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Made in us
Torture Victim in the Bowels of the Rock





Infantry Squad
M WS BS S T W A LD SV
Guardsmen 6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 2 6 5+
Heavy Weapon 6" 3+ 3+ 3 4 1 2 6 5+
Sergeant 6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 3 6 4+
Infantry Squad contains 4 Guardsmen and 1 Sergeant each armed with Lasguns, krak grenades, frag Grenades. And may include an additional fifteen models.
- The Sergeant may replace his Lasgun with two of the following: Las pistol, Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, Chainsword, Powersword, Power maul, Poweraxe.
- The Sergeant may replace is Lasgun with one of the following: Boltgun, Flamer, Plasmagun, Meltagun, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, Grenade launcher.
- One Guardsmen may take a Vox-Caster.
- One Guardsmen for every five models may replace his Lasgun with one of the following: Boltgun, Flamer, Plasmagun, Meltagun, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, Grenade Launcher
- One Guardsman for every ten models may replace his Lasgun with one of the following: Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Mortar, Heavy Flamer, Plasma Cannon, Multi-melta

Range TYPE S AP D Notes
Lasgun 24" Rapid Fire 2 3 -1 1 This weapon hits automatically within Rapid Fire range, in addition, this weapon may be fired while the model is in engagement range.
Shotgun 12" Assault 1 5 -2 2 This weapon may be fired while the model is in engagement range.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




So, the changes here are:
1) you can start with 5-man squads and scale to 20, no pre-set 10
2) you get 1 extra special weapon per 10 guard
3) Heavy Weapon squads... don't exist anymore? Not sure what's going on here
4) Lasguns and shotguns are insanely strong now, what in the world
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Also WS and BS went to 3+, Attacks on the guardsmen doubled, the heavy weapons dude gets +1S and everybody has Krak Grenades (which makes the Grenadiers strat on a 20-men unit hilarious.

Seriously that's a looot of buffs. They would have to increase a lot in price to get that and in my opinion that would not really be guard anymore. The WS/BS 3+ alone is... to much. And the weapons... autohitting lasguns... "pistol" shotguns with 5/-2/2... That's just... extreme.

How much would you take for that? 10/15 Points?

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





Wow this is incredibly bad. Not sure why guardsman went up to BS 3+ much less getting WS 3+ as well. I didn’t realize the bayonet drills had improved that much. On that note the average guardsman gets 2 attacks. Literally they now have more base attacks than a standard tactical marine. I’m glad the guard physical training regimen can outpace gene forging.

The weapons are almost worse. Each lasgun auto hitting at rapid fire range and at AP-1 is insane. Just 10 lasguns puts a little over 4 wounds on a terminator type profile. Against a MEQ profile it produces almost 7 wounds. Against Orks it’s over 13 wounds. If you add in orders you can effectively double that number so a 10 man guard squad can almost wipe out a 30 ork sized blob for only 55 points. Auto hitting on overwatch and getting to shoot twice by assaulting where you auto hit again is legitimately insane.

It only gets worse as you look at more of the rules. Cadian rerolls and Armageddon 18” rapid fire will be brutal.

Iron within, Iron without 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Guardsmen are, by modern-day Earth standards, elite troops. They are soldiers who have trained their butts off, armed with potent weapons and armor comparable to anything we would give ordinary soldiers.

They're small peanuts compared to most of the gak that goes around fighting in 40k. I wouldn't mind seeing Guardsmen going up to 6 or 7 PPM, with appropriate buffs... But you've gone way, WAY too far. In very odd ways too.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

You guys are being a bit harsh, BS3+ doesn't make much of a difference on Guardsmen when your Lasguns hit automatically for some reason.

Guard are meant to be cheap and expendable. Perhaps this would work on Tempestus, but nah, a Guardsman shouldn't have more attacks than a Tactical Marine. And a Shotgun is now better than a Heavy Bolter?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 15:02:34


   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





I applaud the attempt, and agree guardsmen need SOMETHING to help, but this. This is insane.

Why 2A base? (Hell, thats more than a bloodletter or equal to an Ork!)

Why are shotguns a heavy bolter shot that can be shot in close combat?

What would even be the point value you'd give each guardsmen? And if Guardsmen squads are this powerful I shudder to think how strong the actual elite infantry in the book would be to compete.

Guardsmen are absolute disposable meatshield horde. I'd like to see their max squad size increased and some other rules (maybe declare a detatchment to be infantry based or Mechanised based with bonuses/limitations) but everything in this suggestion just would be incredibly unfun and unbalanced.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Conscripts are the "disposable meatshield horde".

So either ditch Conscripts from the book and degrade Guardsmen to compensate, or make Guardsmen what they are supposed to actually be:
A standing army, trained to a relatively high standard.

The idea of the Guardsmen being "disposable meatshield horde" comes from wild misunderstandings of the actual competency of Guardsmen compared to Conscripts.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




This is not the power creep you are looking for....
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Even as a long term Guard player I think this is too much. You've given them better stats than Veterans and Stormtroopers/Scions.

