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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Between their 1st/2nd Companies, Deathwing/Ravenwing, and Sons of the Lion, Dark Angels got a pretty fundamental set of rules that change how they relate to things like Combat Doctrines. Not every Chapter needs to be so fundamentally different - indeed, most shouldn't be - but I wanted to run a few ideas up the flagpole for how the notoriously different Space Wolves might modify the basic Adeptus Astartes package. These aren't intended to go on all units, or even to be used all together; they're just potential "modifiers".

Proven Grit
The Sons of Russ are hunters to a man, and drill extensively for extreme close-quarters firefights where they can put their armoured bulk and inhuman reflexes to good use.
When a model in this unit shoots a bolt weapon (excluding a Heavy weapon), it can make 1 additional attack if the target is within half the weapon's range and any of the following apply:
  • The shooting model is INFANTRY and its unit Remained Stationary in your previous Movement phase.
  • The shooting model is a TERMINATOR or BIKER.

  • This ability replaces the Bolter Discipline ability for all rules purposes (e.g. Angels of Death).
    A reference to the old "True Grit" ability that allowed Space Wolves to use boltguns as bolt pistols, due to their enhanced senses, reflexes, and extensive training with the pistol grip. This ability would go on Grey Hunters and their equivalents (e.g. Intercessors) and is intended to reward Space Wolves for being aggressive; you lose Rapid Fire at long range, but in exchange your Assault, Rapid Fire, and Pistol weapons all get an extra shot if they stood still (or are a Biker/Terminator) within half range. Instead of a bolt rifle shooting 1 shot at 30" (moving) or 2 shots at 30" (stationary) and 2 shots within 15" (moving or stationary), the bolt rifle shoots 1 shot at 15" (moving or stationary), 2 shots within 15" (moving), and 3 shots within 15" (stationary).

    This also affects Assault Weapons, to avoid overshadowing them in their intended role (Assault bolt weapons are weaker shot-for-shot, so they're getting less out of it), as well as Pistols, for the characteristic extra shot in "round 2" of combat. I'm considering whether the "Remain Stationary" clause should also cover disembarking from a TRANSPORT and not subsequently moving, but it's not as though Space Wolves are renowned for mechanised combat. It'd certainly make the Impulsor happy, though.

    Battle Hunger
    Drunk on the transhuman power coursing through their systems, the younger warriors of the Space Wolves display a reckless fury in battle.
  • When this unit declares a charge, if it selects the closest eligible enemy unit as one of the targets of that charge, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit until the end of the turn.
  • Each time this unit fights, if it made a charge move or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, then until that fight is resolved, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit.

  • This ability replaces the Shock Assault ability for all rules purposes (e.g. Angels of Death, Wolfkin).
    A unified replacement for the Blood Claws' Headstrong ability (must charge the closest enemy unless you have a Wolf Guard... but you'll always have a Wolf Guard) and Berserk Charge ability (an extra +1A on the charge). This would go on Blood Claws and their equivalents (e.g. Assault Intercessors). Shock Assault gives you +1A in the "first turn of combat", whether you charge, perform a Heroic Intervention, or get charged. Battle Hunger only works when charging or performing a Heroic Intervention, punishing you for getting caught out, but it gives +2A instead of +1A when you charge the closest enemy. This encourages you to act like the reckless Blood Claws (and allows the enemy to bait you in the same way) without mandating your behaviour or being totally defanged by a Wolf Guard clause.

