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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Aetheric Attendants
Once honoured as tutelary spirits of Prospero's great library-cults, the daemonic progeny of the Changer of Ways now babble and writhe amongst the very sorcerers who studied them, called to serve a Thousand Sons warhost as a fire serves a smith.
This unit has the following abilities, which are described below: Bound Servant; Conjured from Beyond; Daemonic; Unstable.
Spoiler:
Bound Servant
Though every conjured changespawn strains against its bindings with mad cunning and eldritch insight, the sons of Magnus bow to none but their Primarch – and some, not even to him.
  • This unit can never be your WARLORD, and cannot be given a Relic or Warlord Trait.
  • The inclusion of a unit with this ability does not prevent other units in the same Detachment from benefiting from the Brotherhood of Sorcerers ability, and it does not prevent your army from becoming a Cabal of Sorcerers.
  • If this unit is included as part of a Crusade force, it can never gain experience points, it can never have any Battle Honours, and any Out of Action tests taken for it are automatically passed.
  • You cannot include more HORROR units than you do RUBRIC MARINES and SCARAB OCCULT TERMINATORS units in each THOUSAND SONS Detachment in your army.

  • Conjured from Beyond
    The sorcerers of the Thousand Sons slash open the fabric of reality with ancient rites and psychic thought-forms, opening coruscating tears through which their aetheric allies spill forth in a hellish tide. Sustained by their summoners' mental energies, the unreal legions of the Immaterium can withstand the crushing pressures of realspace for long enough to wreak havoc on the enemies of Tzeentch.
    During deployment, you must set up this unit in the Immaterium instead of on the battlefield, but it is not counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army. While any units in your army are set up in the Immaterium, THOUSAND SONS PSYKER units in your army can attempt the following psychic action:

  • Conjuring Ritual (Psychic Action - Warp Charge 4): Any number of THOUSAND SONS PSYKER units from your army that did not arrive as Reinforcements this turn can attempt to perform this psychic action in your Psychic phase. If the action is a success, select one friendly TZEENTCH CONJURED DAEMON unit that is set up in the Immaterium and has a Power Rating equal to or less than the result of the Psychic test. Set up that DAEMON unit as Reinforcements, anywhere on the battlefield that is visible to the unit performing the action and more than 9” away from any enemy models. That DAEMON unit can be set up in any battle round, regardless of the mission rules.’

  • Daemonic
    Mortal weapons have little purchase on the unnatural biology of daemonic entities.
    Models in this unit have a 5+ invulnerable save.

    Unstable
    The warp's denizens have a fickle relationship with reality – the spawn of Tzeentch moreso than most. Even bound to the material realm by a sorcerer's will, these daemons swell and ebb like a hellish tide.
    Each time a Morale test is failed for this unit, at the end of that phase, remove this unit from the battlefield and set it up in the Immaterium, as described in the Conjured From Beyond ability. Then return D3 destroyed models (excluding Blue Horrors, Brimstone Horrors, and Exalted Flamers) to this unit with their full wounds remaining.


    Conjured Horrors (Troops, Power Rating 4)
    Spoiler:
  • 0-10 Pink Horror: M 6"; WS 4+; BS 4+; S 4; T 3; W 1; A 1; Ld 7; Sv 6+
  • 0-20 Blue Horror: M 6"; WS 5+; BS 5+; S 3; T 3; W 1; A 1; Ld 7; Sv 6+
  • 0-20 Brimstone Horror Pair: M 6"; WS 5+; BS 5+; S 2; T 3; W 1; A 2; Ld 7; Sv 6+
  • This unit must contain at least 10 models, and cannot contain more than 20 models. If this unit contains between 11 and 20 models, it has Power Rating 8. Each Pink Horror model counts as 2 models for these purposes. Every model is equipped with: coruscating flames.