Infantry Squads do need something, but I think small tweaks are better. Just brainstorming something like:

- Giving the Sergeant a lasgun again. Very small change with a surprisingly big impact. Basically an extra 10% additional firepower across every infantry squad.
- On the flip side allow Guardsmen to swap their lasguns for a laspistol and chainsword. That way people who want to play melee Guard can.
- Maybe something like Bolter Drill (Lasgun Drill?), except instead of extra shots, it's exploding 6's. So lasguns could get a couple of extra hits.
- AP-1 on lasguns might be better as a stratagem, something like "Fullpower Lasbolts".
- Bring back platoons, even something as basic as 1 platoon commander, 2 - 3 infantry squads, 0 - 1 special weapon squad, and 0 - 1 heavy weapon squad would be enough. Which means we can save points and CP on additional detachment taxes.
- Roll back Guardsmen points cost to 5 per model.
- Commissars Summary Execution should be changed back to kill a model and autopass. If that's too strong maybe it should be triggered only after the first model flees, so a squad would only ever lose a maximum of 2 models.
- Medi-packs should provide a 6+++ aura and not require a roll to heal wounds or bring a model back.
- Platoon and Company Standards need to be made more interesting. Just look at some of the Custode or Space Marine ones.

Just those would probably be enough. Bringing back platoons could save us 2 - 6 CP from having to take multiple detachments. Save us the sentinel brigade tax if you were instead wanting to take lots of infantry, or save the HQ tax from every additional detachment. Which means more points to put elsewhere.
   
Made in us
Torture Victim in the Bowels of the Rock





Wow, honestly wasn't expecting this to blow up overnight. Thank you.

These are napkin notes that I've taken from talking to several IG players about their complaints with the guardsmen squad. It takes 8 guardsmen to kill one marine but a guardsmen costs 1/4 of a marine, thus a guardsmen needs to be either 3 points per model or receive a significant power increase. Guardsmen hitting on 4s is bs. I intended these solutions to the problem to be ran up the flagpole and see which changes get people like to buff the guardsmen which didn't happen. Well lesson learned. So I feel I must explain the logic for each change.

-starting with the stat lines. Traditionally marines hit on 3+ and guardsmen hit on 4s but that isn't what marines are doing anymore. Marines hit on 2s with a reroll, I think it's time to put the thought of 3+ guardsmen on the table. 2 attacks because no melee AP and 1 attack really doesn't cut it. (Pun intended). Weapon teams are T4 because most of the heavy weapons have a blast shield on the model. Sergeant is SV 4+, this is not an amateur but a professional soldier.

- the sergeant I didn't understand he was limited to pistol and sword, you'd expect a guy who's been around that long, you'd expect his weapons card to be full.

-As far as squad size increase it was more of a call to bring back the platoon.

-Took inspiration from the US military's infantry doctrine. A squad is made of 2-3 fire teams, each fireteam consists of 1 fire team leader/ riflemen, 1 grenadier, 1 automatic riflemen, 1 assistant automatic riflemen/riflemen. I just replaced the grenadier with a special weapon and the automatic riflemen with a heavy weapon team. Again a ton of weapons being a great way to bring back the spirit of the platoon.

- the change to the lasgun was an attempt to make getting close to a guardsmen scary. The auto hit representing the guardsmen mag dumping the target and putting so many shots in the area that there is no way you didn't get hit.

- the shotgun was a way I thought of making a guardsmen really scary in close combat.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Think about how many points these guys would be.

For a point of comparison, 4 hits at S3 AP-1 D1 does 2/3rds a point of damage to a MEQ. 2 BS 3+ shots at S4 AP-1 D1 do 1/3rd a point of damage. Make that AP-2 and it only increases to 4/9ths.

In other words, a single Guardsmen with a Lasgun does more damage, if within 12", than an Intercessor does to a MEQ.

Also, MEQ hit on a 3+. One squad can be buffed to hit on a 2+, thanks to a Chaplain, but while RR1s to-hit is pretty dang common, hitting on a 2+ is not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 00:23:41


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Torture Victim in the Bowels of the Rock





Or you play dark angels which get army wide +1 to hit if they don't move. Oh look I'm near a near a captain, I get reroll 1s. I hit 98% of the time at 30" range.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Adriel wrote:
Or you play dark angels which get army wide +1 to hit if they don't move. Oh look I'm near a near a captain, I get reroll 1s. I hit 98% of the time at 30" range.
I did forget that.

But should a singular Guardsmen outdamage a Marine? And again, you provided no points costs-you surely don't think your improvements should come without a points bump, right?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Torture Victim in the Bowels of the Rock





As I said in my big reply, the guardsmen needs a large bump in power. The bump to rate of fire/ AP or the mag dump for auto-hits ability is needed. But I will concede that both at the same time is a little much for maintaining the same points cost.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
I did forget that.

But should a singular Guardsmen outdamage a Marine? And again, you provided no points costs-you surely don't think your improvements should come without a points bump, right?


This. Guardsmen just need more or better sources of buffs, more tactical options, and maybe more equipment options. Their statline shouldn't need to change.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Adriel wrote:
Wow, honestly wasn't expecting this to blow up overnight. Thank you.

These are napkin notes that I've taken from talking to several IG players about their complaints with the guardsmen squad. It takes 8 guardsmen to kill one marine but a guardsmen costs 1/4 of a marine, thus a guardsmen needs to be either 3 points per model or receive a significant power increase. Guardsmen hitting on 4s is bs. I intended these solutions to the problem to be ran up the flagpole and see which changes get people like to buff the guardsmen which didn't happen. Well lesson learned. So I feel I must explain the logic for each change.

-starting with the stat lines. Traditionally marines hit on 3+ and guardsmen hit on 4s but that isn't what marines are doing anymore. Marines hit on 2s with a reroll, I think it's time to put the thought of 3+ guardsmen on the table. 2 attacks because no melee AP and 1 attack really doesn't cut it. (Pun intended). Weapon teams are T4 because most of the heavy weapons have a blast shield on the model. Sergeant is SV 4+, this is not an amateur but a professional soldier.

