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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





My buddy played with the leaked rules for Leagues of Votaan using Age of Sigmar models to proxy the various models. Nothing in the army really stood out as "broken" except one: The Hekaton Land Fortress. It's massively undercosted for what it is.

It has a 2+ save, toughness 8, ignores one point of ap, 16 wounds, and you can't re-roll wound rolls or damage against it. It has the equivalent of 4 heavy bolters, with +1 str and +1 ap, and the magna gun which does like 8-12 damage and ignores invulns. With a character, you can heal 4 wounds a turn and make it hits on 2s. It also works really well with judgement tokens because it makes it auto-wound on a 4+ with 3 tokens (Which I found were realllly easy to deal out) and the auto-wound is a 6 which makes the damage on the gun spill over and kill multiple models. He was reliably killing 3-5 terminators per turn with each land fortress, which he took 3 of.

At 230 points, it's pointed like a Leman Russ Tank Commander, but it's just way better: It's tougher, and it hits way harder. Even he agreed the thing was massively undercosted for what it did.

Edit: They're also transports, so you can make a Pentagon Wars joke about them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/07 03:15:08


 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Well every codex has it's op undercosted unit.

Though it's not tank commander priced being almost 33% as pricey.

But yeah gw army has op unit. Sun is hot.

2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Spoiler:
Cj4594 wrote:
My buddy played with the leaked rules for Leagues of Votaan using Age of Sigmar models to proxy the various models. Nothing in the army really stood out as "broken" except one: The Hekaton Land Fortress. It's massively undercosted for what it is.

It has a 2+ save, toughness 8, ignores one point of ap, 16 wounds, and you can't re-roll wound rolls or damage against it. It has the equivalent of 4 heavy bolters, with +1 str and +1 ap, and the magna gun which does like 8-12 damage and ignores invulns. With a character, you can heal 4 wounds a turn and make it hits on 2s. It also works really well with judgement tokens because it makes it auto-wound on a 4+ with 3 tokens (Which I found were realllly easy to deal out) and the auto-wound is a 6 which makes the damage on the gun spill over and kill multiple models. He was reliably killing 3-5 terminators per turn with each land fortress, which he took 3 of.

At 230 points, it's pointed like a Leman Russ Tank Commander, but it's just way better: It's tougher, and it hits way harder. Even he agreed the thing was massively undercosted for what it did.

Edit: They're also transports, so you can make a Pentagon Wars joke about them.


So.... this is a sales pitch for the model?

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






I'm sure that the big centrepiece model being OP is just a Wraithknight. Coincidence! I meant to type coincidence. Weird typo there...
   
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San Jose, CA

So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?
   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Tiberias wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?


With four Lascannon shots?

Yeah?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

Not at all quote mined. 
   
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?


With four Lascannon shots?

Yeah?


Yup, sound a bout right.

A landraider isn't just 230 though.

Neither are the Monolith or a Morkanaut, by the way.

[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.
This is literally all GW has ever writte on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Jidmah wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?


With four Lascannon shots?

Yeah?


Yup, sound a bout right.

A landraider isn't just 230 though.

Neither are the Monolith or a Morkanaut, by the way.


And most people are asking for it to be cheaper than it is now, so 230pts wounds far to me for a Land Raider.

   
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Hamburg

Is it really a problem model?
Codex creeping is a natural phenomenon so that such units pop up not unexpectedly.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Amishprn86 wrote:
And most people are asking for it to be cheaper than it is now, so 230pts wounds far to me for a Land Raider.


Depends on whether we are talking about the CSM variant or an of the previous ones IMO. And it's not like the fortress doesn't have a ton of rules stacked on top of it that the LR doesn't get.

[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.
This is literally all GW has ever writte on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Jidmah wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
And most people are asking for it to be cheaper than it is now, so 230pts wounds far to me for a Land Raider.


Depends on whether we are talking about the CSM variant or an of the previous ones IMO. And it's not like the fortress doesn't have a ton of rules stacked on top of it that the LR doesn't get.


Well Loyalist for now, also does the Land Raider not have a stack tone of rules too? It still has AoC, BD, and Docs, still has the ability of a Tech marine to heal 3, etc.... it just needs to be cheaper, something like 220pts is what I would value it at. The Fortress I'd say is a little under costed (15-20pts) but the Land Raider is massively over costed (imo by 40-45pts over costed).

