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Made in us
Executing Exarch




The stratagem reads "... if an attack made by a model in that unit destroys an enemy model, the attacking model can make one additional attack against the same unit using the same weapon."

My question is if a model uses a weapon with more than one shot (ie., a sonic blaster) and kills two opposing models does he get an additional one or two attacks? As subquestions is the attack at the full RoF of the weapon or is it just one die roll per kill?

And, (not technically a rules question), would you allow fast rolling or mandate the attacking player slow roll?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 00:21:01


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The Stratagem is used in the Fight phase, so generally you are not making ranged attacks with the unit using the strat. (I.E. you can not use a sonic blaster, as that is a ranged weapon and not used in the fight phase).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Actually you can use a ranged weapon in the fight phase if, you are a Noise Marine unit. They have the special rule Music of the Apocolypse which enables them to shoot in the fight phase.

That aside my question regarding multiple kills with a single unit still stands since CSM have multiple HtH attacks.
   
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Dakka Veteran






Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually you can use a ranged weapon in the fight phase if, you are a Noise Marine unit. They have the special rule Music of the Apocolypse which enables them to shoot in the fight phase.

That aside my question regarding multiple kills with a single unit still stands since CSM have multiple HtH attacks.


Yes, if you have more than one attack and each attack kills a separate model, then you get an extra attack for each model killed. The rule does not state a limit of one extra attack per model.
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The stratagem reads "... if an attack made by a model in that unit destroys an enemy model, the attacking model can make one additional attack against the same unit using the same weapon."

My question is if a model uses a weapon with more than one shot (ie., a sonic blaster) and kills two opposing models does he get an additional one or two attacks? As subquestions is the attack at the full RoF of the weapon or is it just one die roll per kill?

There's a quick distinction to be made here: every "shot" you make with a weapon is an attack. You don't make "an attack" with a weapon and roll multiple dice (barring exceptions like "sweep"-type attacks); if a weapon is listed as Assault 3, then each of those three dice you roll are "an attack".

If you were able to engineer a situation where you can use Excess of Violence on a ranged weapon (e.g. by combining it with Music of the Apocalypse), the additional attack you make would be one dice, not the "full RoF" of the weapon.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually you can use a ranged weapon in the fight phase if, you are a Noise Marine unit. They have the special rule Music of the Apocolypse which enables them to shoot in the fight phase.

That aside my question regarding multiple kills with a single unit still stands since CSM have multiple HtH attacks.
Music of the Apocalypse only works for shooting attacks. If the model is within engagement range, it can't make a shooting attack.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





A few things on this one.

I’m not sure if the initial quote of the strategem is correct, a quick Google search for “Excess of Violence” show this wording:

Use this Strategem just before an EMPEROR’S CHILDREN INFANTRY unit attacks in the Fight phase. Each time a model in your unit slays an enemy model, it can immediately make another hit roll using the same weapon at the same target (these bonus attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks).


This seems to clear up the OP’s question, as it specifically says make an additional “hit roll” as opposed to an extra “attack”.

As for how this interacts with Music of the Apocalypse, I don’t see how it can. Music of the Apocalypse means you can shoot as if it were the shooting phase. The same restrictions for engagement range will apply. In addition Music of the Apocalypse might not be able to trigger Excess of Violence, since the strategem is played just before a “unit” attacks, and music of the Apocalypse specifies that a model rather than a unit is able to attack, and I know similarly worded rules have caused some discussions in the past, which AFAIK weren’t able to reach a consensus.
   
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Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually you can use a ranged weapon in the fight phase if, you are a Noise Marine unit. They have the special rule Music of the Apocolypse which enables them to shoot in the fight phase.

That aside my question regarding multiple kills with a single unit still stands since CSM have multiple HtH attacks.
Music of the Apocalypse only works for shooting attacks. If the model is within engagement range, it can't make a shooting attack.


Not true. Models can shoot with pistols when in engagement range.
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




If you choose to destroy a model that is not in engagement range then I can make a ranged attack with that model.

@Aash- The exact wording from PA Faith and Fury and is indeed an extra attack not an extra hit roll. My quote is correct I have no idea where your quote comes from.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 11:23:36


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually you can use a ranged weapon in the fight phase if, you are a Noise Marine unit. They have the special rule Music of the Apocolypse which enables them to shoot in the fight phase.

That aside my question regarding multiple kills with a single unit still stands since CSM have multiple HtH attacks.
Music of the Apocalypse only works for shooting attacks. If the model is within engagement range, it can't make a shooting attack.


Not true. Models can shoot with pistols when in engagement range.
We were talking about the sonic blaster, that is not a pistol. And the Strat is used in the Fight Phase. You can't shoot pistols in the fight phase. (Music of the Apocalypse would let you shoot pistols in the fight phase though but we were talking about the sonic blaster).

Please don't comment if you are not going to read the whole thread.
.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/17 16:20:35


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually you can use a ranged weapon in the fight phase if, you are a Noise Marine unit. They have the special rule Music of the Apocolypse which enables them to shoot in the fight phase.

That aside my question regarding multiple kills with a single unit still stands since CSM have multiple HtH attacks.
Music of the Apocalypse only works for shooting attacks. If the model is within engagement range, it can't make a shooting attack.


Not true. Models can shoot with pistols when in engagement range.
We were talking about the sonic blaster, that is not a pistol. And the Strat is used in the Fight Phase. You can't shoot pistols in the fight phase. (Music of the Apocalypse would let you shoot pistols in the fight phase though but we were talking about the sonic blaster).

Please don't comment if you are not going to read the whole thread.
.