- the sergeant I didn't understand he was limited to pistol and sword, you'd expect a guy who's been around that long, you'd expect his weapons card to be full.

-As far as squad size increase it was more of a call to bring back the platoon.

-Took inspiration from the US military's infantry doctrine. A squad is made of 2-3 fire teams, each fireteam consists of 1 fire team leader/ riflemen, 1 grenadier, 1 automatic riflemen, 1 assistant automatic riflemen/riflemen. I just replaced the grenadier with a special weapon and the automatic riflemen with a heavy weapon team. Again a ton of weapons being a great way to bring back the spirit of the platoon.

- the change to the lasgun was an attempt to make getting close to a guardsmen scary. The auto hit representing the guardsmen mag dumping the target and putting so many shots in the area that there is no way you didn't get hit.

- the shotgun was a way I thought of making a guardsmen really scary in close combat.

Thanks for providing your reasoning. As you can tell, many of us were wondering what you were going for here. That said, I feel like you might be overvaluing the abilities of guardsmen, or undervaluing the abilities of the various other forces of the galaxy. Guardsmen are competent soldiers, absolutely. Hitting on a 4+ instead of a 5+ is a reflection of that. Marines (and basically every other "elite" army) hitting on a 3+ is a reflection of the fact that such units are simply that much more impressive than the admittedly very impressive guardsman.

Can we agree that a cybernetically-enhanced skitarii, bolter-toting sister of battle, or samurai space elf with a millenia of battlefield experience should be markedly more impressive than the average guardsman? And can we agree that my space elves should probably be outnumbered when facing off against your guard army? What you have here would be a pretty good representation of something like a veteran squad or some sort of storm trooper variant. But as rank-and-file, I feel like these rules fail to represent their unit's fluff because they're outshooting their much more elite counterparts. And even if you priced them appropriately, you'd then, by necessity, end up with an army that doesn't "feel numerous" because they can only field about as many dudes as my dying-race space elves can.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Conscripts are the "disposable meatshield horde".

So either ditch Conscripts from the book and degrade Guardsmen to compensate, or make Guardsmen what they are supposed to actually be:
A standing army, trained to a relatively high standard.

The idea of the Guardsmen being "disposable meatshield horde" comes from wild misunderstandings of the actual competency of Guardsmen compared to Conscripts.

Eh. I mean, the better solution probably would have been to just differentiate their costs enough to make both units feel worthwhile without stepping on each other's toes back when they overhauled a bunch of points costs as part of 9th's release. Guardsman stats are humble, but they also seem like a decent baseline for a competent, trained human. -1 to hit and an ability to execute complicated orders is about what I would expect from conscripts in comparison, and that's what we have.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 03:07:36


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

No. Literally the answer is that Conscripts need to become a lesser armored, trashier weapon toting, garbage unit that's Auxilia keyworded while Guardsmen are BS4 with Regiment.

And that's assuming you don't actually make a real, legitimate effort and do the proper thing: burn the book to the ground, and fluff it with Guilliman bringing the Imperial Army back as a thing and using the Regimental "looks" as the basis of archetypes for things.

Valhallan greatcoats(basically no visible armor or gear, just coats and hats really) being the basis for an Auxilia Conscript unit with laslocks or autoguns as options.

Mordian fancy uniforms with some armored vests and chased pauldrons for an Officio Prefectus unit.

etc, etc, etc.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Adriel wrote:
Or you play dark angels which get army wide +1 to hit if they don't move. Oh look I'm near a near a captain, I get reroll 1s. I hit 98% of the time at 30" range.

That's literally one subfaction, and one that arguably needs reworking anyway.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut







These are napkin notes that I've taken from talking to several IG players about their complaints with the guardsmen squad. It takes 8 guardsmen to kill one marine but a guardsmen costs 1/4 of a marine...
The problem here isn't the guardsmen, it's the increasing toughness of the marines. Guard does reasonable damage to most everything else.

-starting with the stat lines. Traditionally marines hit on 3+ and guardsmen hit on 4s.
Good enough. Guard infantry are for bodies, many cheap wounds. If you want good shooting, get scions, no need for change

-As far as squad size increase it was more of a call to bring back the platoon.
Would like that

- the change to the lasgun was an attempt to make getting close to a guardsmen scary.
Getting close to guardsmen with FRFSRF is scary, except to over resillient marines


- the shotgun was a way I thought of making a guardsmen really scary in close combat.
can shotgun vets if you want.

I like a lot of these ideas:
Jarms48 wrote:
Even as a long term Guard player I think this is too much. You've given them better stats than Veterans and Stormtroopers/Scions.

Infantry Squads do need something, but I think small tweaks are better. Just brainstorming something like:

- Giving the Sergeant a lasgun again. Very small change with a surprisingly big impact. Basically an extra 10% additional firepower across every infantry squad.
- On the flip side allow Guardsmen to swap their lasguns for a laspistol and chainsword. That way people who want to play melee Guard can.
- Maybe something like Bolter Drill (Lasgun Drill?), except instead of extra shots, it's exploding 6's. So lasguns could get a couple of extra hits.
- AP-1 on lasguns might be better as a stratagem, something like "Fullpower Lasbolts".
- Bring back platoons, even something as basic as 1 platoon commander, 2 - 3 infantry squads, 0 - 1 special weapon squad, and 0 - 1 heavy weapon squad would be enough. Which means we can save points and CP on additional detachment taxes.
- Roll back Guardsmen points cost to 5 per model.
- Commissars Summary Execution should be changed back to kill a model and autopass. If that's too strong maybe it should be triggered only after the first model flees, so a squad would only ever lose a maximum of 2 models.
- Medi-packs should provide a 6+++ aura and not require a roll to heal wounds or bring a model back.
- Platoon and Company Standards need to be made more interesting. Just look at some of the Custode or Space Marine ones.

