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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Just a random idea that came into my head, with all the subfactions we have that should be permitted to be taken into other main factions. Not just Assassins. Something like:

Adeptus Mechanicus:
Can be taken by Adepta Sororita, Adeptus Custodes, Astra Militarum, Inquisition, or Sisters of Silence.

HQ:
- Tech-Priest Enginseer: Master of Machines and Awaken the Machine change the faction keyword from <Forge World> to Imperium.

Elites:
- Servitors

Adeptus Ministorum:
Can be taken by Adepta Sororita, Adeptus Custodes, Astra Militarum, Inquisition, or Sisters of Silence.

HQ:
- Missionary: War Hymn change the faction keyword to Imperium.

Elites:
- Arco-flagellants
- Crusaders
- Death Cult Assassins
- Preacher: War Hymn change the faction keyword to Imperium.

Astra Telepathica:
Can be taken by any Imperium faction.

Elites:
- Astropath: Astral Divination change the faction keyword to Imperium. When choosing a power from the Psykana discipline you may change the faction keyword from Astra Militarum to Imperium. If you choose the Psychic Barrier or the Nightshroud powers increase their warp charge value to 7.

Officio Assassinorum:
Can be taken by any Imperium faction.

Elites:
- Callidus Assassin
- Culexus Assassin
- Eversor Assassin
- Vindicare Assassin

Scholastica Psykana:
Can be taken by Astra Militarum, Inquisition, or Sisters of Silence.

HQ:
- Primaris Psyker: When choosing a power from the Psykana discipline you may change the faction keyword from Astra Militarum to Imperium. If you choose the Psychic Barrier or the Nightshroud powers increase their warp charge value to 7.

Elites:
- Wyrdvane Psykers: When choosing a power from the Psykana discipline you may change the faction keyword from Astra Militarum to Imperium. If you choose the Psychic Barrier or the Nightshroud powers increase their warp charge value to 7.

* * * * *

Obviously this is very early stages, I'd like to add Rogue Traders and Navigators, but the only datasheets we have representing them are named characters and I'm trying to avoid letting any faction get them.

Essentially the intent is to represent the true inner workings of the Imperium, letting you to not only draw on the Assassins in your armies but other "Imperial Agents" you often find outside of their regular factions in the lore.

Take the Adeptus Mechanicus for example, they maintain all of the Imperiums technology as they're often the only ones with the knowledge and expertise to do so. While it might seem strange for the Ad-Mech and Sororitas to work together they actually do. Here's an in-universe example:

"Eventually the two organisations came to an agreement, the Fornosian Accords: the Mechanicus would have access to the databanks, and in exchange the Ministorum would have exclusive claim to any new technologies discovered. After inspecting through the databanks, the only new design to be found was for a flame-thrower tank. Combining this knowledge with known STC designs for the Rhino, the Tech-priests of Mars came up with the Immolator and began exclusive production of it for the Ministorum."

What does this achieve in-game? Well, the Adepta Sororita currently don't have any vehicle support characters. Allowing them to take a Tech-priest Enginseer means they can now repair their vehicles and give them a +1 to Hit. While the Tech-priest does lose all their bonuses from not being in an Adeptus Mechanicus detachment, but since they are now considered an Imperial Agent no longer negatively impact the Adepta Sororita detachment.

The next example would be Astropaths, everyone uses them. They're literally the linchpin of the Imperiums communication. By slightly changing their ability keywords we can easily make them support characters for other Imperium factions, while also nerfing their main abilities as they'll be buffing more durable units than those found in the Imperial Guard.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/16 01:23:53


 
   
Made in us
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I feel like granting sisters and custodes access to Psychic Barrier and Nightshroud has a lot of potential for abuse; even with the increased WC. Those powers are generally fine on IG units because most of the units they benefit are squishy (humans), have limited threat range (bullgryn), or else are expensive enough that they're not really OP even with those buffs (tank commanders and baneblades).