What the actual issue is Beam only needs to roll to wound additional targets instead of needing to hit and wound. With the ability to almost auto hit 1 Fortress, and re-rolls the other, you can auto wound an additional 3-4 targets.

PS, also it is still too early to tell but it really feels like you can spread Judgement tokens a bit too easily and maybe 1 token per turn fall off might be a good balance too. Because honestly its already a low model/wound count army and going up points would hurt them in the bad way of balancing things. If anything their troops needs to go down, judgement and beam changes. The more I see them, test them, see them tested, etc..., the more you just take 2 Patrols, or a Patrol and specialist detachment (Outrider or Spearhead) and ignore the troops completely, as they can gain CP easily too, so starting with -2CP isn't a bad thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/07 11:58:41


   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Well, the DG landraider has... *checks rules* AoC and contagions.

No re-rolls is also not be underestimated, against armies relying on character auras or "re-roll one hit or wound roll" army traits, this is a massive boost in survivability, and it's not even a limited range thing as it is for Mortarion.

I'm also absolutely not judging the fortress right now - I need more data or see it in action myself first, it's much too soo for that.
I'm just saying that other units in the same weight class should cost the same as the fortress, no matter whether it goes up, the others go down, or they meet somewhere in the middle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/07 12:03:33


[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.
This is literally all GW has ever writte on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Jidmah wrote:
Well, the DG landraider has... *checks rules* AoC and contagions.

No re-rolls is also not be underestimated, against armies relying on character auras or "re-roll one hit or wound roll" army traits, this is a massive boost in survivability, and it's not even a limited range thing as it is for Mortarion.

I'm also absolutely not judging the fortress right now - I need more data or see it in action myself first, it's much too soo for that.
I'm just saying that other units in the same weight class should cost the same as the fortress, no matter whether it goes up, the others go down, or they meet somewhere in the middle.


Honestly, its the Forge Master (Whatever its called its a WLT for the Iron-master, aka Techmarine equal) making it good. Heal 4 per turn and once a game to stop 1 damage roll (aka a Melta, Pcannon, Lance, Hammerhead) is why its hard to kill, not really the +/AoC/no rrw's, without the Forge-master it dies just as fast as a Land Raider. But for 105pts for basically doubling it health/toughness, its literally equal to kill 2 for 1 to die.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/07 12:23:55


   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Most codexes have that one go-to unit which is an auto take pretty much.

I am sure if it proves to be problematic the nerf bat will hit it.

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




Well that depends on the faction and how lucky it is. Some armies vide orks had their stuff nerfed hard, while others like lets say all the good GK options were not touched at all or even made better.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?


With four Lascannon shots?

Yeah?


Er, 4 lascannon shots barely kills 1 exposed terminator, let alone 3
   
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Upstate, New York

Twilight Pathways wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?


With four Lascannon shots?

Yeah?


Er, 4 lascannon shots barely kills 1 exposed terminator, let alone 3


Don’t forget the HBs and pintle guns. Which probably doesn’t impact the rounding errors.

As we are discussing what land raiders should be like, i’d like to think in an ideal world they would come closer to putting down 3 terminators a round then they are now. The firepower put out by a LR should be feared. Unfortunately, it’s not.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?


With four Lascannon shots?

Yeah?

Four Lascannon shots, two Multimelta shots, six Heavy Bolter shots, and if you're a true gangsta, an HK Missile and a Storm Bolter.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Karol wrote:
Well that depends on the faction and how lucky it is. Some armies vide orks had their stuff nerfed hard, while others like lets say all the good GK options were not touched at all or even made better.


Most ork nerfs were reverted when GW fixed the problem (indirect fire, planes) instead of the symptom though.

[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.
This is literally all GW has ever writte on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?


With four Lascannon shots?

Yeah?


Yup, sound a bout right.

A landraider isn't just 230 though.

Neither are the Monolith or a Morkanaut, by the way.


And most people are asking for it to be cheaper than it is now, so 230pts wounds far to me for a Land Raider.

Pretty much this. It sounds like this thing is a cheaper, better land raider. But land raiders aren't super popular right now (afaik), so there's probably room for improvement before we start wandering into "OP" territory. Maybe it ends up being too good, but I'm not worried just yet. Plus, we're definitely still in that phase where everyone is nervous about the new thing. I remember that thread from a while back about how the new psychic ork vehicle was going to be absurdly over the top, and to my admittedly limited knowledge, those fears didn't really pan out.

