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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




New player here, I was hoping I could get some help with a weird rules interaction. I've been digging all morning and can't find a clear answer.

ive been trying to figure out how the Archaeopter Transvectors new Combined landing ability would work against the Auspex Scan stratagem. I know that when the planes come in from outside the game are counted as reinforcements and could be targetable. But, what about the units that disembark from the plane? Do they also count as reinforcements because they came in during the reinforcement step, or do they not since the plane comes in first and they disembark from it?
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

If you are disembarking, what is the difference between units in a rhino disembarking and units in anything else disembarking?

Same situation as a drop pod, you can not shoot the disembarking passengers.

I believe There is an FAQ about this as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/06 15:28:54


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Its unclear whether a unit disembarking from a transport that comes in as reinforcements, is reinforcements itself, or if they are a unit simply disembarking. Auspex scan can only be used on units that were set up as reinforcements.

AUSPEX SCAN

Use this Stratagem at the end of the Reinforcements step of your opponent's Movement phase. Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY unit from your army that is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units. That unit can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, but its models can only target a single eligible enemy unit that was set up as Reinforcements this turn and that is within 12" of their unit when doing so.


What deathreaper is talking about is no longer valid in 9th. It was in the 8th edition FAQ.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Its unclear whether a unit disembarking from a transport that comes in as reinforcements, is reinforcements itself, or if they are a unit simply disembarking. Auspex scan can only be used on units that were set up as reinforcements.

AUSPEX SCAN

Use this Stratagem at the end of the Reinforcements step of your opponent's Movement phase. Select one ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY unit from your army that is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units. That unit can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, but its models can only target a single eligible enemy unit that was set up as Reinforcements this turn and that is within 12" of their unit when doing so.


What deathreaper is talking about is no longer valid in 9th. It was in the 8th edition FAQ.
Given the FAQ from 8th, I would say that it is safe to still play that way, since the unit started embarked on the transport and are disembarking from a transport. They were not ever put into reserves.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





I was wondering about this after the Dreadclaw FAQ as well. As far as I can tell, the embarked unit is not "set up as Reinforcements", but the rules aren't entirely clear.

The ruling from 8th is a fair way to play it IMHO, but you can't reasonably expect it to win arguments.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Cheex wrote:
I was wondering about this after the Dreadclaw FAQ as well. As far as I can tell, the embarked unit is not "set up as Reinforcements", but the rules aren't entirely clear.

The ruling from 8th is a fair way to play it IMHO, but you can't reasonably expect it to win arguments.

With GW's lack of direction about this scenario, and the rules not changing, we know what GW had intended for the rule. No reason to do anything different until GW says otherwise.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 Cheex wrote:
I was wondering about this after the Dreadclaw FAQ as well. As far as I can tell, the embarked unit is not "set up as Reinforcements", but the rules aren't entirely clear.

The ruling from 8th is a fair way to play it IMHO, but you can't reasonably expect it to win arguments.

With GW's lack of direction about this scenario, and the rules not changing, we know what GW had intended for the rule. No reason to do anything different until GW says otherwise.


We know what GW had intended for drop pods. The removal of that FAQ entry could be seen as a rules change.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 Cheex wrote:
I was wondering about this after the Dreadclaw FAQ as well. As far as I can tell, the embarked unit is not "set up as Reinforcements", but the rules aren't entirely clear.

The ruling from 8th is a fair way to play it IMHO, but you can't reasonably expect it to win arguments.

With GW's lack of direction about this scenario, and the rules not changing, we know what GW had intended for the rule. No reason to do anything different until GW says otherwise.


We know what GW had intended for drop pods. The removal of that FAQ entry could be seen as a rules change.
Not at all, It should be seen as an old rule for 8th (and their intent as demonstrated by the FAQ being there in the first place), not a rules change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/07 16:25:22


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

The logic is the same it has not changed the previous faq was a clarification not a rules change this is an instance where we know the intent

Subsequent removal of the clarification doesn't change the rule

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/07 23:24:21


 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

The removal of the clarification makes it unclear. And again, it only applied to drop pods.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






All units that use a rule to not start on the battlefield are considered reinforcements.

Some units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in a location other than on the battlefield; units that use such rules are called Reinforcements, and they will arrive later in the battle as described by their rule.


