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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh




I honestly find the concept of female space marines a more welcome change than primaris, and I’ve recently come to terms with the fact that primaris marines are simply THE space marine henceforth. Still, one would think while they were taking artistic liberties with space marines that would have never flown in previous fluff, they could have slipped in a change to the process that makes females compatible with space marine gene seed and implants and hormones. I’ve even read compelling theories that females being non compatible with gene seed and what not was not for a scientific reason but actually that the emperor was a misogynist that didn’t want women in his exclusive club of spacefaring supersoldiers, or that even he was worried about what a “woman’s touch” might bring to the culture of the marines. He certainly preferred the company of other men and rarely deigned to consult female characters, let alone female characters in leadership positions in his empire. Whilst conducting heretical experimentation on the space marine formula it would be plausible that Cawl accidentally discovered that women were in fact compatible with the program, or even found a gene or implant purposefully designed to exclude female biology and was able to reverse it... even worse, he didn’t and took that secret with him...

Just curious as to what your (hopefully filtered/restrained) responses to this sort of thinking would be. I know female space marines is one of the more toxic topics as is the lore behind the primaris, but again, please show some restraint. On the plus side the grim dark of the imperium of man can persist through misogyny if this makes for a plausible bit of fluff, knowing that female space marines are possible but that cawl and gulliman cling to the Emperor’s hypothetical legacy of misogyny...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 00:14:48


Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Before the hate comes in:

IMO, they'd make Sisters of Battle redundant.

Sisters of Battle wear Power Armor, use Space Marine-lite weapons, and, while not as physically strong as Space Marines or Custodes, their faith "powers" allow them to achieve feats and "miracles" that even Space Marines would not be able to achieve.

Saint Mina, who founded the Order of the Bloody Rose, fought a Custodes to a stand-still. An unaugmented human. Fought. A Custodes. To a stand still.

Space Marines and Custodes are the fastest, strongest, and most powerful humans, but they require augmentation to get there. Allowing the same level of augmentation for females removes the need for the Sisters of Battle. I feel it is a more profound statement that an all female nun order is the best class of soldier that regular humans have to offer.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






I feel part of the problem is that realistically that assuming they would want women for some reason to become SM, the majority of SM trials forced on aspirants would mean that women who were chosen would be weeded out incredibly early on just given the biological advantages a man has over a woman physically. Think about US Navy Seals, they're open to women to join but so far no one has joined or made it past the initial training to make the cut. Now imagine that, but 10x worse and grueling, with additional possibility of you not being able to cope with the marine implants. The likelihood of women becoming marines, even with this change, would be so low that their representation would be incredibly rare and thus basically pointless besides as a token attempt at representation.

I'd much prefer they show more female representation in the guard than marines, because not only is it more realistic there, but the model range is already in desperate need of a reboot and it doesn't require significant retconning to make it happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 01:10:43


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




You have to have female Guard for the simple reason that if they survive long enough they get their own world. If they were male only, they would die out within a generation.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh




First of all they had to retcon female space marines out of 2nd edition... second the new primaris space marine procedure is basically a zero retcon required excuse to make them as it shouldn’t have been feasible for Cawl to commit such heresy as messing with the space marine creation process anyways, basically scribbling all over one of the emperor’s greatest accomplishments and gifts to humanity... also of note is whether or not space marine selects are physically tested before getting augmented into super soldiers; the muscle growth and second heart transplants in particular. Granted a female may not make the cut but I get the sneaky suspicion that there are some females that have put the male aspirants to shame in physical superiority, like a Catachan female (even though that particular example is probably off limits for recruiting). Also of note is the actual complexity in human genetics when it comes to biological sex, such as pseudohermaphrodism, or when the single gene on the Y chromosome that makes a male that gender, makes the leap to the X chromosome as has happened and is a documented occurrence. Biology is weird and complicated... and disregarded in the fluff.

Agreed with the guard though. We need female gaurdspeoples. A female space marine shouldn’t look that radically different from a space marine anyways, should such a thing ever exist.