Just those would probably be enough. Bringing back platoons could save us 2 - 6 CP from having to take multiple detachments. Save us the sentinel brigade tax if you were instead wanting to take lots of infantry, or save the HQ tax from every additional detachment. Which means more points to put elsewhere.

   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Kanluwen wrote:
No. Literally the answer is that Conscripts need to become a lesser armored, trashier weapon toting, garbage unit that's Auxilia keyworded while Guardsmen are BS4 with Regiment.

And that's assuming you don't actually make a real, legitimate effort and do the proper thing: burn the book to the ground, and fluff it with Guilliman bringing the Imperial Army back as a thing and using the Regimental "looks" as the basis of archetypes for things.

Valhallan greatcoats(basically no visible armor or gear, just coats and hats really) being the basis for an Auxilia Conscript unit with laslocks or autoguns as options.

Mordian fancy uniforms with some armored vests and chased pauldrons for an Officio Prefectus unit.

etc, etc, etc.

Sure let's just invalidate nearly every AM player's army for literally no reason. Sorry, we wiped the entire culture and background of your army in order to replace it with a single unit. Oh what you wanted to make a converted army with some of the multiple human scale kits from GW? Sorry, they don't fit into these arbitrary bland roles so that's a no-go.

You do understand flak vests can be worn underneath uniforms right? And that Autoguns and Lasguns have the same weapon profiles with only certain strategems and special rules affecting Lasguns?

Guilliman bringing back the Imperial Army would be the same as him bringing back the Legions, the Army was split into the AM and Navy so that neither group could effectively rebel and threaten the Imperium. Also, the Army was just as varied as the AM. Uniforms, tactics, and culture were still a huge factor in the differing Army regiments. The only time the Army had similar tactics/uniforms was at the Siege of Terra, where 90% of the regiments were conscripts, whose job BTW was to be used for holding actions to prevent losses among Astartes/Mechanicus/Titan forces who were infinitely more valuable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 12:58:39


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
No. Literally the answer is that Conscripts need to become a lesser armored, trashier weapon toting, garbage unit that's Auxilia keyworded while Guardsmen are BS4 with Regiment.

And that's assuming you don't actually make a real, legitimate effort and do the proper thing: burn the book to the ground, and fluff it with Guilliman bringing the Imperial Army back as a thing and using the Regimental "looks" as the basis of archetypes for things.

Valhallan greatcoats(basically no visible armor or gear, just coats and hats really) being the basis for an Auxilia Conscript unit with laslocks or autoguns as options.

Mordian fancy uniforms with some armored vests and chased pauldrons for an Officio Prefectus unit.

etc, etc, etc.

Sure let's just invalidate nearly every AM player's army for literally no reason. Sorry, we wiped the entire culture and background of your army in order to replace it with a single unit. Oh what you wanted to make a converted army with some of the multiple human scale kits from GW? Sorry, they don't fit into these arbitrary bland roles so that's a no-go.

You do understand flak vests can be worn underneath uniforms right? And that Autoguns and Lasguns have the same weapon profiles with only certain strategems and special rules affecting Lasguns?

Guilliman bringing back the Imperial Army would be the same as him bringing back the Legions, the Army was split into the AM and Navy so that neither group could effectively rebel and threaten the Imperium. Also, the Army was just as varied as the AM. Uniforms, tactics, and culture were still a huge factor in the differing Army regiments. The only time the Army had similar tactics/uniforms was at the Siege of Terra, where 90% of the regiments were conscripts, whose job BTW was to be used for holding actions to prevent losses among Astartes/Mechanicus/Titan forces who were infinitely more valuable.


The greatcoat Guardsmen don’t actually wear flak vests, if I recall they’re made up of layers of flak weave to get similar results.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






So all Guardsmen wear a variant of Flak armour which can come in multiple designs. Not sure what the disagreement here is.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Gert wrote:

Sure let's just invalidate nearly every AM player's army for literally no reason. Sorry, we wiped the entire culture and background of your army in order to replace it with a single unit. Oh what you wanted to make a converted army with some of the multiple human scale kits from GW? Sorry, they don't fit into these arbitrary bland roles so that's a no-go.

Speaking as someone with over 150 Cadians rocking the FW respirator kits, three squads of Kasrkin that no longer have rules or any kind of meaningful role besides "They're pretend Scions"? Zero sympathy.

And frankly, anyone who thinks "culture and background" comes down to "funny hats or coats" is deluding themselves.

You do understand flak vests can be worn underneath uniforms right?

Sure. Do you understand that "flak vests" are not "flak armor"?
Flak Armor is supposed to be the chest armor plus the pauldrons plus the helmet, with optional waist, wrist, and knee armor plating.

And that Autoguns and Lasguns have the same weapon profiles with only certain strategems and special rules affecting Lasguns?

Gee, it's almost like that's why I would have suggested such a thing!