Being able to make bladeguard and custodes -1 to hit (thus freeing them from needing certain chapter tactics to get those buffs), giving sisters easier access to 2+/4++ saves, making imperial knights -1 to hit, etc. all seem quite a bit more scary than the current available applications of those powers. And making it so that those powers have a ~55% chance of success before CP rerolls doesn't seem like an ideal way to balance them. After all, people are quick to tell me how good my farseers are with their WC7 powers. (And they're not wrong.)

But I'm on board with the general notion of fleshing out some of the minor characters in the setting and maybe showing some more imperial cohesion.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I feel like granting sisters and custodes access to Psychic Barrier and Nightshroud has a lot of potential for abuse; even with the increased WC.

Being able to make bladeguard and custodes -1 to hit (thus freeing them from needing certain chapter tactics to get those buffs), giving sisters easier access to 2+/4++ saves, making imperial knights -1 to hit, etc. all seem quite a bit more scary than the current available applications of those powers. And making it so that those powers have a ~55% chance of success before CP rerolls doesn't seem like an ideal way to balance them. After all, people are quick to tell me how good my farseers are with their WC7 powers. (And they're not wrong.)


Custodes get a very cheap 6 inch bubble of -1 to hit. 120 points and works on every Custode unit in that aura, without fail.

Though I see your point regarding Psychic Barrier. Custodes with stormshields going to a 2++ could be problematic. I'll raise Psychic Barriers WC to 8. It won't be as reliable to cast as Nightshroud but I don't see Nightshroud being nearly as problematic.

But I'm on board with the general notion of fleshing out some of the minor characters in the setting and maybe showing some more imperial cohesion.


Nice. I don't think there's any more generic characters with subfactions. I think the rest are all named characters.
   
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Custodes cant get better than a 3++ (its in their ability).

Would still be a bit bonkers to give spear guard a 3++ though as they are cheap enough at 45pts that they would be scary. Sagg guard too.

Fluff-wise though, no, custodes wouldnt take any psychers along with them in battle.

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Made in us
Using Object Source Lighting





Portland

Yeah, a lot of these things or their equivalents might be involved behind the scenes, but not as solos and without penalty. There are already mechanics for adding non-faction stuff to armies, or for adding detachments.

Personally, I'd go with the old inquisition rules from 3.5 as a starting point: with limitations, you can take a mixed detachment.

Inquisitors can take some options associated with their relevant order and maybe a few weird choices, everyone can take the basic inquisition choices, traditional storm troopers become their other troops, things without a home (rogue traders, maybe that Blackstone robot) get shoe-horned in, as do a few that feel appropriate to such a formation like yeah astropaths.

So, currently the difference is a little more structure and limits, and they require a formation.

Then start swapping around appropriate keywords (deathwatch can be ordo xenos, storm troopers can be any ordo), replacing all instances with that ordo (plus maybe subfactions like for rogue traders), and you have a group that plays well together (representing them having worked for a bit together), but not just a carte blanche to mix whatever imperial stuff you want and actually get buffs for picking and choosing.


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Made in ca
Kroot Carnivore





Vanus and Venenum Assasins could be added to the Officio Assasinorum list. Would be interesting to see how they would work on the tabletop given that their abilities are mostly indirect.

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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Inquisitors can take some options associated with their relevant order and maybe a few weird choices, everyone can take the basic inquisition choices, traditional storm troopers become their other troops, things without a home (rogue traders, maybe that Blackstone robot) get shoe-horned in, as do a few that feel appropriate to such a formation like yeah astropaths.

So, currently the difference is a little more structure and limits, and they require a formation.

Then start swapping around appropriate keywords (deathwatch can be ordo xenos, storm troopers can be any ordo), replacing all instances with that ordo (plus maybe subfactions like for rogue traders), and you have a group that plays well together (representing them having worked for a bit together), but not just a carte blanche to mix whatever imperial stuff you want and actually get buffs for picking and choosing.


Personally, I'd do this for codex Inquisition. Actually make it worthwhile to take a mono-Inquisition detachment. Firstly, I'd give them a rule called Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. That lets them take Militarum Tempestus units in their detachment, and they swap their <Tempestus Regiment> keyword for the <Ordo> keyword.