An issue I have is just how much more submissive a role Sisters seem to occupy compared to Astartes; when not actively crusading there appears to be a degree of autonomy afforded space marines, whereas SoB seem to lack that... of course I might have gotten that bit wrong.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






macluvin wrote:
First of all they had to retcon female space marines out of 2nd edition... second the new primaris space marine procedure is basically a zero retcon required excuse to make them as it shouldn’t have been feasible for Cawl to commit such heresy as messing with the space marine creation process anyways, basically scribbling all over one of the emperor’s greatest accomplishments and gifts to humanity... also of note is whether or not space marine selects are physically tested before getting augmented into super soldiers; the muscle growth and second heart transplants in particular. Granted a female may not make the cut but I get the sneaky suspicion that there are some females that have put the male aspirants to shame in physical superiority, like a Catachan female (even though that particular example is probably off limits for recruiting). Also of note is the actual complexity in human genetics when it comes to biological sex, such as pseudohermaphrodism, or when the single gene on the Y chromosome that makes a male that gender, makes the leap to the X chromosome as has happened and is a documented occurrence. Biology is weird and complicated... and disregarded in the fluff.

Agreed with the guard though. We need female gaurdspeoples. A female space marine shouldn’t look that radically different from a space marine anyways, should such a thing ever exist.

An issue I have is just how much more submissive a role Sisters seem to occupy compared to Astartes; when not actively crusading there appears to be a degree of autonomy afforded space marines, whereas SoB seem to lack that... of course I might have gotten that bit wrong.


I think it's kind of disingenous to bring up 1st edition stuff as canon at all to what exists now, given that we had things like Obi Wan Sherlock Clouseau and Chief Librarian Tigurius being a half-Eldar/half-human. Furthermore, the retcon you cited should be noted that it was published in the US-based company Game Designer's Workshop's Challenge magazine, and was not directly authored or published by GW themselves. Though presumably they would have gotten permission from GW to write about their IP. It was also a time where they were trying to see what stuck rather than anything that really resembled what 40k looks like now.

Also, I'm assuming you haven't caught up with how Cawl has been able to upgrade SM at all in the fluff, but he's basically been given access to the sangprimus portum which has the raw material of all the primarchs. He basically has the personality and knowledge of one of the key geneticists that were involved in the creation of the Astartes with the Emperor among several other Mechanicus individuals. Given how long he has lived, it makes sense that he would be able to improve on the Emperor's work, especially since the Emp basically gave him his blessing in his endeavours as well. Now obviously this is something that was added recently, but it's not like he did it overnight with no prep time or experience, 10K years seems like a reasonable time in 40k standards to overhaul one of the top fighting weapons of the Imperium.

As I said before, while there are outliers to females being able to compete almost on par with men, you then also have to factor the extreme outliers to men themselves that they are also competing against. This is why most sports (well until recently with the stuff I won't go into since that moves towards the realm of politics) are delineated between men and women because you're already dealing with the cream of the crop for men in terms of genetics/biology, so even if you have the top performing women, they're still going to be far below the higher ceiling for men. So for something as extreme as SM aspirant trials where the cut off rate is pretty damn high, the few women that even make it past the initial trials might either die near the end or there might be single digits worth of fem SM in several chapters, which is...kind of pointless IMO. Then it just comes off as virtue-signalling their inclusion rather than something that actually adds depth to what already exists. Like Arcanis said before me, SoB are already a much more compelling faction and one that has a more interesting backstory and basis.

Hell, we could expand on Sisters of Silence more if you want more female representation if you're not satisfied with more rep in the Guard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 02:35:58


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Fabius bile muses that the reason the emperor did not enhance the female part of the population to be astartes is because they would be too dangerous. Which is why he is quite keen to create female leaders amongst his new “men”

I thought the simple reason was because the basic implants first requires to make an astartes are linked to the male chromosome
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

These things always end up in the colocvial dumpster fire.

I would just like to say that I am all for more female models inn the game in general and as space marines in particular. And that is my contribution to this topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 11:25:58


I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

Completely unnecessary. A net negative proposal. Sisters of Battle are a better concept than bland female Space Marines. Exclusive brotherhoods and sisterhoods of warriors are a superior idea. Distinct and full of character. Adeptus Astartes, Custodes, Sororitas and Sisters of Silence are clearly the way to go. Fortunately, GW itself understands this, even if others do not.