Guilliman bringing back the Imperial Army would be the same as him bringing back the Legions, the Army was split into the AM and Navy so that neither group could effectively rebel and threaten the Imperium. Also, the Army was just as varied as the AM. Uniforms, tactics, and culture were still a huge factor in the differing Army regiments. The only time the Army had similar tactics/uniforms was at the Siege of Terra, where 90% of the regiments were conscripts, whose job BTW was to be used for holding actions to prevent losses among Astartes/Mechanicus/Titan forces who were infinitely more valuable.

Nobody said a single thing about the Navy.


The point, which you've seemed to have missed, is that the Army had specialized regiments that were what we kept seeing talked about...but for every Lucifer Blacks or whatever named+fluffed out in-depth, with their unique armor and kit? There was a hundred nameless regiments that just wore bog-standard gear produced en masse on Forge Worlds.

Too much stock has been placed on the outliers by players. That's a huuuuuuuuuuge issue and unfortunately GW has been feeding into it constantly. It's even right there in the start of your post, bizarrely equating "culture and background" with the look alone of the regiment.
   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

 Kanluwen wrote:

Speaking as someone with over 150 Cadians rocking the FW respirator kits, three squads of Kasrkin that no longer have rules or any kind of meaningful role besides "They're pretend Scions"? Zero sympathy.


Ummm, just because GW fleshed out Stormtroopers generally, and gave them a sub-faction, a "high gothic name" and "generic" plastic models doesn't invalidate your Kasrkins as far as I can tell? (I mean, GW blowing up their homeworld gives you recruitment issues, but, details.)
The standard doctrine for Scions if you're not taking one of their six named regiments is "Stormtroopers".

Was there a particular Kasrkin rule you used to have that you're missing now?

If you don't feel like your Kasrkins are sufficiently supported, you can sell them for a lot of money on ebay, plenty of us would love to run them with the Scions/Stormtrooper rules.


As to the OP; 5 Man infantry squads would be a nice option for super cheap screening. Just throwaway 30 point rifleman squads.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 15:06:45


Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
 Kanluwen wrote:


Speaking as someone with over 150 Cadians rocking the FW respirator kits, three squads of Kasrkin that no longer have rules or any kind of meaningful role besides "They're pretend Scions"? Zero sympathy.

And frankly, anyone who thinks "culture and background" comes down to "funny hats or coats" is deluding themselves.

Not a single one of those Cadians is unusable and as for the Kasrkin, AFAIK they haven't had unique rules since at least the 5th edition codex from 2009. They were used to represent Stormtroopers and Stormtroopers have become Scions, so people saying "use them as Scions" are saying "use them as the unit they've been used as for a decade".
As for culture and background, a miniature can only convey culture and background through visual means. If you asked someone to describe a British WW2 soldier they would tell you khaki uniform with a Brodie helm. If you asked someone to describe a Valhallan they would say winter coats and Ushankas. The AM has more in common with Napoleonic armies with bright uniforms and easily identifiable allegiances than it does with modern armies equipping all soldiers with basically the same gear.
40k is a miniatures game and the current AM model range (outdated and OOP as it is) gives players an easy way to determine what army subfaction they are facing by simply looking at it. For example:
"Ah I can see winter coats and Ushankas, I am playing against Valhallans, they get good morale and vehicle buffs".
Your version would have it like this:
"There are so many units with different models I don't know who I am fighting".

Spoiler:

Sure. Do you understand that "flak vests" are not "flak armor"?
Flak Armor is supposed to be the chest armor plus the pauldrons plus the helmet, with optional waist, wrist, and knee armor plating.

Someone pointed out that multiple regiments make use of layered flak jackets that serve the same purpose. Armour is a catch-all term for defensive clothing so I don't see why every single unit with Flak Armour needs a huge breastplate and shoulder pads.

Spoiler:

Nobody said a single thing about the Navy.


The point, which you've seemed to have missed, is that the Army had specialized regiments that were what we kept seeing talked about...but for every Lucifer Blacks or whatever named+fluffed out in-depth, with their unique armor and kit? There was a hundred nameless regiments that just wore bog-standard gear produced en masse on Forge Worlds.

Too much stock has been placed on the outliers by players. That's a huuuuuuuuuuge issue and unfortunately GW has been feeding into it constantly. It's even right there in the start of your post, bizarrely equating "culture and background" with the look alone of the regiment.

The Imperial Army was the amalgamated forces of the Solar Auxilia, Militia forces, Army regiments, and the Navy. The Imperial Navy as its own branch didn't exist until after the Heresy. To bring back the Imperial Army, Guilliman would have to dissolve both the AM and the Navy.
The only "specialised" regiments of the Army were the Solar Auxilia who were disbanded and turned into either AM regiments or Navy armsmen. They literally do not exist anymore.
"Too much stock has been placed on outliers" what the heck does that even mean? People have enjoyed the choice of multiple models to represent their armies?
   
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Right behind you.

VonGerrow wrote:

Ummm, just because GW fleshed out Stormtroopers generally, and gave them a sub-faction, a "high gothic name" and "generic" plastic models doesn't invalidate your Kasrkins as far as I can tell? (I mean, GW blowing up their homeworld gives you recruitment issues, but, details.)
The standard doctrine for Scions if you're not taking one of their six named regiments is "Stormtroopers".

Was there a particular Kasrkin rule you used to have that you're missing now?

Is this a serious question?