    Hardened Will
    In the ranks of the Vlka Fenryka, experience is a license for independence. Each Great Company expects its veterans to trust their own judgement over any broader strategic assessment.
    Instead of following the normal rules for its Combat Doctrines ability:
  • At the start of each battle round, if this unit is more than 15” away from the closest enemy unit, this unit treats the Devastator Doctrine as being active for your army in that battle round, instead of the active combat doctrine.
  • At the start of each battle round, if this unit is within 3” of the closest enemy unit, this unit treats the Assault Doctrine as being active for your army in that battle round, instead of the active combat doctrine.
  • Otherwise, this unit treats the Tactical Doctrine as being active for your army, instead of the active combat doctrine.
  • This is easily the weirdest one, and has no real precedent except for the fact that Long Fangs used to be able to "split fire", which most units couldn't, to represent their long experience and independent nature. The intent here is to replicate that feeling, by having Long Fangs (and their equivalents) act "out of sync" with the rest of the army, ignoring the active Combat Doctrine to do their own thing based on their own circumstances. They don't need to listen to you - they have their own things to deal with! If there's no-one within 15" at the start of the battle round, they're always in Devastator. Between 15" and 3", they're always in Tactical. Within 3", they're always in Assault. It might be too powerful to allow repeated Devastator and "early" Assault, but this would be a limited ability, and it's not as though Space Wolves have much Heavy support to make the Devastator Doctrine a bigger threat. Plus the "downside" of being forced into a different Doctrine is there, even if it's not hugely relevant outside of the Devastator/Tactical split. At most, infiltrators mean you'll lose that first Devastator round.

    Might be worth making this "your Command phase" and rather than "battle round", to avoid the split between going first (in which case the enemy has more control over what Doctrine they start the next round in) or going second (in which case you do). Alternatively, it could be targeting-based; if you're targeting a unit more than XX" away, you're Devastator, etc. That feels like less of a downside, though; it's much more flexible. It could be half-range, I guess? More than half range is Devastator, within half range is Tactical, Engagement Range is Assault?

    Honour and Victory
    Outnumbered and overwhelmed, the Space Wolves strike back at a galaxy that would see them broken.
    Each time a Combat Attrition test is failed for this unit, if the result was not an unmodified 1, before the model that flees is removed from play it can either immediately shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or immediately fight as if it were the Fight phase.

    This ability replaces the And They Shall Know No Fear ability for all rules purposes (e.g. Angels of Death).
    Instead of ignoring Combat Attrition modifiers (most notably, being under half strength), the Space Wolves get a "benefit" from them; if a model flees due to a CA modifier that wouldn't have normally fled, it can shoot or attack before being removed. Encourages frenzied last charges, large units that are more likely to be knocked under half strength, and so on. Nothing nearly as meaningful as the changes above, since it's passive rather than active; this is basically just an afterthought after I decided I might as well round out the whole Angels of Death "set".

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 14:04:45


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Interesting. Lots to like here. A few scattered thoughts:

    * Most of the benefits feel reasonably well-balanced against the benefits you'd be giving up.

    * I question whether or not SW really have enough units in the "new guy" and "old guy" subcategories to warrant a DW/RW style of treatment. We're basically talking blood claws, skyclaws, long fangs, and maybe wolf guard, right?

    * Slightly off-topic, but I feel like it might be better to do away with doctrines as a discrete thing and instead expand chapter tactics. So instead of saying...

    "Okay, all marines that don't hang out with non-marines get doctrines and these angel of death rules, but they get better doctrines if they only hang out with a single chapter, and also some chapters have sub-factions that change how those doctrines and other rules work even more..."

    We could just say....

    "Doctrines don't exist. Angels of Death doesn't exist. Part of your Ultramarines chapter tactic is that you get better AP on certain weapons each turn. Part of your Space Wolves chapter tactic is that you might murder a dude when you "run away" because you're actually busy running off to have a skirmish against some dude off-screen. Part of your Dark Angels chapter tactic is that your terminators never get wounded on a 2."

    Etc. Basically, just spend a little more paper and ink spelling out appropriate benefits for each subfaction rather than feeling compelled to fit everything into a two sentence chapter tactic and a bunch of unlockables that modify other unlockables that are separate from other unlockables.

    I'm rambling a bit. Basically, I feel like doing away with some of the assumed special rules marines have would give us room to give them more meaningful, fluffy mechanics. Let Iron Warriors take terminator sergeants in their tactical squads. Maybe let RG utilize some sort of blip deployment or snipe things with their bolters if they don't move (callback to the old Raptors rules). Give the same freedom to other armies rule design.