40k plucks on archaic strings in its worldbuilding. Be true to the spirit of the setting.

Fingers crossed people cease this myopic fixation on Space Marines. There is a wider picture.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 07:09:41


   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh




As I said before, while there are outliers to females being able to compete almost on par with men, you then also have to factor the extreme outliers to men themselves that they are also competing against. This is why most sports (well until recently with the stuff I won't go into since that moves towards the realm of politics) are delineated between men and women because you're already dealing with the cream of the crop for men in terms of genetics/biology, so even if you have the top performing women, they're still going to be far below the higher ceiling for men. So for something as extreme as SM aspirant trials where the cut off rate is pretty damn high, the few women that even make it past the initial trials might either die near the end or there might be single digits worth of fem SM in several chapters, which is...kind of pointless IMO. Then it just comes off as virtue-signalling their inclusion rather than something that actually adds depth to what already exists. Like Arcanis said before me, SoB are already a much more compelling faction and one that has a more interesting backstory and basis.

Hell, we could expand on Sisters of Silence more if you want more female representation if you're not satisfied with more rep in the Guard.


But the only difference between how a male and a female develop is purely a matter of hormones. Which the gene seed and implants manipulates anyways. Which is why a male-female trans would adopt the same muscle development as a female with hormonal treatments and vice versa. Which again, biology. And again again. Only one gene on the entire Y chromosome is responsible for males being males. Genetics as an excuse is thin as air and twice as easy to cut through with a basic understanding of biology and physiology.

I find it more believable that a xenophobic, totalitarian, and scientific method shunning society, who persecutes mutants on the basis that they look different and therefore must be tainted or evil, and bearing medieval minds simply adopted the degree of misogyny the emperor had in excluding females from space marines and simply do not consider females for leadership positions as often as men. I find it more believable that it’s not because they can’t but that they won’t. I also crave the imperium being flawed and ass backwards as much as humanly possible... robo g showing up and taking care of business and working the flaws out of the imperium would be much more interesting if he was adding or reinforcing other flaws.

This is also why the dark angels are my favorite chapter... they have very interesting skeletons in the closet.

I’m also a chaos space marine player so it makes no matter for me. Which brings me to another point... technically daemoncubula are female space marines...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 07:20:06


Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





Remember that supposedly, aspirants start being "marinated" at around 10-12 years old. If you take kids before puberty, it doesn't matter that much what their gender is. It also means that their growth will be completely changed by all the hormones and implants being stuffed into them. Add the psycho hypnosis (or whatever it's called) that changes their mindset and the original gender of a marine doesn't matter at all. They will all end up as barely human killing machines anyway.

From a game design point of view, I agree that female marines would step on the sister's toes, so it's probably better to keep it that way.
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

 Tiennos wrote:
Remember that supposedly, aspirants start being "marinated" at around 10-12 years old. If you take kids before puberty, it doesn't matter that much what their gender is. It also means that their growth will be completely changed by all the hormones and implants being stuffed into them. Add the psycho hypnosis (or whatever it's called) that changes their mindset and the original gender of a marine doesn't matter at all. They will all end up as barely human killing machines anyway.

From a game design point of view, I agree that female marines would step on the sister's toes, so it's probably better to keep it that way.


Biological makeup changed, physiology changed, psycho indoctrinated....You basically end up with something that will look like and act like an existing marine and fit into the armour provided.

I'm all for a GW retcon..'...no one is special'. Fits the grim dark theme really well

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 08:58:31


 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

Monks and nuns should be kept separate. That is more archaic than mixed orders.

   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





It is quite funny how a few characters have pointed out the silliness of Astartes and the Primarchs being all male. Malcador even suggested that the Emperor should have made the Primarchs some sisters to balance out the big manly men having -measuring contests all the time.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune





Northumberland

I agree with KNC, Sisters of Battle are a far more awesome aesthetic and army than just having boring bland female space marines.

I'd have preferred if they had just updated the sisters a lot sooner than they did. And bring out some female guard figures.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

I prefer the idea of Space Marines being beyond definable biological sex as a result of the process they go through; the ultimate defenders of humanity lose a vital element of what made them human. I always hated Space Wolves carousing like 'big damn heroes' in the mead hall, because it shat all over the tragedy of what they should be.

