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Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm






So there is a question floating around the r/Necrontyr sub and it's discord about the Triarch Stalker. Since the Stalker does not have a base people are arguing heavily in favor of the Stalker being able to have units (ally or enemy) directly under it. I always understood that no model can end up with another model under it but since the Stalker stands just tall enough you can fit infantry models under it.

Am I crazy in fighting against this interaction or is it legally allowable even if it's messed up?
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 Tauris_Blazestar wrote:
So there is a question floating around the r/Necrontyr sub and it's discord about the Triarch Stalker. Since the Stalker does not have a base people are arguing heavily in favor of the Stalker being able to have units (ally or enemy) directly under it. I always understood that no model can end up with another model under it but since the Stalker stands just tall enough you can fit infantry models under it.

Am I crazy in fighting against this interaction or is it legally allowable even if it's messed up?

Perfectly allowed AFAIK. You can tri-point one of the Stalker's feet as well by having one model step under it.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Even assuming this does work, it has to be possible to move the model without lifting it such that it ended up with the other model underneath. You cant move 'through' the other model (even if it's friendly). And if you have to rotate the model to get over it you'll need to account for that in the total distance moved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 19:35:31


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Counterpoint, OP:

Core Rules

Measuring Distances:
"If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull."

So we know the whole model counts as hull.

Movement Phase, 1. Move Units: "…no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models…"

So if any part of your model (100% hull as we've discovered) is above another model then you have demonstrably moved across it to end up there, which is not allowed.

This play seems to be disallowed by the corest of core rules, it seems. If we have to start defining and misdefining "across" then I know we're into disingenuous stuff so let's not do that... looking at one person in particular...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/26 22:41:30


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Counterpoint, OP:

Core Rules

Measuring Distances:
"If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull."

So we know the whole model counts as hull.

Movement Phase, 1. Move Units: "…no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models…"

So if any part of your model (100% hull as we've discovered) is above another model then you have demonstrably moved across it to end up there, which is not allowed.

This play seems to be disallowed by the corest of core rules, it seems. If we have to start defining and misdefining "across" then I know we're into disingenuous stuff so let's not do that... looking at one person in particular...
Above does not = across.


Above is just that, above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 22:57:41


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

And we're there immediately. Fantastic. Great work team.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 JohnnyHell wrote:
And we're there immediately. Fantastic. Great work team.
Because somehow you tried to equate across with above, those two things have different meanings.

If the hull was not elevated from the battlefield, then it would be moving across the model, since the hull on the stalker is elevated, it is moving over a model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 23:11:54


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I have to say this is a odd question.

If you have a Custodes Ares Gunship, I can't put models underneath it, as literally everything underneath it is considered hull. Not just the base mount. Just imagine everything under the Stalker is filled in and there is a perfectly outlined base, under the legs. This is how flyers are able to block movement, and shooting.

So no, you are literally not able to put something under a very tall unit.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Hey DeathReaper, look, in an actual game I'd let people stand a cool model over other cool models, but if you can't accept a model moving from not eclipsing another to literally standing over it is "moving across" the other model in game terms, well, haha I'm done with the thread and knew I would be. Assumed it would be p5, but DeathReaper, you win (lose?) the crown on this occasion. Congrats.

Edit: oh I see you've edited your post and in the process invented rules terms of your own that just don't appear in the rules. Fantastic work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/26 23:16:12


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Hey DeathReaper, look, in an actual game I'd let people stand a cool model over other cool models, but if you can't accept a model moving from not eclipsing another to literally standing over it is "moving across" the other model in game terms, well, haha I'm done with the thread and knew I would be. Assumed it would be p5, but DeathReaper, you win (lose?) the crown on this occasion. Congrats.

Edit: oh I see you've edited your post and in the process invented rules terms of your own that just don't appear in the rules. Fantastic work.
Invented rules? how do you mean?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Please show me photographic evidence of this ever being allowed on a table in 40k. For any units? I can only think of Knights and Knightlike units being big enough to do this on, and those don't have fly, but are very specific on how you are not allowed to do this.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Johnny - but DR is right. Moving across is not the same as moving above it. Not in this context.
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




I would think across includes above, but don't you also have to keep more than 1" from other enemy models unless you're in combat? Or is this now just about moving over friendly models?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 16:06:33


 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

GW should make bases mandatory for every model, to avoid these situations, or clarify the rules. A stalker can be on top of other models, as long as he is more than 1" away from enemy models, counting from its hull, which is body and legs.

I have a side question. Can a stalker end its move with a barricade underneath him ? Does he suffer the -2 to move ? The rules say that models cannot end its move on top of a barricade. But, is a stalker on top of a barricade, when he is above it ? He is tall enough to not touch it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

If you have a Custodes Ares Gunship, I can't put models underneath it, as literally everything underneath it is considered hull. Not just the base mount. Just imagine everything under the Stalker is filled in and there is a perfectly outlined base, under the legs. This is how flyers are able to block movement, and shooting.