    Wargear
  • Coruscating flames: Range 18”; Type Pistol 2; Strength User; AP 0; Damage 1; Abilities: -
  • Iridescent maw: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength User; AP -1; Damage 1; Abilities: Each time the bearer fights, it makes 2 additional attacks with this weapon.

  • Blasted standard: Each time a model in the bearer's unit makes a ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.
  • Maddening instrument: The bearer's unit has the following ability: 'Maddening Cacophony (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 3" of this unit, subtract 1 from the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit, and subtract 1 from Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests made for that unit.'

  • Wargear Options
  • 1 Pink Horror not equipped with a blasted standard or maddening instrument can be equipped with 1 iridescent maw.
  • 1 Pink Horror not equipped with a blasted standard or iridescent maw can be equipped with 1 maddening instrument.
  • 1 Pink Horror not equipped with a maddening instrument or iridescent maw can be equipped with 1 blasted standard.

  • Abilities
  • Aetheric Attendant: See above.
  • Explosive Split: Each time a Pink Horror or Blue Horror model in this unit is destroyed, before removing that model from play you can choose for it to split. If a Pink Horror splits, you can add up to 2 Blue Horrors to this unit. If a Blue Horror splits, you can add up to 1 Brimstone Horror Pair to this unit. Models added to this unit in this way must be set up within 1” of the destroyed model, and can be set up within Engagement Range of enemy units that are already within Engagement Range of this unit. If you choose for a destroyed Pink Horror not to split, roll one D6; on a 2-4, the closest enemy unit within 6" of this unit suffers 1 mortal wound. On a 5+, it suffers 2 mortal wounds instead.
  • Pandaemonium: Each time an attack successfully wounds this unit, or this unit suffers a mortal wound, that attack or mortal wound must be allocated to the model with the highest Strength characteristic in this unit. If this unit contains no Pink Horrors, it cannot perform actions.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: CHAOS, TZEENTCH
  • Keywords: INFANTRY, DAEMON, CONJURED, HORRORS

  • Points costs:
  • Pink Horror: 16 points
  • Blue Horror: 8 points
  • Brimstone Horror Pair: 4 points

  • Blasted standard: 10 points
  • Iridescent maw: 5 points
  • Maddening instrument: 5 points


  • Conjured Flamers (Elites, Power Rating 3)
    Spoiler:
  • 3-9 Flamer: M 10"; WS 4+; BS 4+; S 4; T 4; W 2; A 2; Ld 7; Sv 6+
  • 0-1 Exalted Flamer: M 10"; WS 4+; BS 4+; S 4; T 4; W 2; A 2; Ld 7; Sv 6+
  • If this unit contains between 4 and 6 models, it has Power Rating 7. If this unit contains between 6 and 9 models, it has Power Rating 10. One Flamer in this unit can be an Exalted Flamer (Power Rating +2). Every model is equipped with: flickering flames; tongues of flame.

    Wargear
  • Flickering flames: Before selecting targets, select one of the profiles below to make attacks with.
  • -- Blue flames: Range 18"; Type Heavy D3; Strength +3; AP -4; Damage -; Abilities: Blast. This weapon's Damage characteristic is equal to the bearer's Attacks characteristic.
  • -- Pink flames: Range 12"; Type Pistol D6; Strength User; AP -1; Damage 1; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, that attack automatically hits the target.
  • Tongues of flame: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength User; AP -1; Damage 1; Abilities: -

  • Abilities
  • Aetheric Attendant: See above.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: CHAOS, TZEENTCH
  • Keywords: BEASTS, FLY, DAEMON, CONJURED, FLAMERS

  • Points costs:
  • Flamer: 24 points
  • Exalted Flamer: 55 points


  • Conjured Screamers (Fast Attack, Power Rating 3)
    Spoiler:
  • 3-9 Screamer: M 16"; WS 4+; BS 4+; S 4; T 4; W 2; A 3; Ld 7; Sv 6+
  • If this unit contains between 4 and 6 models, it has Power Rating 7. If this unit contains between 6 and 9 models, it has Power Rating 9. Every model is equipped with: lamprey bite.