    I feel like faction/subfaction bonuses have become somewhat unwieldy (army-wide rules +semi-random or changes-by-the-turn monofaction rules + chapter tactic equivalents), all without necessarily adding a lot of fluff to the game.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    Wyldhunt wrote:
    * I question whether or not SW really have enough units in the "new guy" and "old guy" subcategories to warrant a DW/RW style of treatment. We're basically talking blood claws, skyclaws, long fangs, and maybe wolf guard, right?
    Yeah. To give a little background on this... when it comes to the big, established, and weird Chapters, I feel like Primaris Marines are in an awkward place, metatextually. Salamanders? Fine, whatever, you'll use Eradicators and flamer Aggressors, shame there aren't any flamer Intercessors. White Scars? Sure, whatever, Outriders and Invader ATVs, thanks for the Assault bolters. But for the ones who stood out more significantly, like Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves, there are two warring principles here:
  • 1) There's no way my Dark Angels/Space Wolves would accept a bunch of new guys/convert a bunch of old guys on Guilliman's say-so, just like that! There should be a serious divide between Firstborn and Primaris, and the mechanics should reflect that.
  • 2) Primaris look very cool and are the only new models we're ever going to get, please just let me use them.

  • I hew pretty heavily to the second view, and I'm happy to accept whatever justification needs to be given for that. Maybe the Rubicon Primaris becomes much easier to use, maybe it's been 100 years since the Torchbearers so the Primaris are just integrated now, maybe some of the Primaris went on a magic quest and brought back 10 boar tails to be allowed to use the special keywords. Fundamentally, I would rather that Dark Angels Aggressors and even Invictor Tactical Warsuits were DEATHWING - because the big visual of Deathwing is the bulky, bone-white Terminators stomping forward with powerful weapons, and that's what those dudes are. I'd rather that Primaris Chaplains were just Primaris Interrogator Chaplains (because they're Chaplains, come on), and so on. In the lore, Aggressors are effectively "just" a new form of frontline Devastator, but there's no reason Dark Angels can't be using Aggressor suits differently, as a reward and protection for an expanding Inner Circle in the Era Indomitus.

    You can justify maintaining the key visuals and dynamics; but as it stands, a lot of Primaris stuff still feels like it exists in a bit of vacuum to the weirder Chapters. Deathwatch does it well through Kill Teams, and Blood Angels handle it the best through the Death Company upgrade system, but you're still left with a situation where the Apothecaries of the Blood Angels are Sanguinary Priests, versed in the mysteries of the Primarch's ichor... except for Primaris Apothecaries, who are still just doctors I guess.

    The fact that Judiciars - Chaplains in training who physically discipline Space Marines - have no special interaction with Dark Angels or Black Templars or Space Wolves or Blood Angels lore/mechanics is kind of bonkers. If they'd existed from the ground-up, I can guarantee you that Judiciars would be sub-interrogators in the Dark Angels, who survey the Chapter for those who might Know Too Much, while Blood Angels and Space Wolves would use them to keep Death Company or Wulfen in line, and Black Templars would probably have them as a miniature Emperor's Champions or give them a weaker Chaplain litany or something.

    All of which is a long-winded way to say that I'd probably be stripping out Intercessors, Heavy Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, etc, etc, and reorganising them into properly weird Space Wolves formations, reminiscent of their Firstborn equivalents. I've moved away from mix-matching armour types (makes Toughness too complicated, screw it), so my current thoughts are:
  • "Grey Hunters" = Greyshield Squads (Intercessors + Assault Intercessors with Proven Grit and no Combat Squads, plus access to a Hellblaster special gunner and a Wolf Guard "Sergeant")
  • "Blood Claws" = Bloodhowl Squads (Assault Intercessors and/or Reivers (?) with Battle Hunger and no Combat Squads, plus access to a Wolf Guard "Sergeant")
  • "Long Fangs" = Rimefang Squads (Heavy Intercessors + Eradicators with Hardened Will and no Combat Squads, plus access to a Wolf Guard "Sergeant")
  • "Swiftclaws" = Thunderclaw Squads (Outriders with Proven Grit and Battle Hunger, plus up to 12 models in the squad, and maybe an ATV Wolf Guard "Sergeant"?)
  • "Skyclaws" = Cloudbreaker Squads (Inceptors and/or Reivers with Grav-Chutes (?) with Proven Grit and Battle Hunger and no Combat Squads; only break in the "no mix-matching armour" rule, and probably not worth it)
  • "Wolf Scouts" = Wyrmhunt Squads (Infiltrators + Incursors + Eliminators + Reivers (?) with Proven Grit and Hardened Will (?) and no Combat Squads)
  • "Wulfen" = Beastmark Squads (Veteran Intercessors with Battle Hunger and Swift Hunters and an extra special rule that means they can only Advance in the Movement phase)