Then add a 3 CP stratagem for the 3 main Ordos, called Chapter Militant. It then lets you take Deathwatch if Ordo Xeno, Grey Knights if Ordo Malleus, and Adepta Soroitas if Ordo Hereticus in an Inquisition detachment and they gain the relevant Ordo keyword.

 Tawnis wrote:
Vanus and Venenum Assasins could be added to the Officio Assasinorum list. Would be interesting to see how they would work on the tabletop given that their abilities are mostly indirect.


Never heard of these assassins before, what do they do?
   
Made in us
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Jarms48 wrote:
 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Inquisitors can take some options associated with their relevant order and maybe a few weird choices, everyone can take the basic inquisition choices, traditional storm troopers become their other troops, things without a home (rogue traders, maybe that Blackstone robot) get shoe-horned in, as do a few that feel appropriate to such a formation like yeah astropaths.

So, currently the difference is a little more structure and limits, and they require a formation.

Then start swapping around appropriate keywords (deathwatch can be ordo xenos, storm troopers can be any ordo), replacing all instances with that ordo (plus maybe subfactions like for rogue traders), and you have a group that plays well together (representing them having worked for a bit together), but not just a carte blanche to mix whatever imperial stuff you want and actually get buffs for picking and choosing.


Personally, I'd do this for codex Inquisition. Actually make it worthwhile to take a mono-Inquisition detachment. Firstly, I'd give them a rule called Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. That lets them take Militarum Tempestus units in their detachment, and they swap their <Tempestus Regiment> keyword for the <Ordo> keyword.

Then add a 3 CP stratagem for the 3 main Ordos, called Chapter Militant. It then lets you take Deathwatch if Ordo Xeno, Grey Knights if Ordo Malleus, and Adepta Soroitas if Ordo Hereticus in an Inquisition detachment and they gain the relevant Ordo keyword.

That kind of sounds like allied detachments with extra steps. If you want DWatch with an inquisitor, you can just take a DW detachment with an inquisitor in it. And then ally in a scion detachment. You could probably add a scion regiment representing their affiliation with various ordos if you wanted though. Would that accomplish pretty much what you're describing?

 Tawnis wrote:
Vanus and Venenum Assasins could be added to the Officio Assasinorum list. Would be interesting to see how they would work on the tabletop given that their abilities are mostly indirect.


Never heard of these assassins before, what do they do?

One of them (Venenum?) is the poison specialist, I believe. Could be cool to let them poison some terrain features before the game causing enemy units to take hits (mortal wounds?) if they begin or end their turn on poisoned terrain. Give them a lhamean inspired arsenal and maybe a piece of wargear that lets them put down poison tokens mid-game? Treat them as zoners rather than direct combatants. They lose a straight up fight with the other assassins, but they can make big chunks of the battlefield miserable for the enemy.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

You could also give certain agents as an option for Xenos races - eg Inquisitors and Rogue Traders.


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Gathering the Informations.

Scions aren't the same thing as Inquisitorial Stormtroopers at this point...but the question remains how to differentiate these kinds of things.

What would an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper unit do that Scions don't?
Simplest answer is to bring in some of the weird, arcane wargear and to open up some flexibility. Things like the Incinerator rather than a standard Flamer, Grenade Launchers with variable rounds, Bolters or Autoguns with variable rounds as standard, etc.

Vanus and Venenum Assassins aren't really "battlefield" material. They're best served as stratagems, if that even because they would be doing things that there is 0 counter to.
   
Made in ca
Kroot Carnivore





Jarms48 wrote:
 spiralingcadaver wrote:


 Tawnis wrote:
Vanus and Venenum Assasins could be added to the Officio Assasinorum list. Would be interesting to see how they would work on the tabletop given that their abilities are mostly indirect.


Never heard of these assassins before, what do they do?