    Wargear
  • Lamprey bite: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength +2; AP -3; Damage 2; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a MONSTER or VEHICLE unit, that attack has a Strength characteristic of +4.

  • Abilities
  • Aetheric Attendant: See above.
  • Slashing Tusks: Once per turn, after this unit has moved in your Movement phase, you can select one unit it moved across. Roll one D6 for each model in this unit: for each 6+, that unit suffers 1 mortal wound.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: CHAOS, TZEENTCH
  • Keywords: BEASTS, FLY, DAEMON, CONJURED, SCREAMERS

  • Points costs:
  • Screamer: 26 points


  • Conjured Burning Chariot (Heavy Support, Power Rating 5)
    Spoiler:
  • 1-3 Burning Chariot: M 14"; WS 3+; BS 3+; S 6; T 5; W 8; A 3; Ld 7; Sv 5+
  • If this unit contains 2 models, it has Power Rating 12. If this unit contains 3 models, it has Power Rating 18. Every model is equipped with: flickering flames; chariot's lamprey bites; tongues of flame.

    Wargear
  • Flickering flames: Before selecting targets, select one of the profiles below to make attacks with.
  • -- Blue flames: Range 18"; Type Heavy D3; Strength +3; AP -4; Damage -; Abilities: Blast. This weapon's Damage characteristic is equal to the bearer's Attacks characteristic.
  • -- Pink flames: Range 12"; Type Pistol D6; Strength User; AP -1; Damage 1; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, that attack automatically hits the target.
  • Gibberer's flames: Range 18”; Type Pistol 6; Strength -3; AP 0; Damage 1; Abilities: -

  • Chariot's lamprey bites: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength User; AP -3; Damage 2; Abilities: Each time the bearer fights, it makes 6 additional attacks with this weapon and no more than 6 attacks can be made with this weapon. Each time an attack is made with this weapon against a MONSTER or VEHICLE unit, that attack has a Strength characteristic of +2.
  • Tongues of flame: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength User; AP -1; Damage 1; Abilities: -

  • Gibberer’s chant: The bearer has the following ability: 'Maddening Cacophony (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 3" of this model, subtract 1 from the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit, and subtract 1 from Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests made for that unit.'

  • Wargear Options
  • Any model can be equipped with 1 gibberer's flames and 1 gibberer’s chant.

  • Abilities
  • Aetheric Attendant: See above.
  • Hellish Constellation: After this unit is set up on the battlefield for the first time, if this unit has more than 1 model, all models in this unit must be set up within 6" of another model from this unit. After they are set up for the first time, each model is treated as a separate unit.
  • Slashing Tusks: Once per turn, after this unit finishes a charge move, select one enemy unit within Engagement Range of this unit and roll three D6s: for each 5+, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.
  • Living Comet: At the end of the Fight phase, roll one D6 for each enemy unit within Engagement Range of this unit; on a 4+, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: CHAOS, TZEENTCH
  • Keywords: VEHICLE, CHARIOT, FLY, DAEMON, CONJURED, FLAMER, SCREAMER, BURNING CHARIOT

  • Points costs:
  • Burning Chariot: 100 points

  • Gibberer’s chant: 15 points


  • New Stratagems
    Storms of the Schemer (0 CP/1 CP)
    Thousand Sons - Strategic Ploy Stratagem
    Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select one TZEENTCH CONJURED DAEMON unit in your army, or up to 3 TZEENTCH CONJURED DAEMON CHARIOT units in your army. Remove that unit from the battlefield and set it up in the Immaterium, as described in the Conjured From Beyond ability.