Citation please. There is nothing in the rules saying you cant have models under the gunships hull, as long as you are not within engagement range of it. On the contrary, the rules mention how units can move beneath them.

AIRCRAFT
Some models have the AIRCRAFT keyword. In addition to the Flying rules, the following rules further describe how these units move across the battlefield and how other units can move beneath them.


AIRCRAFT ENGAGEMENT RANGE
Although AIRCRAFT models have an Engagement Range like any other model, the following rules and exceptions apply to it – this will account for the fact that typically AIRCRAFT models are soaring overhead and not skimming along the ground.

Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved across AIRCRAFT models (and their bases) as if they were not there, and they can be moved within an enemy AIRCRAFT model’s Engagement Range, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within Engagement Range of any enemy AIRCRAFT models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 04:10:14


 
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 JohnnyHell wrote:
So if any part of your model (100% hull as we've discovered) is above another model then you have demonstrably moved across it to end up there, which is not allowed.

What if I moved under a Triarch Stalker with an Ork Boy or a Necron Warrior? Is moving under the same as moving across? Can 1 model block my Triarch Stalker's movement by moving under it and thereby making me unable to move because I'd have to move across it?
 p5freak wrote:
I have a side question. Can a stalker end its move with a barricade underneath him ? Does he suffer the -2 to move ? The rules say that models cannot end its move on top of a barricade. But, is a stalker on top of a barricade, when he is above it ? He is tall enough to not touch it.

Yes, as long as you are not touching it you are not on top of it. You get the -2 because you are moving over part of the terrain feature. "any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 07:01:23


 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Les Etats Unis

 JohnnyHell wrote:
And we're there immediately. Fantastic. Great work team.


I also cannot believe this is a discussion. The most baffling part is the implication that while the Stalker apparently moves "over" other models, other models would not go "over" each other if you tried to move, say, a predator past a tactical squad.

You are going to be lifting the model over the other models either way, correct? Do most 40k players physically drag their models' bases across the table whenever they move them? If I pick up my predator and carry it to the end of its move, over the tactical squad, can I just count it as going over? What if it's a Knight? Those have big legs.

If I want to end my chaos lord's movement on top of a rhino, can I do it under these rules? After all, the chaos lord isn't going past the rhino, it's clearly walking over it.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Flipsiders wrote:
The most baffling part is the implication that while the Stalker apparently moves "over" other models, other models would not go "over" each other if you tried to move, say, a predator past a tactical squad.

You are going to be lifting the model over the other models either way, correct?
No, you slide them along the ground.

That way you can tell if your base gets within 1 inch of an enemy. If you get too close, you have to stay away from that 1 inch bubble.

With the Triarch Stalker it is the same, the parts that touch the ground are slid along the ground (or as close as possible to it) so you never move over another model, as you never come within 1 inch of another model's base.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 Flipsiders wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
And we're there immediately. Fantastic. Great work team.


I also cannot believe this is a discussion. The most baffling part is the implication that while the Stalker apparently moves "over" other models, other models would not go "over" each other if you tried to move, say, a predator past a tactical squad.

You are going to be lifting the model over the other models either way, correct? Do most 40k players physically drag their models' bases across the table whenever they move them? If I pick up my predator and carry it to the end of its move, over the tactical squad, can I just count it as going over? What if it's a Knight? Those have big legs.

If I want to end my chaos lord's movement on top of a rhino, can I do it under these rules? After all, the chaos lord isn't going past the rhino, it's clearly walking over it.

How do you check whether you are moving within engagement range if you just teleport your models from where they start to where they end up? Do you use wires to hang your Chaos Lord from the ceiling such that he is not touching the Rhino like the Triarch Stalker?
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Les Etats Unis

 DeathReaper wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
The most baffling part is the implication that while the Stalker apparently moves "over" other models, other models would not go "over" each other if you tried to move, say, a predator past a tactical squad.

You are going to be lifting the model over the other models either way, correct?
No, you slide them along the ground.

That way you can tell if your base gets within 1 inch of an enemy. If you get too close, you have to stay away from that 1 inch bubble.

With the Triarch Stalker it is the same, the parts that touch the ground are slid along the ground (or as close as possible to it) so you never move over another model, as you never come within 1 inch of another model's base.



What about the last question, then? As JohnnyHell quoted,

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Movement Phase, 1. Move Units: "…no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models…"


If I put a character (say, again, a chaos lord) on top of an enemy rhino, I am clearly not moving its base across the base of the rhino; I'm going above it. Maybe I can't end my movement on the rhino, but as long as I measure it like I'm traversing vertically, I should be able to walk over it if I'm going above, right? What if the rhino was conveniently ramp-shaped?

The answer is, of course, "no," since "above" and "across" both mean the same thing in this context. The stalker's hull is (with some concave bits) a radius formed by the tips of its claws, and if something intersects its radius, it's gone too close to the model.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Honestly, at this point that statement about treating irregularly shaped pieces of terrain as having a base determined by drawing imaginary lines around its edges should really apply to irregularly shaped models without bases that touch (or come near to touching) the table at multiple points.