Kasrkin, when first introduced, were a Troop choice in the Cadian Shock Army list from the Eye of Terror book. They were Stormtroopers minus the whole "Covert Operations" bend. No Deep Strike or Infiltrate, whole squad rocked Hellguns with Sgt optionally being able to take a Hellpistol+ccw instead of Hellgun if you wanted, a vox-caster on a model, and two Kasrkin could take flamers, grenade launchers, meltaguns, or plasma guns while the whole squad could get Melta-Bombs and could grab a Chimera as a Dedicated Transport.

Cut to the Doctrines book!
Cadians had the Grenadiers and Storm Trooper Squads doctrines, allowing for you to take 3x units of Storm Troopers as Troop choices with no DS/Infiltrate and another 3x units of Storm Troopers as Elite choices with the DS/Infiltrate options. Also the start of the "no model, no rules" era as the Storm Trooper Squads lost "hellguns on sergeants" options that early.
Then there was the Cruddace book, but we don't talk about that.

The sad part is that DKoK Grenadiers ended up getting a lot of the loadouts and concepts that Kasrkin had.

If you don't feel like your Kasrkins are sufficiently supported, you can sell them for a lot of money on ebay, plenty of us would love to run them with the Scions/Stormtrooper rules.

Not enough money to make me want to let go of some my beloved models to some goons on eBay who are just gonna use them as proxies for Scions because they're cheapskates.



As to the OP; 5 Man infantry squads would be a nice option for super cheap screening. Just throwaway 30 point rifleman squads.

Frankly, they just need to give Infantry Squads "fireteams" that let you do things like breaking them up


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:

Not a single one of those Cadians is unusable and as for the Kasrkin, AFAIK they haven't had unique rules since at least the 5th edition codex from 2009. They were used to represent Stormtroopers and Stormtroopers have become Scions, so people saying "use them as Scions" are saying "use them as the unit they've been used as for a decade".

And Valhallan models have never had special rules, so what's your point?

Kasrkin actually had unique rules at one point.

As for culture and background, a miniature can only convey culture and background through visual means. If you asked someone to describe a British WW2 soldier they would tell you khaki uniform with a Brodie helm.

Cool, now do Canadians or South Africans or Australians or or or...
If you asked someone to describe a Valhallan they would say winter coats and Ushankas. The AM has more in common with Napoleonic armies with bright uniforms and easily identifiable allegiances than it does with modern armies equipping all soldiers with basically the same gear.

Except for that pesky part where they mention things being standardized for warzones, I guess?

40k is a miniatures game and the current AM model range (outdated and OOP as it is) gives players an easy way to determine what army subfaction they are facing by simply looking at it. For example:
"Ah I can see winter coats and Ushankas, I am playing against Valhallans, they get good morale and vehicle buffs".

"Ah I can see winter coats and Ushankas. The person is using Valhallan models!"

That's the correct statement to make, since anyone can use any models for anything. But you likely knew that and chose to make the disingenuous argument anyways, so kudos!

Your version would have it like this:
"There are so many units with different models I don't know who I am fighting".

Nah. My version would have it like this:
"I see greatcoats and autoguns, I guess they're using Conscripts! That probably means Valhallans!"
"I see armoured torsos, shoulderpads, and lasguns. I guess they have plain old Infantry Squads! That probably means Cadians!"
"I see fancy armor and uniforms...uhoh, that's Prefectus territory! Probably Mordians!"

Visual identification is a great thing when there's a legitimate archetype at play. It's why the current system of "everyone's a Guardsman!" is an awful one. It's the whole reason why Whiteshields, a Cadian concept from the Eye of Terror book for its "Youth Army Platoons" got shoveled over to be an "Everybody has them!" thing for Conscripts.


Someone pointed out that multiple regiments make use of layered flak jackets that serve the same purpose. Armour is a catch-all term for defensive clothing so I don't see why every single unit with Flak Armour needs a huge breastplate and shoulder pads.

If you want to get nitpickily technical about it? The longcoats aren't "flak jackets". They're jackets lined with flak plating...and they're explicitly called out in the Uplifting Primer as being less protective than Flak Armour.


The Imperial Army was the amalgamated forces of the Solar Auxilia, Militia forces, Army regiments, and the Navy. The Imperial Navy as its own branch didn't exist until after the Heresy. To bring back the Imperial Army, Guilliman would have to dissolve both the AM and the Navy.
The only "specialised" regiments of the Army were the Solar Auxilia who were disbanded and turned into either AM regiments or Navy armsmen. They literally do not exist anymore.

(Citations Needed)

I'll admit, I stopped reading a lot of the HH novels after awhile...but it sounds more and more like you're talking about stuff from the tabletop aspect not the actual lore? Because there were definitely specialized regiments called out in the novels...and even though specialized? Their gear had a basis in the "common" gear for the non-specialized regiments. Regiments had to be fairly important or heavily established to get away with having their own unique gear.

"Too much stock has been placed on outliers" what the heck does that even mean? People have enjoyed the choice of multiple models to represent their armies?

It means that people like yourself insist upon pretending that every single regiment from a world is actually one of its specialized regiments and pushing for that mentality to be the one that needs to happen.
Not every Cadian regiment is a Shock Troop regiment, not every Catachan regiment is a Jungle Fighters regiment, not every Tallarn are Desert Raiders, etc etc etc.

Guard, as a whole, are a mess right now and a big part of that is GW's refusal to actively rework the infantry variants into something meaningful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 16:03:06


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
 Kanluwen wrote:

And Valhallan models have never had special rules, so what's your point?

