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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Checking out the wargear options for 9e's updated datasheets leaves me really put-off by how complex they are. As a particularly egregious example, let's compare 8e Plague Marines to 9e Plague Marines, setting aside the Champion:
8e wrote: • Up to two Plague Marines can each replace their boltgun with either a plague spewer, a plague belcher, a blight launcher, a meltagun or a plasma gun.
• Any Plague Marine can replace their boltgun with either a bubotic axe or a second plague knife.
• Up to two Plague Marines can each replace their boltgun with a mace of contagion and a bubotic axe.
• Up to two Plague Marines can each replace their boltgun with either a great plague cleaver or a flail of corruption.
• One Plague Marine with a boltgun or with two plague knives may also take an Icon of Despair.
Pretty straightforward. You can take some special guns, anyone can swap out their guns for knives, and a few can swap out their guns for bigger melee weapons, and one can take an icon. Here's 9e:
9e wrote: • 1 Plague Marine’s boltgun can be replaced with 1 blight launcher.
• 1 Plague Marine’s boltgun can be replaced with 1 plague spewer.
• If this unit contains 10 models, 1 additional Plague Marine’s boltgun can be replaced with one of the following: 1 blight launcher; 1 plague spewer.
• For every 5 models in this unit, 1 Plague Marine’s boltgun can be replaced with one of the following: 1 meltagun; 1 plague belcher; 1 plasma gun.
• For every 5 models in this unit, 1 Plague Marine’s boltgun can be replaced with 1 plague knife.
• For every 5 models in this unit. 1 Plague Marine’s boltgun can be replaced with 1 bubotic axe.
• For every 5 models in this unit, 1 Plague Manne’s boltgun can be replaced with 1 mace of contagion and 1 bubotic axe.
• For every 5 models in this unit, 1 Plague Marine’s boltgun can be replaced with 1 flail of corruption.
• For every 5 models in this unit, 1 Plague Marine’s boltgun can be replaced with 1 great plague cleaver.
• 1 Plague Marine that is equipped with a boltgun can be equipped with 1 icon of despair. That boltgun cannot be replaced.
• 1 Plague Marine that is equipped with a boltgun can be equipped with 1 sigil of decay. That boltgun cannot be replaced.
This wall of text would be confusing as hell even if it didn't hurt my eyes, and I'm not even sure why it's so specific/restrictive or phrased the way it is. Is this literally just the number of melee weapons that come in each box? It's bizarre to read, not to mention awkward to build around; Cleaver and Flail are for fundamentally different things, so why would I want both in the same unit, instead of taking two of the same?

What's up with this change? Is there something I'm missing?

I thought about it some more, and Kill Team doesn't have this problem, partly because it just adds a new profile: Gunners (or Fighters, in some cases). Those have the same statline, they just get access to different weapons. So Plague Marines would be 4-9 Plague Marines, 1 Plague Champion... and for every 5 models in the unit, you could upgrade 2 Plague Marines to Plague Marine Gunners, and 2 Plague Marines to Plague Marine Fighters. Then the wargear list is just:
Kill Team Style wrote:• Plague Marines can each have their boltgun replaced with: 1 plague knife.
• 1 Plague Marine can be equipped with: 1 icon of despair; 1 sigil of decay.
• Plague Marine Gunners can each have their boltgun replaced with: 1 blight launcher; 1 melta gun; 1 plasma gun; 1 plague belcher; 1 plague spewer.
• Plague Marine Fighters can each have their boltgun replaced with: 1 bubotic axe; 1 bubotic axe and 1 mace of contagion; 1 flail of corruption; 1 great plague cleaver; 1 plague knife.