   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 solkan wrote:
Honestly, at this point that statement about treating irregularly shaped pieces of terrain as having a base determined by drawing imaginary lines around its edges should really apply to irregularly shaped models without bases that touch (or come near to touching) the table at multiple points.


I think GW knows it's a can of worms, why else give the Dunecrawler a base?

@flipsiders, 9th is a permissive ruleset, you need permission to move vertically, which you only get when you are moving over terrain, not moving over a Rhino. Now answer whether moving under is moving across. Models with fly can move across anyway so it doesn't matter for them, so then you have to answer whether standing under a Triarch Stalker's leg counts as standing on top of it. Is my Triarch Stalker unable to fall back if a model moves under it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 10:49:14


 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

 vict0988 wrote:
I think GW knows it's a can of worms, why else give the Dunecrawler a base?
Yes, and they are 'fixing' some of them - the Soul Grinder and Defiler now come with 160mm round bases, for example.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Nice to see there’s more sense than nonsense in the thread! My faith is restored a little.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Flipsiders wrote:

If I put a character (say, again, a chaos lord) on top of an enemy rhino
You can not put models so that they rest on other models (friendly or enemy), so the rest of your statement is moot.


 Flipsiders wrote:
The stalker's hull is (with some concave bits) a radius formed by the tips of its claws, and if something intersects its radius, it's gone too close to the model.
Citation needed, as I cant find this anywhere in the rulebook.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 13:12:17


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

So you’re splitting hairs between “on top of” and “above”. How, exactly?

Also how are you squaring your take with the Rulebook FAQ that even states as a bullet point “Models cannot end a move on top of another model.”

Oh wait, it’s not on top of its above it, sure sure

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 JohnnyHell wrote:
So you’re splitting hairs between “on top of” and “above”. How, exactly?

Also how are you squaring your take with the Rulebook FAQ that even states as a bullet point “Models cannot end a move on top of another model.”

Oh wait, it’s not on top of its above it, sure sure

If one book lies on top of another the top book is on top of the bottom book. If one book is on the bottom shelf of a cabinet and a second book is on the top shelf of the same cabinet, then neither book is on top of the other. If you move the top book back and forth on the top shelf it is not moving across the book on the bottom shelf and if you move the book on the bottom shelf back and forth it is not moving across the book on the top shelf.

Neither of you have answered whether moving under something counts as moving across and whether a model that is under another model is on top of that model. I think it is a silly interpretation of the rules where you can move a model under my model and prevent me from moving again and you're going to work really hard to define something moving under as moving across or something that ends it move under something to have ended its move on top of since on top and below of are opposites.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 14:07:35


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




So when a plane passes overhead , has it gone ABIVE you or was it on top of you?
Johnny, you're just wrong on this. The contextual meaning of the two words is pretty damn obvious and different.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Wait, did we shift goal posts here? I thought it was wether or not you can end a move underneath a unit. Not weather you can move directly under/through it. It's pretty clear. If you are not allowed to do it for knights and Titans, you are not allowed to do it for other, smaller models. Titanic units can move "through" other units, and aircraft can as well, but it cannot end it's move ontop of another unit. This includes the hull, which for units without a proper base size, Thunder hawks, Corvus Blackstars, Ares, etc. you have to count the Hull as the base. That was the FAQ ruling. As the base is three dimensional, it means from the hull to the table is occupied. Cannot end move inside this space.
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, did we shift goal posts here? I thought it was wether or not you can end a move underneath a unit. Not weather you can move directly under/through it. It's pretty clear. If you are not allowed to do it for knights and Titans, you are not allowed to do it for other, smaller models. Titanic units can move "through" other units, and aircraft can as well, but it cannot end it's move ontop of another unit. This includes the hull, which for units without a proper base size, Thunder hawks, Corvus Blackstars, Ares, etc. you have to count the Hull as the base. That was the FAQ ruling. As the base is three dimensional, it means from the hull to the table is occupied. Cannot end move inside this space.

Knights have a base, they do not have a hull. Who is moving the goal post? What FAQ ruling are you referencing? The one where no part of a model or base can be outside the battlefield? Not exactly relevant. I have never seen any ruling saying that everything from hull to table is occupied.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 16:38:58


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 vict0988 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, did we shift goal posts here? I thought it was wether or not you can end a move underneath a unit. Not weather you can move directly under/through it. It's pretty clear. If you are not allowed to do it for knights and Titans, you are not allowed to do it for other, smaller models. Titanic units can move "through" other units, and aircraft can as well, but it cannot end it's move ontop of another unit. This includes the hull, which for units without a proper base size, Thunder hawks, Corvus Blackstars, Ares, etc. you have to count the Hull as the base. That was the FAQ ruling. As the base is three dimensional, it means from the hull to the table is occupied. Cannot end move inside this space.

Knights have a base. Who is moving the goal post? What FAQ ruling are you referencing?


The point is if a model with a base cannot sit atop another model, neither can one without a base, because there is no special permission given to do so.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
 
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