    Warp Breach (1 ​CP/0 CP)
    Thousand Sons - Strategic Ploy Stratagem
    Use this Stratagem in the Reinforcements step of your Movement phase. Select one THOUSAND SONS CONJURED DAEMON unit from your army that is set up in the Immaterium. Set up that unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy units. If it is the second battle round, this Stratagem costs 1CP; otherwise, it costs 0CP.
    [/spoiler]

    This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/09/14 15:09:42


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    I'm afraid I'm not wild about this proposal. Conjuring Ritual seems like it could probably just be a generic Deepstrike rule on the daemons profiles. I get that you lose first turn summoning and the ability to trickle in daemons over the course of the game by doing that, but I'm not sure those features are inherently interesting enough to warrant adding another mechanic to the game. Taking an allied detachment and/or just adding the Conjured Daemon datasheets (and giving them Deepstrike) would get you very similar results without needing to add a new mechanic.

    Unstable doesn't really tell me a story; it sort of feels like a new mechanic for the sake of a new mechanic. If you pass a morale test, the unit acts like pseudo necrons, and they do so more reliably than official version daemons have now. If you fail a test, you lose dude via MW instead of losing wounds to CA tests. If you fail a morale test with a small squad, you lose more wounds worth of horrors on average with a small squad than you would using the GW rules, but you lose fewer wounds on average with a big squad. Mechanics that interact with CA tests (already considered niche and gimmicky) don't work against daemons; which is arguably more fluffy but also kind of a shame for players that have such features.

    So Unstable adds extra rules to the game, but those rules don't really do a lot to convey fluff or to give the units a significantly different playstyle. I'll be encouraged to wipe out my opponent's daemon units instead of leaving survivors, I suppose. Conjured Horrors are basically swapping out one objective camping trick for another.

    The profiles seem fine. The stratagems don't seem too powerful, but they also don't really make me go, "Oh cool!" I'm also not generally fond of stratagems that boil down to, "kill stuff better." Obviously there's precedent for strats that boost offense; I'm just not fond of them from an abstract game design perspective. They don't really change how a unit plays, and narratively it's weird that screamers can't be bothered to jab things with their tusks as well unless the commander tells them to put some effort into it. The only interesting decision it really creates is, "Is it worth X CP to do Y more damage?" And the answer to that is generally going going to be always yes, always no, or always yes given certain criteria.

    But those complaints are not unique to your suggestion here. I have the same problem with marines who suddenly start slacking off when the captain and lieutenant aren't around and CSM who can only be Veterans of the Long War one squad at a time and only so many times per game.

    I always enjoy reading your proposals. This one just falls a little flat for me. Now if you gave shooty, tanky, expensive Emperor's Children a bunch of stabby, fast, relatively affordable slaaneshi daemons to pal around with, that's some synergy I'd love to bring back.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    Wyldhunt wrote:
    I always enjoy reading your proposals. This one just falls a little flat for me. Now if you gave shooty, tanky, expensive Emperor's Children a bunch of stabby, fast, relatively affordable slaaneshi daemons to pal around with, that's some synergy I'd love to bring back.
    Yeah. Honestly, I agree that Daemons honestly don't add much to their mortal followers. World Eaters have a bunch of powerful melee units, and Khorne gives them... a bunch of powerful melee units. Death Guard have a bunch of slow, tanky units, and Nurgle gives them... a bunch of slow, tanky units. Plaguebearers are just Elite Poxwalkers! Thousand Sons have a bunch of psykers, high-AP shooting and invulnerable saves, and Tzeentch gives them... a bunch of psykers, high-AP shooting and invulnerable saves. The main addition is how mobile the Flamers, Screamers, and Chariots are, and even that's territory already occupied in part by the Enlightened and Daemon Engines. The only really distinct pairing is Emperor's Children with Slaaneshi Daemons, because the latter are speedy and fragile and melee-focused, while the former are Space Marines focused on mid-range shooting.