  • With the "Wolf Guard Sergeant" being available as an Aggressor, Bladeguard, etc. Some of this could be handled with an upgrade system for existing units. Some of it would need to be new datasheets.

    Wyldhunt wrote:

    * Slightly off-topic, but I feel like it might be better to do away with doctrines as a discrete thing and instead expand chapter tactics. So instead of saying...

    "Okay, all marines that don't hang out with non-marines get doctrines and these angel of death rules, but they get better doctrines if they only hang out with a single chapter, and also some chapters have sub-factions that change how those doctrines and other rules work even more..."

    I feel like faction/subfaction bonuses have become somewhat unwieldy (army-wide rules +semi-random or changes-by-the-turn monofaction rules + chapter tactic equivalents), all without necessarily adding a lot of fluff to the game.
    A lot of army-building in 8e-9e has felt like two steps forward, one step back. The Detachments + CP system was a great way to encourage certain builds (e.g. lots of Troops), without preventing less typical armies (e.g. Armoured Companies) from being fielded, while levying a slight tax on the latter. Unfortunately, the exact numbers used resulted in perverse incentives, like Militarum CP batteries. The Detachments + Factions system was a great way to allow Factions that should be fighting together (e.g. Knights and AdMech, GSC and Tyranids, Aeldari and Harlequins, CSM and Daemons) to fight alongside each other, without allowing nonsensical team-ups (e.g. CSM and Sororitas). Unfortunately, it was too permissive, encouraging min-max mixing more than it did unified armies.

    The shift to 9e recognised these problems, and responded in two ways:
  • 1) changes to CP generation meant that the way you built your army could only give you LESS CP, not MORE - instantly eliminating "CP Batteries"
  • 2) every Faction is getting a "if every unit in your army is a [FACTION] unit, get a bonus" rule, to encourage more single-codex armies

  • I feel like both are good, elegant solutions, but both AT ONCE might be overkill, and:
  • 1) It's another level of army-building/list-designing complexity, on top of Detachment rules.
  • 2) It discourages existing, entirely intended Faction mixing; I don't see why Harlequins or Corsairs joining a Drukhari raid stops them from drawing Power from Pain, and I don't really see why Death Guard leading Nurgle Daemons/Gellerpox/Renegades would be less effective at spreading the Contagions of Nurgle.
  • 3) In reference to 2), we've already got "UNALIGNED" and "Agents of the Imperium" as exceptions to these abilities. Adeptus Mechanicus might add another for Imperial Knights. I guarantee Genestealers will introduce at least one more for Brood Brothers, and probably another for Tyranids. I'd be surprised if Harlequins didn't have some kind of rule for slipping into other Aeldari factions without disrupting their abilities, when they get updated. And so on. If you need this many exceptions, maybe it shouldn't work that way in the first place?
  • 4) It encourages a shift away from inter-Faction mixing and toward intra-Faction mixing, with Detachments taken from different, specialised Subfactions performing different, specialised roles. In some armies, like Astra Militarum or Drukhari, that makes sense. In others, it's a bit less expected; why are two totally different Genestealer Cults working together? In others, it's just bizarre; two completely different Hive Fleets? Two completely different Chapters?
  • 5) In reference to 4), that's why Space Marines also introduces an army-wide sub-faction ability, to go with its army-wide faction ability and detachment-wide sub-faction ability; to discourage that kind of intra-Faction min-maxing. It's an extra layer of rules, created as a solution for a problem that didn't need to exist.
  • 6) With the "meta" reason to mix Factions for CP gone, the only mechanical incentive to mix Factions is to get a wider range of options for your army. Buffs to single-Faction armies are meant to offset this with raw power; you can get some extra flexibility, but you miss out on Combat Doctrines/Power From Pain/Sacred Rites... but not all Factions are created equal. An army with only DRUKHARI must be built from 30 units. An army with only ADEPTUS MECHANICUS must be built from 31 units. An ASTRA MILITARUM army has more choices than that just for VEHICLES. An ULTRAMARINES army has more choices than that for the Elite slot alone. Different Factions miss out on less.