That's so much simpler. It's also more flexible for writers and players, since it'd make it easier to do things like, say, allowing Kabalites to double-up on special weapons if you wanted to. Instead of "one special weapon per 5, one heavy weapon per 10", you can say "For every 5 models in this unit, 1 Kabalite Warrior can be a Kabalite Warrior Gunner. For every 10 models in this unit, 1 Kabalite Warrior can be a Kabalite Warrior Heavy Gunner" and then the wargear section reads: "Kabalite Gunners can each have their splinter rifle replaced with: 1 blaster; 1 shredder. Kabalite Heavy Gunners can each have their splinter rifle replaced with: 1 blaster; 1 dark lance; 1 shredder; 1 splinter cannon".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/13 15:30:28


 
   
Made in gb
Servoarm Flailing Magos




United Kingdom

RevlidRas wrote:
I'm not even sure why it's so specific/restrictive or phrased the way it is. Is this literally just the number of melee weapons that come in each box?

Yes. The only valid options are what is in the box.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




beast_gts wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
I'm not even sure why it's so specific/restrictive or phrased the way it is. Is this literally just the number of melee weapons that come in each box?

Yes. The only valid options are what is in the box.
Setting aside how grim I find that on a personal level, and setting aside the question of what that means for people who picked up the Dark Imperium or Easy-To-Build boxes... by that logic, the Plague Marine unit ought to just be fixed at 7 models, which is what's actually in the current plastic box. And the plasma/melta/belcher distinction (vs blight/spewer) still makes no sense, since you get one of each per box. If I buy two boxes (to build, y'know, that 10-man squad the game's telling me I can and mechanically should build), then setting aside my spare Marines, I've got a squad of 10 with 2 Meltas, 2 Plasmas, 2 Belchers (can only use two of those, total), plus 2 Launchers and 2 Spewers (have to drop one of those, too), plus 2 Champions (only one allowed), plus 4 Axes (can use all of those, but 2 have to be with Maces), 2 Flails, 2 Cleavers, 2 Maces, and 2 Swords (only one allowed). And if I want to split up my new purchases into two squads of 5 (or 7, for that matter), I can't stick my 2 meltas in the same squad to go tank hunting and move my 2 belchers to the other squad for clearing infantry - they have to be split up, I guess for social distancing reasons?

I'm almost sure you're right and that's what they're aiming for, but "it's what's in the box" doesn't make sense as a restriction.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





RevlidRas wrote:

• Plague Marine Gunners can each have their boltgun replaced with: 1 blight launcher; 1 melta gun; 1 plasma gun; 1 plague belcher; 1 plague spewer.


This removes whole point of new style. Exactly what comes in box. No 2 plasma gun or meltagun.

Gw wants you to build box as it comes. Any suggestion for wording that allows 2 plasma gun for plague marine squad like that is dead on arrival.

2021 painted/bought: 497/417 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:

• Plague Marine Gunners can each have their boltgun replaced with: 1 blight launcher; 1 melta gun; 1 plasma gun; 1 plague belcher; 1 plague spewer.


This removes whole point of new style. Exactly what comes in box. No 2 plasma gun or meltagun.

Gw wants you to build box as it comes. Any suggestion for wording that allows 2 plasma gun for plague marine squad like that is dead on arrival.
Sure, but by that logic why aren't Plague Marines locked in at 7 models per unit, with only one of each special/heavy weapon allowed? That's what's in the box, after all...

I get what you're saying, it just... kind of sucks? And results in this hideous wall of text.
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine





RevlidRas wrote:
And the plasma/melta/belcher distinction (vs blight/spewer) still makes no sense, since you get one of each per box.


Take a look at the instructions in the box and it makes more sense. Plague Marine 4 can be built with the blight launcher. Plague Marine 5 can be built with the plasma, melta or belcher. Plague Marine 6 can be built with the spewer.

The bad news is, they're doing it. The good news is, they aren't doing it on every datasheet, only some of them.
   
Made in de
Scuttling Genestealer




Wait, so does that mean you can replace all of the boltguns in a 5-man unit with various special stuff, but can not pick any one option twice?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Slowroll wrote:
RevlidRas wrote:
And the plasma/melta/belcher distinction (vs blight/spewer) still makes no sense, since you get one of each per box.