Must have missed the part where Regimental Doctrines were a thing. And again Kasrkin haven't had rules for over a decade.

Spoiler:

Cool, now do Canadians or South Africans or Australians or or or...

Do you mean like Sikh troops who were allowed to wear turbans? Or Scottish regiments who were allowed to wear Tartan? Of course, only choosing those nations that were part of the British Commonwealth and as such received British equipment is a fairly disingenuous point to make isn't it?

Spoiler:

Except for that pesky part where they mention things being standardized for warzones, I guess?

I mean the AM codex states that regiments are "equipped in the manner of their homeworld", further stating "Troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the AM is the Lasgun". So, no. Equipment is not standardised through warzones.

Spoiler:

"Ah I can see winter coats and Ushankas. The person is using Valhallan models!"

That's the correct statement to make, since anyone can use any models for anything. But you likely knew that and chose to make the disingenuous argument anyways, so kudos!

You are correct anyone can use any models they want to represent whatever they want. Except, that premise immediately falls apart as soon as the discussion needs to be had about "wait what regiment are you playing?". If I play a game with a Cadian army, with full Cadian markings/colours, and say I'm playing Catachans, then my opponent might be confused but likely be OK with it. If I do this and change regiment every single game I play, the reaction will not be as courteous.

Spoiler:

Nah. My version would have it like this:
"I see greatcoats and autoguns, I guess they're using Conscripts! That probably means Valhallans!"
"I see armoured torsos, shoulderpads, and lasguns. I guess they have plain old Infantry Squads! That probably means Cadians!"
"I see fancy armor and uniforms...uhoh, that's Prefectus territory! Probably Mordians!"

Except that everyone has conscripts/infantry squads/commissars. What you've done is ignore all the background of each of those regiments and the AM as a whole.

Spoiler:

If you want to get nitpickily technical about it? The longcoats aren't "flak jackets". They're jackets lined with flak plating...and they're explicitly called out in the Uplifting Primer as being less protective than Flak Armour.

There can't be a scale for different protection levels of flak jackets in 40k. It's a game based on the D6 so having a generic 5+ flak armour catch-all for AM works perfectly fine.

Spoiler:

(Citations Needed)

I'll admit, I stopped reading a lot of the HH novels after awhile...but it sounds more and more like you're talking about stuff from the tabletop aspect not the actual lore? Because there were definitely specialized regiments called out in the novels...and even though specialized? Their gear had a basis in the "common" gear for the non-specialized regiments. Regiments had to be fairly important or heavily established to get away with having their own unique gear.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Army
Citation provided.
Again the only specialised regiments ever mentioned are those of the Solar Auxilia who no longer exist in 40k. And just to clarify something, the regiments of the Army would have had maybe a few hundred years of culture to build on and nearly all of the famous regiments had distinct uniforms cultural practices. The Imperial Army's unifying feature was again Lasguns/Lasrifles and basic variations of flak armour.

Spoiler:

It means that people like yourself insist upon pretending that every single regiment from a world is actually one of its specialized regiments and pushing for that mentality to be the one that needs to happen.
Not every Cadian regiment is a Shock Troop regiment, not every Catachan regiment is a Jungle Fighters regiment, not every Tallarn are Desert Raiders, etc etc etc.

It's not pretending if that's the reality of the background. Catachan Jungle Fighters. Cadian Shock Troops. The second part of the name isn't a doctrine type is a nickname derived from their culture. The Tallarn are "Desert Raiders" because Tallarn is a desert planet after it was nuked by the Iron Warriors. Vostroyans are "Firstborn" because they are literally only made up of first born sons thanks to the Imperium making silly demands.
   
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Right behind you.

 Gert wrote:

Must have missed the part where Regimental Doctrines were a thing. And again Kasrkin haven't had rules for over a decade.

I must have missed the part where Valhallan Regimental Doctrines only applied to Valhallan Ice Warriors...

Valhallans have never had rules specific to their models. End of story. Pretending otherwise does nobody any good.
Kasrkin did have rules specific to their models and lost them. People got by with "counts as" for some time, but now Scions exist and the generic catch-all of the "Stormtrooper" is gone.
Spoiler:

Cool, now do Canadians or South Africans or Australians or or or...

Do you mean like Sikh troops who were allowed to wear turbans? Or Scottish regiments who were allowed to wear Tartan? Of course, only choosing those nations that were part of the British Commonwealth and as such received British equipment is a fairly disingenuous point to make isn't it?

I'm not the one who brought it up in the first place, I just worked with what you initially posted. One could tell Sikh troops by more than the fact that they "were allowed to wear turbans"...I really shouldn't have to explain why.

The Scots is a good point, but again it really didn't mean diddly in the grand scheme of things did it? Which was the whole point of what I said, as "culture and background" is a pointless thing to represent on the miniatures unless it has an in-game effect.
You want to argue for Tanith? I'll back you on that. Their camo-cloaks are "part of their culture and background"...but also would have an in-game effect.

Spoiler:

Except for that pesky part where they mention things being standardized for warzones, I guess?

I mean the AM codex states that regiments are "equipped in the manner of their homeworld", further stating "Troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the AM is the Lasgun". So, no. Equipment is not standardised through warzones.

Funny how you ignored the part on the page across from that:
If serving together for extended durations, attached units tend to adopt their foster-regiment's uniform and unit markings. This not only helps to avoid friendly-fire incidents, but also aids in promoting comradeship with the soldiers they will be fighting and dying alongside.