Worst case scenario, the new vehicle is too gnarly to enjoy playing against, and I'll just politely turn down games against it.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Twilight Pathways wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
So it's a LR as it's supposed to be???


A land raider is supposed to kill 3 terminators a turn?


With four Lascannon shots?

Yeah?


Er, 4 lascannon shots barely kills 1 exposed terminator, let alone 3


Note the word "supposed".

His point being it should but doesn't now. Aka land fortress is what land raider should be. Not that land raider is what land fortress to be.

Aka buff land raider, don't nerf land fortress

2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




3x 230 = 690 points of vehicles (plus buff characters) to kill maybe 350 points of Terminators doesn't sound great.

It shouldn't take any army in the game more then 350 points of their army to kill an opponents 350 points of models if they sit in the open.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Sunny Side Up wrote:
It shouldn't take any army in the game more then 350 points of their army to kill an opponents 350 points of models if they sit in the open.

This mentality is the problem with lethality of the game, though. Being able to take out units with a 100% efficiency on average is bad.

   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Sunny Side Up wrote:
3x 230 = 690 points of vehicles (plus buff characters) to kill maybe 350 points of Terminators doesn't sound great.

It shouldn't take any army in the game more then 350 points of their army to kill an opponents 350 points of models if they sit in the open.


Yes it should. Actually it should be 3xpoints to one shot.

The "unit must wipe out equal points in one shot" is precisely what leads to alpha striking being so effective, 1-2 turn games and lethality being too high.

If unit can reliably wipe out more than 1/3 of it's points in one go it's too good.

Taking out 100% of it's points in one go is ridiculous. That's basically 2k army one shots enemy army in one go. That's too good. Way too good. Games are then decided by who gets to alpha strike first.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/08 08:06:39


2022 painted/bought: 681/867 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Sunny Side Up wrote:
3x 230 = 690 points of vehicles (plus buff characters) to kill maybe 350 points of Terminators doesn't sound great.

It shouldn't take any army in the game more then 350 points of their army to kill an opponents 350 points of models if they sit in the open.


Exactly what's trying to kill what needs to be factored in, not just how many pts it all is.
Just because the pts are equal doesn't mean the units involved are.
For ex; I could throw 4 full squads of grots (360pts), with or without Waagh benefits, at 350 pts of termies & I won't be at all surprised when they fail....
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sunny Side Up wrote:
3x 230 = 690 points of vehicles (plus buff characters) to kill maybe 350 points of Terminators doesn't sound great.

It shouldn't take any army in the game more then 350 points of their army to kill an opponents 350 points of models if they sit in the open.

I agree, but not in one single round of shooting. That's far too lethal. Under ideal conditions I'd expect units to earn their points back in 2-3 turns, longer if their opponent does something sensible like using cover.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




The 100% points back in a single turn on avarge is true for very few armies. And with how turn structure w40k has, losing 350pts of specific units may mean you are not just playing the game 1650 vs 2000, but also may now lack the units to kill those 690pts of units that kill 350pts per turn. which means phase 2 may end with a 2000-1900pts vs 1300 pts and even fewer units that can try to counter the 690pts of super efficient unit.

But of course when the units are cheaper then 230pts per units, like a 80pts void weaver, it is much worse.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Yes the tank is over powered lethality is already way to high.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




But that is why you have / had so many problems with pre-nerf Custodes or pre-Nerf Bodyguard or non-Reroll Knights or Leviathan Tyranid bricks now maybe buffed up Chaos Terminator units sitting on an objective against some armies and simply not caring as the opponent cannot kill it.

That is an infinitely worse problem then any amount of overtuned lethality as 7th Ed. Deathstars or Broviathan, etc.. have shown, as that immediately and competely removes any tactics, interaction and strategy from the game, allowing players to abandon all subtlty and simply score points without the opponent being able to mathematically stop them.

For the game to fundamentally work, the toughest unit with the best buffs in the game must aboslutetly, 100% die to the same amount of points from the weakest, least efficient army in the game if it is in the opponent on some objective. Otherwise the basic principles of the game don't work.
   
 
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