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Dark Eldar "precision blows" and Deathwing "Inexorable" interaction  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot






Hey, we were playing a game the other day and a weird wording came up and it boils down to the question, does the "Inexorable" warlord trait Belial and other Deathwing warlords have recude the mortal wounds taken from the Succubus "Precision Blows" warlord trait? here is the wording and the issue is everyone can see how either interpretation seems to make sense.

Inexorable: Each Time an attack is allocated to this warlord, subtract 1 from that attacks damage characteristic (to a min of 1)

Precision blows: Each time an unmodified hit roll of 6 is made for a melee attack made by this warlord, the target unit suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon used for that attack and the attack sequence ends.

The question is when Inexorable states subtract 1 from that attacks "Damage characteristic (to a min of 1) does that mean it subtracts it from the "Damage characteristic of the weapon used for that attack" as by the use of the word characteristic it makes me think it does but the wording here is so dodgy I really cant decide on the correct interpretation.
For anyone wondering what we did, we removed both models as if it did go through he would die and if it didn't the succubus would die.

Future thanks for your views
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






While I'm not an expert, I believe that the Inexorable only affects the normal attack. The wording of Inexorable specifies that it reduces the damage characteristic of any attack received, not the damaged characteristic of the weapon making that attack. Precision Blows on the other hand bases the Mortal Wounds on the damage characteristic of the weapon used rather than the attack made as there are a number of abilities that can alter the stats of an attack made, but not the weapon used to make it. Therefore, in this situation I believe that while Inexorable would reduce the damage done by the normal attack, the Mortal Wounds applied by Precision Blows would still be a number equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon used to make the attack.

In example, you roll a 6 to hit with a Damage 2 weapon. Inexorable would reduce the normal attack damage to 1, but the due to Precision Blows there are 2 Mortal Wounds automatically applied instead of the normal damage.

At least I think it would be instead based on the wording of Precision Blows. If it's on top of, then Inexorable reduces the normal damage to 1 and 2 additional Mortal Wounds are applied on top of that. That's how it would work for any ability that doesn't replace the normal attack like this one seems to.

The big thing to recognize here is that Inexorable only reduces the damage characteristic of an attack, while Precision Blows simply applies Mortal Wounds equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon used to attack when you roll a natural 6 to hit.
   
Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot






Hmm, that seems fair to me and makes sense, ty for the input
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Inexorable doesnt work against MW, because its 1 damage, and its applies one at a time. If the inexorable unit would suffer 2MW its not reduced to 1, because its 1 at a time, and it cannot be reduced below 1.

MORTAL WOUNDS
Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that
no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal
wound inflicts 1 point of damage on the target unit, and they are
always applied one at a time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 09:01:31


 
   
Made in it
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

I think you pose the question in reverse: if a +1 Damage applies to the weapon stat (by a drug or a temporary bonus or any other source) would you think you should deal more Mortal Wounds?

If yes, the also Inexorable applies.
If not, it does not.

Thinking in perspective helps you abstract from the specific advantage/disadvantage of a certain situation.

Intuitively I would agree with SergeantSilver, but GW can literally do and have done anything (see the interaction between -1 and rerolls in 8th... basically the opposite of common sense).
So, who really knows?

And, btw, P5freak above entirely missed the point.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

What is the question ? Would inexorable reduce the damage characteristic from a damage 2 weapon to 1, which would also reduce MW to 1 ?
   
Made in it
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

Yes.

Your answer is about how Mortal Wound are resolved (1 by 1), hence so Inexorable doesn't apply.
It is the correct answer: to a different question.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Inexorable does not reduce the attacks damage characteristic by 1, because precision blows never gets to the allocate attack step (where inexorable comes into play), which is after attack and wound rolls. Precision blows never goes beyond step 1, because when a 6 is rolled the attack sequence ends.


Attack sequence
1. Hit roll
2. Wound roll
3. Allocate attacks
4. Saving throw
5. Inflict Damage


Inexorable: Each Time an attack is allocated to this warlord, subtract 1 from that attacks damage characteristic (to a min of 1)


Precision blows: Each time an unmodified hit roll of 6 is made for a melee attack made by this warlord, the target unit suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon used for that attack and the attack sequence ends.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/09 11:30:49


 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





p5freak explains it best, IMHO. Precision Blows triggers on the hit roll step of the attack sequence, while Inexorable triggers on the Allocate Attacks step of the attack sequence. If you roll a 6 to hit, that attack never gets to trigger Inexorable.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

I concur with that analysis.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Spoiler:
Cybtroll wrote:I think you pose the question in reverse: if a +1 Damage applies to the weapon stat (by a drug or a temporary bonus or any other source) would you think you should deal more Mortal Wounds?

If yes, the also Inexorable applies.
If not, it does not.

Thinking in perspective helps you abstract from the specific advantage/disadvantage of a certain situation.

Intuitively I would agree with SergeantSilver, but GW can literally do and have done anything (see the interaction between -1 and rerolls in 8th... basically the opposite of common sense).
So, who really knows?

And, btw, P5freak above entirely missed the point.


p5freak wrote:Inexorable does not reduce the attacks damage characteristic by 1, because precision blows never gets to the allocate attack step (where inexorable comes into play), which is after attack and wound rolls. Precision blows never goes beyond step 1, because when a 6 is rolled the attack sequence ends.


Attack sequence
1. Hit roll
2. Wound roll
3. Allocate attacks
4. Saving throw
5. Inflict Damage


Inexorable: Each Time an attack is allocated to this warlord, subtract 1 from that attacks damage characteristic (to a min of 1)


Precision blows: Each time an unmodified hit roll of 6 is made for a melee attack made by this warlord, the target unit suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the damage characteristic of the weapon used for that attack and the attack sequence ends.


I believe p5freak explains the breakdown well here, better than I did at least, for the original question. As for the second question, I believe that if the buff is one that applies to the weapons stats rather than the model, it should affect abilities that go off the weapon stats.

For instance, if you have a Damage 2 weapon and another model activates an ability that says something along the lines of "All weapons in the target unit gain +1 Damage", then when Precision Blows activates it would carry over the +1 Damage bonus for 3 Mortal Wounds as the weapons stats are changed by the ability.

However, if the ability is something like "All wounds dealt by the target unit deal +1 Damage", then Precision Blows would still only apply 2 Mortal Wounds as the +1 Damage is applied on a successful wound rather than the stats of the weapon used, which is where Precision Blows looks to determine the number of Mortal Wounds dealt.

Edit: After several attempts, I finally got the spoiler to work as intended.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/09 17:05:48


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

An excellent point.

For example, a weapon with the Master-Crafted Weapon Special Issue Wargear has it's Wound Characteristic increased by one. So a Power Sword with Master-Crafted Weapon Special Issue Wargear would do 2 Mortal Wounds (assuming identically worded rule applied to it).

Conversely, the Blood Angels Archangel's Sword has a Wound Characteristic of 2, which changes to 3 of allocated to a Chaos model, or 4 if allocated to a Chaos Monster model. However since the allocating the attach doesn't happen until after a damage roll, which hasn't been made, it would only inflict 2 Mortal Wounds regardless of the target (assuming identically worded rule applied to it).
   
Made in gb
Grovelin' Grot






P5freak, that makes 100% sense, ty for the damn well worded explanation
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

You are welcome. This rule interaction makes sense. It looks like GW actually put some thought into it. Or it could just be a lucky coincidence
   
 
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