The Vanus assassin is a Tech based Assasin, kind of like a clade for the Mechanicum. Their specialties are recon and sabotage, but they aren't very physically strong and try to avoid direct combat. Could be something like, if you take him you get X number of pregame moves from gathering intelligence. Could also be something like you plant spy devices in X terrain features and so long as your assassin is alive, enemy units cannot gain bonuses from that cover? Maybe some kind of anti-vehicle abilities too, like the Culexus is anti-Psyker.

The Venenum is a poison assassin. Perhaps could have some kind of DoT ability? Like an unsaved wound also gives a non-vehicle MODEL a poison counter that cannot be removed (except maybe by a medic/apothecary though that may be too niche) and deals an additional Mortal Wound every turn? Maybe some kind of Blast Gas attack that does the a similar thing? I think that tracking things like poison would be cumbersome if it were a general rule, but I think on a single model it could work.

If you are interested, the Horus Heresy book nemesis features them prominently and is fairly stand alone.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/23 14:53:19


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Made in us
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Gathering the Informations.

Vanus aren't "recon and sabotage", it's just technology and logistics.

The one in "Nemesis" was the "recon" guy because of his specific specialties and gear.

Like I said, these two don't really work in 40k beyond stratagems. They just wouldn't be fun for anyone to play against.
   
Made in ca
Kroot Carnivore





 Kanluwen wrote:
Vanus aren't "recon and sabotage", it's just technology and logistics.

The one in "Nemesis" was the "recon" guy because of his specific specialties and gear.

Like I said, these two don't really work in 40k beyond stratagems. They just wouldn't be fun for anyone to play against.


Yeah, okay, but tech/logistics work really well with sabotage/recon, it's not like he's the only one of his clade that did that.

Just because there isn't an easy answer, doesn't mean it can't be done. You may be right, but there would be no way to actually know without a lot of experimenting and playtesting. Fitting the game into a box and saying "you can only do these things otherwise it won't be fun" limits design space and stifles creativity.

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Gathering the Informations.

I never said that he was--I simply said that his whole schtick was specifically that.

Worth mentioning in any regards that their literal description from Nemesis is "Infocytes". Their hallmark weapon was a "cogitator gauntlet", a device that let them control a kind of remote-control metal "fly", or to see through the eyes of their psyber-eagles/rats if they had them.

I just cannot see any way, shape, or form of that Clade functioning without it being a massive middle finger to an opponent ala Agents of Vect was or something that just ruins the flow of a game in an onerous manner.
   
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Could make them a character that deploys cyber familiar tokens. Cyber familiars can be moved up to 6" in the command phase. If an enemy unit arrives from reserves within X" of a cyber familiar token, you can remove the token to allow one of your units to shoot at the arriving unit. If the assassin is killed, immediately remove all of his cyber familiar tokens from the table. Make him relatively cheap, and boom. You've got a situational-but-useful unit that changes the way your army behaves.
   
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Gathering the Informations.

They suffer from the same issue as Guard characters do, to be frank.

The higher the rank? The less business they have being on the battlefield, period.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
They suffer from the same issue as Guard characters do, to be frank.

The higher the rank? The less business they have being on the battlefield, period.

On that point, I'm inclined to agree. Something like having a patch of terrain poisoned pre-game or taking some cyber familiars into battle probably work better as stratagems, wargear, etc. Similarly, a master of ordnance could probably be represented with a stratagem or by buying limited use off-the-table shooting rather than sticking a dude on the table with some magnoculars.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

From what I've read, the Vanus assassins use tech, logistics and control to eliminate targets.

For example, the Vanus may create false propaganda to create an uprising which results in the death of their target.

Given this nature, I don't think it can be properly represented in a 5-turn tabletop game. If we had to however, I'd give them the standard Assassin stats, perhaps a Hotshot Laspistol, Combat Knife (with Ap-1), and a load of abilities, such as:

- Comes with 3 Servo Skulls, similar to the old 5th GK Codex.
- Can boobytrap one objective marker, written down and kept secret.
- Can select an enemy unit within range and LoS, such unit can't benefit from auras for that turn.

   
 
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