    If you wanted to integrate these more directly – and it's clear that GW doesn't – then Nurgle Daemons should be revolting pranksters who creep in and spring out from every direction, supplementing the slow, plodding Death Guard with sabotage and rearline corruption. Filling a tactical gap while staying in theme. That's part of what I was going for with giving Horrors and Chariots a Deny-penalty aura... though it's hopelessly short-range on the former. It's also why I integrated the Exalted Flamer's anti-vehicle option into Flamers, giving them all a gakky mini-melta – Thousand Sons have very poor anti-VEHICLE options, so a Deep Striking, Flying mini-melta squad felt like a potentially useful addition (compared to just More Warpflamers).

    The main reason for adding back Tzeentch Daemons is honestly just the visual – I like being able to properly field them together, for all that Horrors and Tzaangors (and Screamers and Enlightened, and Heralds and Shamans) are basically redundant in terms of tactical role. Adding a single keyword and making a few other shuffles means I can do that without losing the army's other benefits.
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Conjuring Ritual seems like it could probably just be a generic Deepstrike rule on the daemons profiles. I get that you lose first turn summoning and the ability to trickle in daemons over the course of the game by doing that, but I'm not sure those features are inherently interesting enough to warrant adding another mechanic to the game. Taking an allied detachment and/or just adding the Conjured Daemon datasheets (and giving them Deepstrike) would get you very similar results without needing to add a new mechanic.
    Before talking about Conjuring Ritual, I might as well say that I did, in theory, intend for each God/Legion to get its own way of summoning. Thousand Sons get Conjuring Ritual, which requires lots of Psykers and uses up your Psychic "resources", but is reliable and a good early move if you've no actual targets within range of an Aspiring Sorcerer. Death Guard would get Corrupting Ritual, which would allow you to summon daemons in any board quarter you "controlled", and probably interact with Contagion Range somehow, to suggest a creeping, spreading corrosion. World Eaters would get Bloody Ritual, which would key off killing things as a sacrifice, and Emperor's Children would... I dunno, Hedonistic Ritual? Choral Ritual, to key off "harmonising" your sonic weapons? Then Chaos Space Marines would get the basic Daemonic Ritual, which would just be an action you do with CHARACTERS.

    Equally, the Infernal Master would get access to a second set of Pacts for summoning and buffing Daemons/Daemon Engines, the Blightbringer would swap one of its basic auras for a list of six "Chimes" it could toll like a Chaplain, one of which would be daemon summoning, CSM have the Master of Possession, and so on. Full Daemonic Legion armies would get "Warp Rifts" as their army bonus, which would be like moving "transport" tokens you could disembark units from.

    To actually talk about Conjuring Ritual... basically, I like the idea of Daemonic Ritual – having to actively summon in your daemonic allies with special rites. It's great lore. It just feels very limp in practice, because the upside is being able to choose wholly new units – which is meaningless for 90% of players. Making it into a built-in, free "Drop Pod" that requires a special action or circumstance to trigger made more sense to me – you have more flexibility with your "Deep Strikes", but less reliability/it comes with an action cost. Unfortunately, the 9" range weakens that even further – even if you set up a unit of Rubrics, they Advance 9", and then you summon Flamers wholly within 9"... you're not far from where you'd be if you just set them up and had them Advance in the first place. Removing "wholly" would help, but it still undermines the primary application of Deep Strike, which is to set up allies where you aren't or can't get to.