Spoiler:

"Ah I can see winter coats and Ushankas. The person is using Valhallan models!"

That's the correct statement to make, since anyone can use any models for anything. But you likely knew that and chose to make the disingenuous argument anyways, so kudos!

You are correct anyone can use any models they want to represent whatever they want. Except, that premise immediately falls apart as soon as the discussion needs to be had about "wait what regiment are you playing?". If I play a game with a Cadian army, with full Cadian markings/colours, and say I'm playing Catachans, then my opponent might be confused but likely be OK with it. If I do this and change regiment every single game I play, the reaction will not be as courteous.

What you seem to be either wilfully ignoring or just outright failing to grasp?

Armies need a distinctive visual language. Guard do not have that. That is literally the whole premise behind what I've proposed time and time again.

You can tell if someone is running Scions currently. Why? Because they have a distinctive look to them.
You cannot tell if someone is running Conscripts, Infantry Squads, or Veterans unless they actively make an effort to differentiate things. And you people want individual regiments represented? Do you not understand how ridiculous this is?

The simplest and most effective way to get this across, in the end, is by actively differentiating units. Look at a DKoK force. One can identify the different units easily. Grenadiers have more plating, cabling to their hellguns, and the 'skull' faceplate attached to their masks while the 'standard' Korpsman is just rocking a lasgun, flak armour, and a no-frills gasmask.

Spoiler:

Nah. My version would have it like this:
"I see greatcoats and autoguns, I guess they're using Conscripts! That probably means Valhallans!"
"I see armoured torsos, shoulderpads, and lasguns. I guess they have plain old Infantry Squads! That probably means Cadians!"
"I see fancy armor and uniforms...uhoh, that's Prefectus territory! Probably Mordians!"

Except that everyone has conscripts/infantry squads/commissars. What you've done is ignore all the background of each of those regiments and the AM as a whole.

You do know that Officio Prefectus isn't just the Commissars, right?
And that nothing stops these things from being dual kits, right? Or from there being rules allowing for those units to be given a different keyword based upon the <Regiment> of your Warlord?

Oh yeah, and not everyone has Conscripts or Commissars. Commissars were, prior to the Cruddacing, supposed to be a rare sight in Cadian forces with their officers instead being trained by the Schola Psykana to know what to look for in Sanctioned Psykers.

Of course, they also didn't have a PDF--instead having the Interior Guard, full-fledged Guard Regiments that rotated on-world, but that's a whole other story.


Spoiler:

If you want to get nitpickily technical about it? The longcoats aren't "flak jackets". They're jackets lined with flak plating...and they're explicitly called out in the Uplifting Primer as being less protective than Flak Armour.

There can't be a scale for different protection levels of flak jackets in 40k. It's a game based on the D6 so having a generic 5+ flak armour catch-all for AM works perfectly fine.

Sure there can be.

Flak Jackets/Vests: 6+ save.
Flak Armour: 5+ save.

Spoiler:

(Citations Needed)

I'll admit, I stopped reading a lot of the HH novels after awhile...but it sounds more and more like you're talking about stuff from the tabletop aspect not the actual lore? Because there were definitely specialized regiments called out in the novels...and even though specialized? Their gear had a basis in the "common" gear for the non-specialized regiments. Regiments had to be fairly important or heavily established to get away with having their own unique gear.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Army
Citation provided.
Again the only specialised regiments ever mentioned are those of the Solar Auxilia who no longer exist in 40k. And just to clarify something, the regiments of the Army would have had maybe a few hundred years of culture to build on and nearly all of the famous regiments had distinct uniforms cultural practices. The Imperial Army's unifying feature was again Lasguns/Lasrifles and basic variations of flak armour.

I'd suggest you go pop a read of "Legion" by Dan Abnett, because the Lucifer Blacks are definitely "mentioned". They even made it into the Beast saga post-Heresy.

Spoiler:

It means that people like yourself insist upon pretending that every single regiment from a world is actually one of its specialized regiments and pushing for that mentality to be the one that needs to happen.
Not every Cadian regiment is a Shock Troop regiment, not every Catachan regiment is a Jungle Fighters regiment, not every Tallarn are Desert Raiders, etc etc etc.

It's not pretending if that's the reality of the background. Catachan Jungle Fighters. Cadian Shock Troops. The second part of the name isn't a doctrine type is a nickname derived from their culture. The Tallarn are "Desert Raiders" because Tallarn is a desert planet after it was nuked by the Iron Warriors. Vostroyans are "Firstborn" because they are literally only made up of first born sons thanks to the Imperium making silly demands.

The infantry regiments of Cadia are known as Shock Troops...

The infantry regiments of Catachan...


I can go on, if you want. Hell even the Vostroyan lore doesn't preclude there being other regiments, it's just mentioned that it's "seen as an honor to serve in the tank crews and Firstborn infantry regiments".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 18:34:29


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

If you give Flak jackets a 6+ save you've just demoted them to the level of leather armour.

I can understand wanting more visual and functional differences for conscripts/infantry/veterans - that I would agree with.

But deciding to use the regiment kits to achieve that seems entirely backwards and unnecessary.

My main concern for Guard is that the scale of the game has escalated too far above them. The humble 10 man squad is useless as anything other than a speed bump. Their attacks so anemic it's barely even worth bothering to roll when you're confronted with 2 wound Astartes as standard.
This isn't something you can actually fix unless you start to get silly.
   
 
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