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Question about AETAOS’RAU’KERES the great daemon and a rule he has  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

hey guys.

I play orks but considering trying to make a chaos daemon army, so there are a few things im uncertain about and may fail to understand.

So theres a daemon costing 700 points with the name AETAOS’RAU’KERES.

Hes a Tzeentch daemon so he has an ability called "Ephemeral Form, that all Tzeentch daemons has.

Ephemeral Form: Add 1 to any invulnerable saving throws made for this unit.

Yet right under the ability, Ephemeral Form" he has another ability that goes like this:

Daemon Lord: The model has a 4+ invulnerable save. Invulnerable saving throws made for this model can never be modified.

As i see it, on one hand, he has an invul save of +4 that says he can never modify this. But on the other hand, he gets +1 to his invul save throw, which, if i understand it correctly, he cant do since it cant be modified. What the hell? Why would i have 2 different abilities that cancels themselves out? Why not just remove Ephemeral Form then from his ability list, if i dont have a chance to use it at all?

Hopefully im just reading it wrong.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 21:33:07


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Nope.

The roll and the save value are different.

You're rolling d6+1 and comparing it against the save char of 4+
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope.

The roll and the save value are different.

You're rolling d6+1 and comparing it against the save char of 4+


but.. adding +1 isnt that a modifier or what?

So that daemon guy does actually still have an invul save of +3?

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




No, you're not modifying his char.

That would be changing the char - the bit you compare your dice roll against - to a 5+, 3+ etc.

This is modifying the dice roll.
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





The Daemon Lord rule specifically says you can't modify the invulnerable saving throw, so Ephemeral Form essentially has no effect here.

Yes, it is a bit of a "what the hell" moment; the IA Compendium is full of them. My best guess is that GW added the rule just to be consistent with other Tzeentch Greater Daemons.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Ah my mistake. Sorry.
Indeed. You can modify his save, but you cannot modify the throw.
So if you find a way to give him +1 to his save, that works.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





The reason for this kind of jank is basically that he's a Forgeworld model, and their rules were all rushed out and not very well thought through. There are many examples of eyebrow raising interactions, and some models that have rules that straight up don't work in the game without some very creative interpretation.

In fairness, a 3+ invuln is not something I think should exist in the game generally, and certainly not on giant centrepiece models.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

The entire IA book is junk, full of unnecessary nerfs and interactions.

That being said, I agree that the throw can't be modified. While the save can, I don't expect the rules allowing a boost to 3++ will exist in the new book.

   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 Stux wrote:
The reason for this kind of jank is basically that he's a Forgeworld model, and their rules were all rushed out and not very well thought through. There are many examples of eyebrow raising interactions, and some models that have rules that straight up don't work in the game without some very creative interpretation.

In fairness, a 3+ invuln is not something I think should exist in the game generally, and certainly not on giant centrepiece models.


i agree, but tzeentch daemons "thing" just was a better invul save over the other daemons, so when this dude has an invul save of 4, and all the other daemons have as well, im unsure why i would go for this model to begin with. also he is 700 points.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






There is no secret, hyper-obscure thing hidden away in the forge world rules or codexes that you will find that will allow you to win games.

Im not saying this specifically in relation to this post - im just noticing a theme in your posts.

Most hyper obscure units and such have rules that work out to "bad". And theyre the most likely units in the game to get squatted, deleted, and rendered nonfunctional by changes to core rules.

The life of a Obscure Rules Archaeologist contains only pain, Beardeddragon.

Turn back.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

true lol.

And i went to the daemon tactics thread in the tactica part, but .. that thread seemed pretty dead. Maybe starting a chaos daemons army isnt really the best to do right now.

A note though, i never intended to buy that model right now or anything, i just wanted to see if i had understood it correctly that he wouldnt get an invul save throw of +3. which he wouldnt.

thanks guys

oh and yea i do look sometimes at obscure rules and ask about on the forums, because those are the rules i dont understand. and i want to know rather than just plowing through not knowing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 15:10:04


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Let me tell you a cautionary tale of a man named Ted.

Ted was a young enthusiastic gamer who joined my group midway through 7th, playing imperial guard.

Ted was clever and wanted his army to always be unique. He started off by deciding to build a Drop Troops, flyer based guard army, and he spent hundreds of dollars buying valkyries and converting them into forgeworld Vendettas and Vultures.

When Guard finally got formations, those units that werent in the core rules of the IG, so they werent in any of the formations. So he tried to sell them on ebay, but they were conversions, with a not great paint job. He lost a lot of money.

But, he was clever, and he noticed a formation that revolved around Wyrdvane Psyker squads that allowed his guard to daemon summon very efficiently. He based his new 2k army around this concept, buying and converting daemon units to look like corrupted guardsmen, and converting tons of guardsmen into wyrdvane psykers by scratch building them staffs.

It was a very unique army concept. Nobody else had anything quite like it.

Then 8th edition dropped, and summoning was now only for Chaos armies and was completely reworked. His wholly converted army was totally, completely worthless. And hed never actually been interested in playing daemons, his joy came from playing something unique, and feeling like hed found a secret, powerful thing in the rules.

He quit over 2000$ in the hole.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

lol that sucks xD

But i dont have a very unique Ork army (i play orks mainly, which you probably knew). I have only few conversions for like tankbustas and kommandos and a weirdboy

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 15:37:13


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
 
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