    The problem I keep running into is that once you've decided to introduce an upside to the basic Deep Strike (in exchange for the downside of summoning), there are basically three ways you can modify it – where you can set up the unit, when you can set up the unit, and how close to the enemy you can set up the unit.
  • "Where" is hard to make into a bonus, because the default is "anywhere on the battlefield", and Daemonic/Conjuring Ritual actually limits that to "within X of the summoner". Which is a restriction that probably should be removed if Conjuring Ritual is going to be worth it at all. A range limit, changeable or otherwise, is only a worthwhile addition if Daemons get a serious discount for requiring summoning in the first place.
  • "When" is just "turn one or not". That's a bonus that loses its utility immediately after the first battle round, and is especially awkward given the lore for daemons is usually that they find it easier to arrive as the battle rages and the ritual grinds on and the sacrifices mount. The only other way you can modify "when" is to introduce reactive Deep Strikes on your opponent's turn – the only unit to do this at the moment is the Sanguinor, who is a unique single character that can do a Heroic Intervention into combat from Reserves. That's perhaps fitting for Daemons (summoned to protect their masters or called in by the carnage), but it's also very powerful.
  • "How Close" is the most obvious buff to give a Deep Strike effect, and it's also extremely powerful and very rare, for good reason. Guard can set up MILITARUM TEMPESTUS more than 5" away with a Stratagem, but they're not melee units by any stretch; it's just so they can Rapid Fire. T'au can do the same with a Homing Beacon and a Battlesuit, but, again, not melee; no-one bothers with it, for good reason. Mawlocs can do it, but can't charge that turn, which is the primary reason for wanting to do it in the first place. Even "disembark from a TRANSPORT after it moved, and still be able to Charge" is rare! Orks have one Specialist Mob that can move-then-disembark-then-Charge. I think that's it.


  • Wyldhunt wrote:
    Unstable doesn't really tell me a story; it sort of feels like a new mechanic for the sake of a new mechanic. If you pass a morale test, the unit acts like pseudo necrons, and they do so more reliably than official version daemons have now. If you fail a test, you lose dude via MW instead of losing wounds to CA tests. If you fail a morale test with a small squad, you lose more wounds worth of horrors on average with a small squad than you would using the GW rules, but you lose fewer wounds on average with a big squad. Mechanics that interact with CA tests (already considered niche and gimmicky) don't work against daemons; which is arguably more fluffy but also kind of a shame for players that have such features.

    So Unstable adds extra rules to the game, but those rules don't really do a lot to convey fluff or to give the units a significantly different playstyle. I'll be encouraged to wipe out my opponent's daemon units instead of leaving survivors, I suppose. Conjured Horrors are basically swapping out one objective camping trick for another.
    So, Unstable is intended to be a universal rule for Daemons regardless of faction, like Daemonic. The intent is to promote absolutely wiping out your opponent's daemons – you can't wear them down bit by bit, you have to focus fire and make sure there's nothing left. Burn them all out. That seems quite lore-friendly, and also means that any Leadership/Morale-boosting abilities from "leader" daemons make them more likely to respawn and reinforce, which is also lore-appropriate. Although Insane Bravery probably ought to be banned for Daemons, even at only once per battle.

    The swap from Combat Attrition to flat mortal wounds has three effects:
  • First, it means that Pink Horrors get to split upon "dying" to Morale, which is important because of how much of their points cost that ability represents, now that splitting doesn't eat reinforcement points.
  • Second, it promotes large units of infantry daemons – Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, etc – who don't risk losing more models the more models are in the unit.
  • Third, it allows me to keep Daemon leadership at a flat 7 without screwing over powerful, expensive units that have lots of wounds, like Skullcrushers or Plague Drones. Everything in the Tzeentch Daemons list is either a single model, a Pink Horror, or has two wounds, so I didn't bother here, but the full version would essentially key off wounds – D6 mortal wounds, and D6/D3/1 returned model for 1/2/3-4 Wounds. Or D6 mortal wounds, D6 healed wounds (with excess healing spilling over into revivals).

  • And yeah, it's a shame that it screws CA penalties, but frankly, they were screwed right from the start of 9e. Still blows my mind that the devs went to the trouble of creating a whole new Morale system with plenty of mechanical hooks, then gave all Space Marine armies the innate ability to ignore the most potent modifier, no matter the source. I've all but given up on bothering to interact with Combat Attrition.