From a modelling perspective, female Space Marines would look like their 'male' counterparts, notwithstanding the inevitable complaints about their heads not looking 'feminine' enough and demands for more bewbs; "Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"

All of that said, I don't want female Space Marines simply to deny satisfaction to those clamouring for them in order to virtue signal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 11:43:49


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran





 harlokin wrote:

All of that said, I don't want female Space Marines simply to deny satisfaction to those clamouring for them in order to virtue signal.


This is where I stand as well. Introducing major changes into an established IP for extraneous political/ideological reasons is something I cannot support.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Halifax

Forgot where I was posting. Deleted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 11:53:47


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Not gonna happen at this point. Gws market share is much more vulnerable to Aggrieved Nerdy White Man cancel culture than it is to Aggrieved Woke Let's Be Real Mostly Also White Man cancel culture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr. Burning wrote:
 Tiennos wrote:
Remember that supposedly, aspirants start being "marinated" at around 10-12 years old. If you take kids before puberty, it doesn't matter that much what their gender is. It also means that their growth will be completely changed by all the hormones and implants being stuffed into them. Add the psycho hypnosis (or whatever it's called) that changes their mindset and the original gender of a marine doesn't matter at all. They will all end up as barely human killing machines anyway.

From a game design point of view, I agree that female marines would step on the sister's toes, so it's probably better to keep it that way.


Biological makeup changed, physiology changed, psycho indoctrinated....You basically end up with something that will look like and act like an existing marine and fit into the armour provided.

I'm all for a GW retcon..'...no one is special'. Fits the grim dark theme really well


Yeah, also this. Adding female heads to the guard boxes gives you 100% all the tools needed to create female space marines for yourself. I've already got female space marines - all my deathwatch are named, some of them are named "Sister" instead of "Brother".

Main problem I had was just lack of heads. I had like one spare Sister of Silence head that I cut the top knot off of that made a fine space marine head, but the Escher heads were too small (way smaller than female GSC or Sister of Silence, I think becuase they wanted to make the hair look bigger they scaled the heads down). So all but one of my battle-sisters are just wearing their helmets like responsible adults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My deathwatch aren't exactly the world's most lore-abiding space marines, though, because I couldn't give a rat's ass about the intricasies of marine lore. I've got Brother Apoplectus of the Angry Marines in the mix and because at least in the first iteration of the new Kill Team maybe they've changed it by now there was no way to take a Deathwatch Primaris Intercessor without paying an extra 2 points for a 100% useless, literally worthless Special Issue Ammo bolt pistol, I gave my one intercessor a good ol' boy looking Orlock head and an american flag shoulderpad and named him Cousin Jethro of the Dont Tread On Marines and modeled him dual-wielding his rifle and the pistol you can take from his cold dead hands.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 12:08:16


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I for one would welcome the models, but actively burn the fluff. I can't even begin to imagine the cringy crap that would come out of the BL about "female recruits" in the Space Marine legions. I mean, Black Library does a lot of things well, Inclusivity and sensitivity to topics and areas outside their wheelhouse is not one of them. Please just give us female heads, and call it done. Don't make cringy fluff that has "Shower hazing scenes" and brutal gory scenes depicting their torture at the hands of some sadistic BBEG. No thank you, I'll pass. But yes, I would love Custodes Females with gorgeos flowing red top knots instead of their stupid helmets.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





Considering GW isn't exactly in the market of making smut or torture porn I very much doubt something like that would even come close to being published. The only "cringe" GW seems to make just now is Astartes being painfully infallible but even then that isn't the case 100% of the time.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




So when I say torture porn, I'm not talking about Saw or Hostel. I'm talking more in line with what Lara Croft goes through in the new re-imagined Tomb Raider 1. She gets brutally beaten, nearly raped, and has to end up doing some pretty gruesome and horrific things to survive. That's mental torture. She's so badly beat up at the end of the game, her clothes are shredded and she's basically running around in the snow with next to nothing on. That's physical torture. Granted the writing in that is also crappy, but it's still all done from the "male gaze" perspective. I could see BL putting female Space Marines through some horrifically brutal trials, a sort of GI Jane montage of terrible things forcing her to survive and grow strong enough to "belong".
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





If there was literally any evidence whatsoever of BL getting an author to write a book like that in that much detail now I could see your point. But considering BL hasn't done anything close to that sort of detail, I think ever, you seem to just be spouting nonsense.
Tomb Raider 2013 was an 18 rated game, it was specifically marketed for adults. GW markets its product to people from like 8+.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

I could be crazy, but I always thought the core issue was less that space marines were all male and more that they are the poster boy of 40k. They're the closest thing to a protagonist the setting has. And to make a protagonist faction in a game with roleplaying characteristics with exclusive factors always felt a bit unfair.