  • And yes, it's mostly a separate topic, but I agree that the game would benefit a lot from being less tied to the literal names of boxes that GW currently sells (and the specific stuff inside them); there's no reason that "Space Marine Captain/Lieutenant" has to be spread across 11 different datasheets, for example.

    Hell, it'd be a wild departure from how the game's even historically presented itself, but there's no reason datasheets need to be the way they currently are. Deathwatch Kill Teams made that pretty clear. You could have a statline for "Marine Scout", "Tactical Marine", "Terminator Marine", "Primaris Marine", and "Gravis Marine", and... then you're pretty much done. Every INFANTRY unit in that Faction is some combination of those stats, plus a unit size, plus wargear options, plus special rules, plus a Sergeant (i.e. "add +1A/Ld to a Veteran"). The Intercessor datasheet could just be:
    Intercessor Squad
    Battlefield Role: Troops
    Composition: 5/10 Primaris Marines; Power: 5/10; Points: 20/model
    Weapons: 1 bolt pistol; 1 bolt rifle; Wargear: frag grenades; krak grenades
    Specialists: 1 model must be a Veteran; for every 5 models, 1 model can be a Gunner
    Optional:
  • All models can replace 1 bolt rifle with 1 auto rifle or 1 stalker rifle.
  • A Veteran can replace its weapons with 2 items (1 must be a PISTOL) from the Primaris Veteran Weapons list.
  • A Gunner can be equipped with 1 auxiliary launcher.
  • Abilities: Combat Squads
    Keywords: CORE, INTERCESSORS, INTERCESSOR SQUAD, SERGEANT (Veteran only)

    Hellblaster Squad
    Battlefield Role: Heavy Support
    Composition: 5/10 Primaris Marines; Power: 8/16; Points: 33/model
    Weapons: 1 bolt pistol; 1 plasma incinerator; Wargear: frag grenades; krak grenades
    Specialists: 1 model must be a Veteran
    Optional:
  • All models can replace 1 plasma incinerator with 1 assault incinerator or 1 heavy incinerator.
  • A Veteran can replace its weapons with 2 items (1 must be a PISTOL) from the Primaris Veteran Weapons list.
  • Abilities: Combat Squads
    Keywords: CORE, HELLBLASTER SQUAD, SERGEANT (Veteran only)

    Incursor Squad
    Battlefield Role: Troops
    Composition: 5/10 Primaris Marines; Power: 5/10; Points: 21/model
    Weapons: 1 bolt pistol; 1 occulus bolt carbine; 1 paired combat blades; Wargear: frag grenades; krak grenades; multi-spectrum array
    Specialists: 1 model must be a Veteran; 1 model can be a Gunner
    Optional:
  • A Gunner can be equipped with 1 haywire mine.
  • Abilities: Combat Squads; Concealed Positions
    Keywords: CORE, PHOBOS, SMOKESCREEN, INCURSOR SQUAD, SERGEANT (Veteran only)

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/13 14:54:47


     
       
    Made in us
    Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




    I'm gonna lean hard no. Getting real good broken Wulfen day vibes here, where basically Wulfen backed up by priests were able to wreck entire lists and it was extremely difficult to take them down.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
    I'm gonna lean hard no. Getting real good broken Wulfen day vibes here, where basically Wulfen backed up by priests were able to wreck entire lists and it was extremely difficult to take them down.
    ...how so? I don't think I've actually put any rules that would pertain to Wulfen here. The closest is that note in my other post where I mention making pseudo-Wulfen by letting you give Veteran Intercessors the Battle Hunger ability, but that's a sidegrade which barely scrapes the surface of what actual Wulfen get.
       
