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How do these interact with each other ? Lets say a BT gets shot with a damage 12 gun, and fails its daemonic save.

1. Do you roll 12 or 8 dice for the 5+ FNP ?

2. Lets say he loses 6 wounds, so there are two left until the wound cap. He now gets hit again with a damage 12 gun, and fails his save again. Does he roll 12 or 2 dice for the 5+ FNP ? Which comes first, wound cap, or FNP ?

Brazen Hide
Each time this WARLORD would lose a wound, roll one D6: on a 5+, that wound is not lost.

Indomitable Onslaught
This model cannot lose more than 8 wounds in the same phase. Any wounds that would be lost after that point are not lost.

Roll all of the dice for damage delt (so 12 in this example). If the failed FNP's would exceed the 8-wound cap in this phase then just discard the excess.

I think you refer to question 1. What about question 2 ? And why FNP first, then cap, not the other way around ?

 p5freak wrote:
why FNP first, then cap, not the other way around ?

Because they are not lost wounds until the FNP's are rolled.

Remeber that Indomitable Onslaught says "This model cannot lose more than 8 wounds in the same phase." rolling FNP stops you from losing a wound, so it needs to be taken first.


Question #1: You roll 12 dice for the 5+ FNP (any that actually get through are limited to 8 wounds lost).

Question #2: He rolls 12 dice for the 5+ FNP (any that actually get through are limited to 8 wounds lost).

Same for question 2, you roll 12 dice for the 5+ FPN. Indomitable Onslaught doesn't change the damage characteristic of the weapon.

BRB 5. Inflict Damage wrote:The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack. A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers. If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0 or less, it is destroyed and removed from play. If a model loses several wounds from an attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect.

The reason is simple once you consider the above quote. Brazen Hide occurs when you would lose a wound and you roll to negate it. The key word being "would", as in hasn't yet happened. If you do lose the wound (ie, fail the roll), then that's where Indomitable Onslaught kicks in and puts a hard limit on how much you can lose. Basically, in terms of timing Brazen Hide is triggered before Indomitable Onslaught.

Agreed. You roll your FNPs first and only once you've actually taken your 8 wounds, after those rolls, does the wound cap kick in because they aren't lost until you've failed those FNP rolls.

 p5freak wrote:
I think you refer to question 1. What about question 2 ? And why FNP first, then cap, not the other way around ?

Howabout because you allocate damage one at a time?

If you allocate 8 wounds first you have given up chance to roll FNP.

You roll them together for sake of speed but by rules they are one at a time.

Ok, so lets see if i understand correctly.

BT suffers 12 damage. I roll FNP, one dice at a time, because a model loses a wound for each point of damage it suffers. If i fail the first 8 dice rolls i dont get to roll any more dice, because the 8 wound cap has been reached. So i dont get to roll 12 dice. Rolling 12 dice at once would increase my chance of rolling more 5s.

Lets say i lost 6 wounds, now i get hit again with 12 damage. Again, i roll FNP, one dice at a time, if i fail two i have reached the 8 wound cap, and dont have to roll any more dice. Again, i dont get to roll 12 dice. Rolling 12 dice at once would increase my chance of rolling more 5s.

I don't think the total number rolled actually matters, does it? My maths is a bit rusty on this but what matters is the number you failed, so rolling "more" dice doesn't matter. If you roll 12 dice at once and the "first" 8 fail, it doesn't matter what the subsequent results are.

Personally, I'd just roll all the dice at once. You could, I suppose, roll them in batches up to the number of wounds you still have left to reach your cap.

You mean it doesnt really matter if i roll 2 or 12 dice, the chance of getting two 5s is the same ?

No. I mean if you've taken 12 total damage, rolling the dice one at a time or all together won't affect the final outcome of the number of wounds you lose.

Assume you roll 12 dice, one at a time, and the first 8 all fail, while the next 4 have 3 passes and 1 fail. What's the difference if you roll all 12 at once? You still fail 9, but only take 8 because of the cap. Similarly, if you pass more than 4, the order doesn't matter as the end result is the same.

Slipspace has it perfectly correct. It doesn't matter if you roll the dice one at a time or all at once. The model can only lose 8 Wounds in the phase, so the final result compared to how many wounds you have lost is the only thing that matters.

Besides, even if you have already lost 8 Wounds in the phase, you still technically need to roll because you don't check the Wound Cap until you are are actually going to lose a Wound, which the FNP would prevent before the Wound Cap is checked.

You keep following the normal rules until 8W have been suffered. Then you stop. Simples.

Basically this. No idea why it's being made complicated.

You either roll 12 dice together for speed of pointlessly roll up to 12 one at a time.

100% that you roll all of the dice and then stop when you get to 8 wounds. A weapon doing 12 wounds should be more likely to get 8 through than one doing 8 wounds.

In your 2 vs 12 example, what if the first two were a 5+? Then you have 10 more damage and haven't hit your cap, so you roll 2 more. One passes, so you still have 1 wound left and 8 more damage, so you roll 1 more, and repeat until the damage has either hit the wound cap for the phase or has been saved. Mathematically, it remains the same as rolling all 12 and allowing up to the wound cap through, and then discarding the rest.

This is not an abusable combination to reduce 12 damage to 2 and then try to save them.