I think if we lived in an alternate universe where SOB held the position of space marines, you would have people wishing to add men.

No idea how we move away from that. Yeah, you could add woman to primaris marines, but people already have lukewarm feeling towards the primaris release. You could also give equal attention to the various imperium factions, but that sounds equally as impossible.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 19:59:26


Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 Mr Nobody wrote:
I could be crazy, but I always thought the core issue was less that space marines were all male and more that they are the poster boy of 40k. They're the closest thing to a protagonist the setting has. And to make a protagonist faction in a game with roleplaying characteristics always felt a bit unfair.

I think if we lived in an alternate universe where SOB held the position of space marines, you would have people wishing to add men.

No idea how we move away from that. Yeah, you could add woman to primaris marines, but people already have lukewarm feeling towards the primaris release. You could also give equal attention to the various imperium factions, but that sounds equally as impossible.
I thought the 9th edition trailer did exactly that. Astartes and Sisters were both shown in a positive light, with different yet equally valued skills.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






jareddm wrote:
 Mr Nobody wrote:
I could be crazy, but I always thought the core issue was less that space marines were all male and more that they are the poster boy of 40k. They're the closest thing to a protagonist the setting has. And to make a protagonist faction in a game with roleplaying characteristics always felt a bit unfair.

I think if we lived in an alternate universe where SOB held the position of space marines, you would have people wishing to add men.

No idea how we move away from that. Yeah, you could add woman to primaris marines, but people already have lukewarm feeling towards the primaris release. You could also give equal attention to the various imperium factions, but that sounds equally as impossible.
I thought the 9th edition trailer did exactly that. Astartes and Sisters were both shown in a positive light, with different yet equally valued skills.


The space marine: Massive, hilarious levels of plot armor allowing a basic troop model with an anti-chaff melee weapon to effortlessly dispatch a 50-ish ppm heavily armored tough elite

The sister of battle: ....punctuality I guess, since the space marine didn't show up to save her until later in the vid?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Because the ability to bring forth miracles through faith is nothing. That said, this is background. Get out of here with your tabletop stats. The two are unrelated and don't match.
Never have and never will.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






jareddm wrote:
Because the ability to bring forth miracles through faith is nothing. That said, this is background. Get out of here with your tabletop stats. The two are unrelated and don't match.
Never have and never will.


That miracle being...being rescued by the more powerful space marine.

Don't get me wrong, sisters and marines are both cool - sisters are cooler, obviously, for the same reason Batman is more likely to be peoples' favorite superhero than Superman - but that video ain't exactly a good example to point to as to how GW 'values both of their skills and abilities equally' just like how watching Justice League would be a bad way to understand why people like batman.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think it would be cool if CSM made female astartes. That had unique properties associated with the genetic science required to adapt the organs to the female body.

Maybe they would be too powerful for some reason and that’s why the emperor didn’t do it. Seeing as the astartes were a step down in terms of individual power compared to the thunder warriors
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




It's like putting Batman next to Superman and saying, SEE! THEY ARE EQUALS. One is a demi-god with the power to single handedly take out entire squads of lesser troops, and one is a exceptionally talented base level human that has tinkerbell powers. The only way she can survive is if you believe hard enough.

Why is it in Background every year or so you get this thread based on total false equivalence. Sisters are to Space Marines, what Space Marines are to Custodes. Sure, 1 might be able to damage or even kill one given enough help, but 9 out of 1000 times, The custodian will ROFL Stomp the Astartes into paste. Sisters are not, nor have they ever been equal to Astartes. Give Tempestus Scions Power armor and years of training, and there would be zero difference.
   
 
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