    Made in us
    Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




    Lets see, how many attacks with a Thunder hammer and what not would that grant Assault intercessors, or Assault marines, for the cost? I'll be honest, SWs are not hurting right now, in ANY shape or fashion. They don't need complete re-build buffs.
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
    Lets see, how many attacks with a Thunder hammer and what not would that grant Assault intercessors, or Assault marines, for the cost? I'll be honest, SWs are not hurting right now, in ANY shape or fashion. They don't need complete re-build buffs.

    If I'm not mistaken, the intercessor sergeant with a hammer would be looking at either 5 attacks on the charge or 3 attacks if he didn't charge that turn. +1 if you spend CP on veteran intercessors. Compared to now where he gets 4 attacks on the charge, 4 attacks if he got charged, and 3 attacks if he neither charged nor got charged. Still +1 if you spend CP to make them veterans.

    So it encourages you to do the charging and punishes you for getting charged. This is probably a net buff for blood claws and assault intercessors as they want to be charging and many enemies don't want to charge them. My howling banshees, for instance, can blunt their offense a little but don't love the idea of getting stuck in with such units even if they don't benefit from the usual +1 from shock assault. Then again, this is probably a net nerf for armies that were going to charge such units anyway (either because they're tarpitty enough to survive intercessors without the extra attacks or because they're designed to charge even when the odds don't favor them). If you happen to be fielding a bunch of bloodletters or hormagaunts, these changes are probably more on the nerf side for your SW opponent as your opponent is basically at -1 Attacks any time you're the one doing the charging.

    To clarify, I believe RevildRas's intent here is to make these alternative loadouts sidegrades; not buffs. Do you feel that's not the case with these suggestions?

       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
    Lets see, how many attacks with a Thunder hammer and what not would that grant Assault intercessors, or Assault marines, for the cost? I'll be honest, SWs are not hurting right now, in ANY shape or fashion. They don't need complete re-build buffs.
    A squad of 10 Assault Intercessors with a Thunder Hammer Sergeant gets:
  • Marines Charged (Battle Hunger on closest enemy): 50 chainsword attacks; 5 thunder hammer attacks
  • Marines Charged (Shock Assault, Battle Hunger): 40 chainsword attacks; 4 thunder hammer attacks
  • Marines Heroically Intervened (Shock Assault, Battle Hunger): 40 chainsword attacks; 4 thunder hammer attacks
  • Marines Were Charged (Shock Assault): 40 chainsword attacks; 4 thunder hammer attacks
  • Marines Were Charged (Battle Hunger): 30 chainsword attacks; 3 thunder hammer attacks
  • Second Turn Of Combat (Shock Assault, Battle Hunger): 30 chainsword attacks; 3 thunder hammer attacks

  • So the intention is for it to be a sidegrade; your Assault Intercessors/Assault Marines are more vulnerable when they're charged, but more dangerous when you get the charge off against the closest enemy (this also means they can be baited away from a juicier target). It's actually a downgrade for Blood Claws and Skyclaws, who previously had Shock Assault plus +1A on the charge regardless of who they charged; this removes their +1A when charged, and adds an additional restriction to who they have to charge to get to +2A. The existing Berzerk Charge + Headstrong units would need a slight points dip to account for that.

    Any thoughts on Proven Grit, out of curiosity? I think that's definitely a down/sidegrade, but I'd value your perspective. I'm also tempted to add GRAVIS to the list of keywords who can get it without moving; Inceptors and Aggressors would be fine for getting an extra shot on their bolt weapons at half range, I think, given how much better the alternatives already are, but I'm troubled by whether Heavy Intercessors with heavy bolt rifles would be too good if they had 3 shots within 18", or not good enough if they had 1 shot beyond 18" and had to stay still for the third shot within 18".

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 12:49:07


     
       
     
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