What are you talking about? The original post used Sonic Blasters as an example of a ranged weapon with multiple attacks baked in, not the specific weapon being discussed.

The answer is that each die you roll to hit with a ranged weapon is an "Attack". If one of those dice wounds and subsequently kills and enemy model, you then get another die to roll to hit with; an extra "Attack" with the ranged weapon. Since you are in the Fight Phase to use the initial stratagem and the unit it is being used on must have just been chosen to fight, that means you are within Engagement range of enemy models and to use a a ranged weapon one of your own models must have been slain, thus activating Music of the Apocalypse. Because you are in Engagement range of an enemy unit, the only valid option would be a Pistol type ranged weapon. If the Pistol is a special weapon or relic with multiple attacks (Pistol 2+), then each attack has the potential to generate one extra attack by killing an enemy model. Normally, you would be forced to use the standard Bolt Pistol (Pistol 1), in which case there is nothing to question, but there may be special cases as I described, so the question is valid for someone who has not yet grasped that the number of shots assigned to a ranged weapon is the number of attacks with it that are made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I feel I should say that this is not a commonly discussed attribute of ranged weapons since it doesn't tend to come up all that much, so don't feel bad about not knowing about the number of shots being the number of attacks. I believe most people just know that the number (e.g. Assault 3) is the number of dice rolled when shooting with a ranged weapon and don't think about the mechanics behind it all that often. I certainly never thought about it too deeply before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 17:11:51


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I@Aash- The exact wording from PA Faith and Fury and is indeed an extra attack not an extra hit roll. My quote is correct I have no idea where your quote comes from.

Page 166 of Codex Chaos Space Marines (8th edition).

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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Executing Exarch




Well that's interesting- The two stratagems have the same name but the one in Faith and Fury definitely says attacks while the one in the CSM codex says hit. Other than that they have identical wording. So now it's up to GW to decide which version is the correct one. As a side note if you would kill something with the additional attack/hit would you then get to make another attack/hit? The stratagem doesn't limit itself to one use as so many other stratagems of this type do.

As to using a sonic blaster for the attacks in Music of the Apocalypse I would put forth the argument that since the model is already destroyed it is no longer part of a unit. You would then look at where the model is in relation to enemy units. If it is in melee range then it is limited to using a pistol or grenade, if it is not in melee range then you would be free to choose whichever ranged weapon you wish.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 19:05:33


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 SergentSilver wrote:
Spoiler:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Actually you can use a ranged weapon in the fight phase if, you are a Noise Marine unit. They have the special rule Music of the Apocolypse which enables them to shoot in the fight phase.

That aside my question regarding multiple kills with a single unit still stands since CSM have multiple HtH attacks.
Music of the Apocalypse only works for shooting attacks. If the model is within engagement range, it can't make a shooting attack.


Not true. Models can shoot with pistols when in engagement range.
We were talking about the sonic blaster, that is not a pistol. And the Strat is used in the Fight Phase. You can't shoot pistols in the fight phase. (Music of the Apocalypse would let you shoot pistols in the fight phase though but we were talking about the sonic blaster).

Please don't comment if you are not going to read the whole thread.
.

What are you talking about? The original post used Sonic Blasters as an example of a ranged weapon with multiple attacks baked in, not the specific weapon being discussed.
But is was the specific weapon being discussed, see the second post of this thread. (the "I.E. you can not use a sonic blaster..." part).

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Stratagem is used in the Fight phase, so generally you are not making ranged attacks with the unit using the strat. (I.E. you can not use a sonic blaster, as that is a ranged weapon and not used in the fight phase).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




I just reread Music of the Apocalypse and it says, "... the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade, even if the model's unit is within 1" of the enemy ."

So, I think that it's fair to say that you can make that attack using a Sonic Blaster or, a Blast Master or, a Doom Siren regardless of the unit's situation.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/18 00:43:07


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I just reread Music of the Apocalypse and it says, "... the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade, even if the model's unit is within 1" of the enemy ."

So, I think that it's fair to say that you can make that attack using a Sonic Blaster or, a Blast Master or, a Doom Siren regardless of the unit's situation.
If that is the second sentence of the rule then it has been removed via Errata.

There appears to be two versions of the Excess of Violence Stratagem out there. One version has not listed duration, so only last during the specific Fight it was activated with. The other last until the end of the phase. In the case of the former, it will should never interact with Music of the Apocalypse since your Noise Marine would need to die during his attack. In the second version, it will work anytime in the phase after they have fought allowing them to get that extra attack if their Music of the Apocalypse attack kills.
   
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Vanished Completely

DeathReaper,
Are you quoting yourself as evidence that you are correct?
Also, to see that Game Workshop has multiple versions of the same rules....

Nice that some things around here never change!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 01:33:34


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Well that's interesting- The two stratagems have the same name but the one in Faith and Fury definitely says attacks while the one in the CSM codex says hit. Other than that they have identical wording. So now it's up to GW to decide which version is the correct one. As a side note if you would kill something with the additional attack/hit would you then get to make another attack/hit? The stratagem doesn't limit itself to one use as so many other stratagems of this type do.


"(these bonus attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks)." would indicate that you don't get another attack/hit if your bonus attack/hit killed something.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Traditionally you use the more recent publication

It's not the first time this happens

Just look at the flesh tearers warlord trait in codex SM and contrast with BA
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




@Doctor Tom- The Faith and Fury stratagem has no such wording (these attacks can not generate further attacks). That's why I wonder if they can, in fact, generate a continuous string of attacks until such time as there are no enemy models left in the unit or you fail to kill somethng.
   
 
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