Thus any unit that arrived on the board from outside the battlefield is a valid target for auspex scan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 09:41:57


Earth is not flat
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
All units that use a rule to not start on the battlefield are considered reinforcements.

Some units have a rule that allows them to start the battle in a location other than on the battlefield; units that use such rules are called Reinforcements, and they will arrive later in the battle as described by their rule.


Thus any unit that arrived on the board from outside the battlefield is a valid target for auspex scan.


This interpretation appears to include units set up in transports where the transport is set up on the battlefield. I’m not sure that is right.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






First, being embarked within a transport is not a location other than the battlefield.

During deployment, if every model in this unit has this ability, then you can set up this unit in a teleportarium chamber instead of setting it up on the battlefield.


Both players now secretly note down on their army roster which of the units in their army will start the battle in Strategic Reserves, which of their units will start the battle in a location other than the battlefield (if a player has access to any Stratagems that enable them to set up units from their army in a location other than the battlefield, they must use such Stratagems now), and which of their units will start the battle embarked within TRANSPORT models (they must declare what units are embarked on what model). When both players have done so, they declare their selections to their opponent.


Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, other units’ abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all rules purposes, units that are embarked within a TRANSPORT model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of move that turn.


Second, if you assume that models embarked within transports are not on the battlefield, quite a number of rules fail or break the game, which makes that interpretation invalid by default.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 10:08:47


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
First, being embarked within a transport is not a location other than the battlefield.

During deployment, if every model in this unit has this ability, then you can set up this unit in a teleportarium chamber instead of setting it up on the battlefield.


Both players now secretly note down on their army roster which of the units in their army will start the battle in Strategic Reserves, which of their units will start the battle in a location other than the battlefield (if a player has access to any Stratagems that enable them to set up units from their army in a location other than the battlefield, they must use such Stratagems now), and which of their units will start the battle embarked within TRANSPORT models (they must declare what units are embarked on what model). When both players have done so, they declare their selections to their opponent.


Units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, other units’ abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked, and Stratagems cannot be used to affect units while they are embarked. For all rules purposes, units that are embarked within a TRANSPORT model that has made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fallen Back or Remained Stationary also count as having made the same kind of move that turn.


Second, if you assume that models embarked within transports are not on the battlefield, quite a number of rules fail or break the game, which makes that interpretation invalid by default.


The core rules tell us to remove a unit from the battlefield when it embarks. The unit is not on the battlefield, so it must be in a location other than the battlefield:

EMBARK
If a unit makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, and every model in that unit ends that move within 3" of a friendly TRANSPORT model they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark within a TRANSPORT model that is within Engagement Range of enemy models, and it cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a TRANSPORT model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within the model.

Emphasis mine

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 11:18:31


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






If you take the whole sentence without cutting off half, it tells you that they unit is embarked within a model on the battlefield.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
If you take the whole sentence without cutting off half, it tells you that they unit is embarked within a model on the battlefield.


Exactly. It is now in the transport, which is a location other than the battlefield. Whether the transport itself is on the battlefield or not isn’t relevant.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






While looking for a rule to quote, I actually came across the actual solution to this discussion:
Page 94 GT2020/page 366 BRB wrote:Reinforcement unit: Any unit that starts the battle in a location other than on the battlefield, and is not embarked on a TRANSPORT unit that does start the battle on the battlefield, is considered to be a Reinforcement unit.


So, units share their "reinforcement" status with their transport.

GW actually managed to write a proper rule, and then hid it away in the glossary

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/08 14:35:28


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
While looking for a rule to quote, I actually came across the actual solution to this discussion:
Page 94 GT2020/page 366 BRB wrote:Reinforcement unit: Any unit that starts the battle in a location other than on the battlefield, and is not embarked on a TRANSPORT unit that does start the battle on the battlefield, is considered to be a Reinforcement unit.


So, units share their "reinforcement" status with their transport.

GW actually managed to write a proper rule, and then hid it away in the glossary


That’s great!! Thanks for sharing.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





That would explain why they removed the 8th faq ruling, because they intend and RAW allow for auspex like abilities to target units coming from drop pods transports etc. Nice spot.
   
 
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