    Wyldhunt wrote:
    The profiles seem fine. The stratagems don't seem too powerful, but they also don't really make me go, "Oh cool!" I'm also not generally fond of stratagems that boil down to, "kill stuff better." Obviously there's precedent for strats that boost offense; I'm just not fond of them from an abstract game design perspective. They don't really change how a unit plays, and narratively it's weird that screamers can't be bothered to jab things with their tusks as well unless the commander tells them to put some effort into it. The only interesting decision it really creates is, "Is it worth X CP to do Y more damage?" And the answer to that is generally going going to be always yes, always no, or always yes given certain criteria.
    I'm with you there, honestly. I can at least take satisfaction in Flames of Mutation promoting certain kinds of units (all warpflamer Rubrics, which are ludicrously expensive for their utility, and large Horror swarms), and notably changing what Horrors can reliably/potentially kill. Warp Jaws could be more interesting, though – maybe make it a "swarm the target" thing and have it apply to a single enemy unit for the whole turn, regardless of how many Screamers use their Slashing Tusks?

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/02 12:59:57


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    RevlidRas wrote:
    Yeah. Honestly, I agree that Daemons honestly don't add much to their mortal followers. World Eaters have a bunch of powerful melee units, and Khorne gives them... a bunch of powerful melee units. Death Guard have a bunch of slow, tanky units, and Nurgle gives them... a bunch of slow, tanky units. Plaguebearers are just Elite Poxwalkers! Thousand Sons have a bunch of psykers, high-AP shooting and invulnerable saves, and Tzeentch gives them... a bunch of psykers, high-AP shooting and invulnerable saves. The main addition is how mobile the Flamers, Screamers, and Chariots are, and even that's territory already occupied in part by the Enlightened and Daemon Engines. The only really distinct pairing is Emperor's Children with Slaaneshi Daemons, because the latter are speedy and fragile and melee-focused, while the former are Space Marines focused on mid-range shooting.

    If you wanted to integrate these more directly – and it's clear that GW doesn't – then Nurgle Daemons should be revolting pranksters who creep in and spring out from every direction, supplementing the slow, plodding Death Guard with sabotage and rearline corruption. Filling a tactical gap while staying in theme. That's part of what I was going for with giving Horrors and Chariots a Deny-penalty aura... though it's hopelessly short-range on the former. It's also why I integrated the Exalted Flamer's anti-vehicle option into Flamers, giving them all a gakky mini-melta – Thousand Sons have very poor anti-VEHICLE options, so a Deep Striking, Flying mini-melta squad felt like a potentially useful addition (compared to just More Warpflamers).

    At the risk of wandering off topic... If I were to redesign lesser daemons with the intention of them being rolled into the CSM books rather than being in a separate Codex: Daemons, I'd probably do something like this:
    * Horrors would probably emphasize their splitting mechanic. You'd use psykers and cultists to deepstrike them into position, then count on them to hold objectives where rubrics are too expensive for that job and cultists and Tzaangor are too squishy. Alternatively, I'd be tempted to let horrors temporarily lower the Toughness of the thing they shoot at to synergize with screamers and help rubricae kill tanks without dedicated anti-tank weapons. The fluff being that the horrors' flames transmute the target's outer armor into less durable materials. Or maybe their squad leaders could "curse" targets with their shooting attacks to make them weak to witchfire powers in the next turn. Lots of possibilities.

    * With Nurgle daemons, I'd make the Death Guard Toughness penalty a daemon thing. Being near the daemons would make armor erode and cause mortals to start withering or infect mortals with horrible illness when they suffer the tiniest scratch. So while the daemons might not be squishier and no more killy than the plague marines, they become a support unit that you want to get close to the enemy while the marines hunker down on objectives. (Thus benefitting from their famous durability.)

    * Slaanesh doesn't really need a gimmick. As we've already discussed, quick and stabby squishies compliment durable shooty boys nicely.

    * Khorne is a little harder because both the marines and the daemons are so one-note. I guess I'd lean into the marines offering fire support while the daemons are extra spicy in melee? Having the daemons be summoned by violence (as you proposed) could turn them into a good second wave/horde force that requires some initial bloodshed to really take off.