Take a look at the instructions in the box and it makes more sense. Plague Marine 4 can be built with the blight launcher. Plague Marine 5 can be built with the plasma, melta or belcher. Plague Marine 6 can be built with the spewer.
Ohhhh god it's the wages of monopose. That makes so much more horrible sense.

When I got the Dark Imperium box I just... converted a bunch of Plague Marines into the configuration I wanted. Goddamn.

What's really weird is that allowing 5x meltaguns (for example) in a 10-man Plague Marine unit, as opposed to a mishmash of five different special guns, would require buying 5 boxes of Plague Marines... but from Games Workshop's perspective, why is that anything but a feature? It means more money for you. Worst case scenario, people do what I did and convert non-melta Plague Marines into more melta Plague Marines, which either means they've bought more boxes to have more bitz (meaning more money for you) or they've got around that somehow and you're still not losing money.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

After years of people complaining there are not enough bits in the kit to build their favored configuration of the unit, GW took action... people are not pleased
   
Made in us
Noble Knight of the Realm




Louisville (KY)

Gw is merely attemting to control of portion of the market they themselves have created by ending the mechanisims that created it.

E.G. gw has kits with not enough weapons or options in them, and are themselves unwilling to meet the demand required. So instead of allowing places like Anvil or victoria miniatures to continue to take market share away from them they are ending the practices that allowed them to flourish in the first place.

Look at guardsmen with camo cloaks and carapce armor. Same thing happened there.

This is IMO a net negative for allowing players the ability to modify, kitbash, and model their collection. Custom stuff is always the most interesting as well :(



You can also look to the new board size as well for a similar situation. Gw would not or could not compete with matt sellers, so they changed the size to feth them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/13 22:40:27


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Gw is merely attemting to control of portion of the market they themselves have created by ending the mechanisims that created it.

Or being ChapterHouse cautious when it comes to new kits.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Sledgehammer wrote:
Gw is merely attemting to control of portion of the market they themselves have created by ending the mechanisims that created it.

E.G. gw has kits with not enough weapons or options in them, and are themselves unwilling to meet the demand required. So instead of allowing places like Anvil or victoria miniatures to continue to take market share away from them they are ending the practices that allowed them to flourish in the first place.

Look at guardsmen with camo cloaks and carapce armor. Same thing happened there.

This is IMO a net negative for allowing players the ability to modify, kitbash, and model their collection. Custom stuff is always the most interesting as well :(



You can also look to the new board size as well for a similar situation. Gw would not or could not compete with matt sellers, so they changed the size to feth them.


Creativity is anathema to a corporate mindset.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Sledgehammer wrote:
Gw is merely attemting to control of portion of the market they themselves have created by ending the mechanisims that created it.

E.G. gw has kits with not enough weapons or options in them, and are themselves unwilling to meet the demand required. So instead of allowing places like Anvil or victoria miniatures to continue to take market share away from them they are ending the practices that allowed them to flourish in the first place.

Look at guardsmen with camo cloaks and carapce armor. Same thing happened there.

This is IMO a net negative for allowing players the ability to modify, kitbash, and model their collection. Custom stuff is always the most interesting as well :(
Yeah, but... like, best case scenario from GW's perspective, I buy extra boxes so I'll have enough special weapons to make the configuration I want. That's great for them, it's extra purchases. Alternatively, I buy those extra special weapons as bitz from eBay, in which case they're not getting my money, but they presumably got someone's money, at some point. It's just second hand sales, same as buying a whole box of Plague Marines.

Worst case scenario, I buy those extra weapons from a third party sculptor... in which case it's still no skin off GW's nose, because I already had to buy the actual box off them, and they're not selling the weapons themselves.

The worst case scenario is still one in which Games Workshop is not losing any money, and could in fact make more money by just having Forge World sell weapon upgrade packs like they do for Necromunda. Hell, 3D print them on-demand, the guns aren't that detailed.

The only angle I can see is that buying third party bitz opens the door to buying third party models... but I can do that anyway, and GW can sue them or kick me out of the store anyway, that's not going to change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/26 10:18:34


 
   
 
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