Space Marine could shoot no further than 12" on the move. In 9th my UM, if I played Primaris, could move and shoot twice at 30", can get some hefty save mods, and hurt vehicles with their bolters. Overall that's a huge increase in lethality for the sort of 'default' unit.

Plus the Heavy weapons were more limited for maneuvering. If most troops moved at all they couldn't fire them. If vehicles moved they were limited in shots. Twin linked wasn't double shots like they are now, etc.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 00:44:13


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Yeah, the range compression the game has seen is really weird. So many things cover essentially the whole table at this point.
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, the range compression the game has seen is really weird. So many things cover essentially the whole table at this point.


I would like to see some infantry weapons get squished down again, but nothing to a 12" on the move bolter, because that would just place bolters squarely in the useless category again. The bolt rifle range was surely set before smaller tables were even a glimmer in GW's eye.

Overall it really isn't a huge deal since that 30" doesn't grant you that many additional targets with terrain as it is.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, the range compression the game has seen is really weird. So many things cover essentially the whole table at this point.


I would like to see some infantry weapons get squished down again, but nothing to a 12" on the move bolter, because that would just place bolters squarely in the useless category again. The bolt rifle range was surely set before smaller tables were even a glimmer in GW's eye.

Overall it really isn't a huge deal since that 30" doesn't grant you that many additional targets with terrain as it is.
Bolters weren't useless in 4th. Naturally the thing that goes along with that paradigm is a reduction in range/lethality for other weapons.

since that 30" doesn't grant you that many additional targets with terrain as it is.

If 12" is " useless" than I'd think the 30" range matters quite a bit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/12 01:20:59


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Well seems like the game does have issues but its never a change one thing fix. For those who love the edition some people loved every edition of 40k, doesn't change they had issues.

Don't worry everyone I'm sure they will get it right in like a year or so with 10th edition and the codex roll out begins over again.
   
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I like the idea of smaller tables for 500-1000pt games, but when you get into 2000pt+ you really need to go back to the old 6' by 4' tables with good terrain placement. I'm a big fan of larger table sizes because at normal 2000pt games the small standard size right now just gets covered by units and a 48" range is enough to cover 2/3rds of the board, especially if there's minimal terrain to keep everyone from hiding, and it will make long range vehicles worthwhile again.
   
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Larger boards help with speed mattering and choices mattering more. Just my opinion as well but GW disagrees but then I also kind of miss when vehicle facing mattered.
   
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4x8 1500pts with maximum 1/3rd of army on board t1 with clear objectives.

Best of everything.

Make the first turn about maneuvering rather than flat out shooting gallery.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/12 01:46:58


 
   
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Racerguy180 wrote:
4x8 1500pts with maximum 1/3rd of army on board t1 with clear objectives.

Best of everything.

Make the first turn about maneuvering rather than flat out shooting gallery.
^This is why 4th edition 'Omega level' games were the pinnacle of 40k. Most of the armies started in reserve.

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In my games, due to terrain and objectives, the first turns usually are all about maneuvering, with a very small amount of fire. It feels nice.
   
 
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