    Before talking about Conjuring Ritual, I might as well say that I did, in theory, intend for each God/Legion to get its own way of summoning. Thousand Sons get Conjuring Ritual, which requires lots of Psykers and uses up your Psychic "resources", but is reliable and a good early move if you've no actual targets within range of an Aspiring Sorcerer. Death Guard would get Corrupting Ritual, which would allow you to summon daemons in any board quarter you "controlled", and probably interact with Contagion Range somehow, to suggest a creeping, spreading corrosion. World Eaters would get Bloody Ritual, which would key off killing things as a sacrifice, and Emperor's Children would... I dunno, Hedonistic Ritual? Choral Ritual, to key off "harmonising" your sonic weapons? Then Chaos Space Marines would get the basic Daemonic Ritual, which would just be an action you do with CHARACTERS.

    Cool in theory. Probably difficult to balance against each other, but cool. I'd be tempted to do something like:
    * Tzeentch: Works basically as you've proposed in this thread, but you'd want to get rid of other deepstrike options among daemons to make it more unique/matter more.
    * Nurgle: Place corruption tokens along the board edge outside the enemy deployment zone. Each command phase, you get to place additional corruption tokens (based on game size?) within 6" of existing tokens. Nurgle daemons can arrive within 3" of such tokens when arriving from strategic reserves and must remain more than 7" from the enemy (instead of 9). This means that nurgle armies will have really strong deepstriking, but only near the areas they've corrupted. Optionally, you oculd allow units to purge these tokens as an action or something.
    *Slaanesh would probably torture a model to death as an action. The model's corpse can become a marker from which slaaneshi units can arrive from strategic reserves. Include a stratagem to put down a marker when you kill a unit in melee with a Slaaneshi unit.
    * Khorne could just gain back a version of the Blood Tithe system. It seemed really well-received. I miss it. Or you could just put down a marker beneath the last model in a unit to die. Maybe have the khorne markers go away after a turn or get "used up" after a unit arrives through them to balance them against the Slaaneshi version.


    Full Daemonic Legion armies would get "Warp Rifts" as their army bonus, which would be like moving "transport" tokens you could disembark units from.

    Cool. I like that a lot. Might be annoying in practice, but it sounds rad on paper.


    So, Unstable is intended to be a universal rule for Daemons regardless of faction, like Daemonic. The intent is to promote absolutely wiping out your opponent's daemons – you can't wear them down bit by bit, you have to focus fire and make sure there's nothing left. Burn them all out. That seems quite lore-friendly, and also means that any Leadership/Morale-boosting abilities from "leader" daemons make them more likely to respawn and reinforce, which is also lore-appropriate. Although Insane Bravery probably ought to be banned for Daemons, even at only once per battle.

    Hrmm. Still not sure I'm sold on it. I don't recall needing to wipe out all the daemons at once really being a thing. Nor do I recall them being especially necron-y in nature. They ignore physics to survive seemingly lethal attacks, and they're generally found erupting from the warp in droves so that their numbers seem to swell over time; but it's not like 3 daemonettes running around unattended will multiply into 10 daemonettes a minute later. If anything, "wearing them down bit by bit," does kind of seem to be the proper tactics to use against them if you can. Their "batteries" are constantly draining while they're in the materium, and they need mortal emotions and magic rituals to recharge said batteries. So if an army of daemons is sieging your city and you can keep them from getting inside the walls, they might actually vanish eventually provided they don't have a steady supply of warp energy to draw on.

    I've all but given up on bothering to interact with Combat Attrition.
    That's fair.

    Warp Jaws could be more interesting, though – maybe make it a "swarm the target" thing and have it apply to a single enemy unit for the whole turn, regardless of how many Screamers use their Slashing Tusks?

    Sure. It's probably fine as-is. Just kind of :\ for the same reason the GW official stratagems that do similar things are.
       
     
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