Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It is often mentioned that Krieg is a world that carries out illicit reproductive techniques ("vitae wombs") that are not sanctioned by the Adeptus Mechanicus, particularly its Biologis branch.

I posit that this is not the case. It is clear that such practices are uncomfortable and that a faction within the Mechanicus views them as "abhorrent" and possibly heretical. However, vat-growth techniques are so widespread that they must be a well-tolerated and legal technology. Presumably the faction within the Biologis that opposes them is a minority without the power to suppress the practices.

The relevant quote from the Krieg lore:

Imperial Armour Volume 5, page 86 wrote:But others such as the enforced use of "Vitae-Womb" birthing techniques are little known outside of the Adeptus Biologis and are seen as dangerous and abhorrent by many Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis.

Clearly only a proportion of the Biologis are opposed to this.

We know that House Goliath on Necromunda was created to be a slave caste via vat-growth, and the majority of its members remain vat-born. Necromunda clearly has a lot of experience and knowledge with these technologies.

Other slaves are commonly vat-grown- servitors are often purpose-grown bodies that were always destined to be servitors. It is likely that the majority are vat-grown from the except below, although this will vary based on local practices and laws:

Codex: Astra Militarum (6th edition), page 35 wrote:These lobotomised slaves are often vat-grown, though some were vicious criminals or heretics prior to their forced conversion.

Likewise, cherubim are built from small vat-grown bodies.

We also see vat-growth probably being used for the Imperium's finest:

Index: Astartes, page 6 wrote:A new Chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test-slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious, they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on.

It does not explicitly state the test-slaves are vat-born, but they pure, are unable to move when conscious, and remain in the vat their entire lives, strongly suggesting they are purpose grown for the task of replicating geneseed.

I think such techniques are used across Imperial society and are commonplace on advanced worlds. They can only be tech-heresy to a conservative minority.

Well, The Imperium being The Imperium, it could be Cloning Tech A is fine, Cloning Tech B is forbidden - for reasons nobody has bothered to write down.

I think it’s certainly more widespread than folk think. I mean, even with its regression and stagnation The Imperium is leaps and bounds in advance of modern tech - and whilst I’m sure someone not pretty much ignorant in the matter can correct, right now we could clone a human, as it’s more an argument of ethics?

We’ve certainly done a Sheep, and I know there’s a wacky cult claiming, but refusing to prove, they’ve done it.

We can also look to the Leagues, who are all artificially created in a process broadly similar, but not actually, cloning.

Hypocrisy thy name is the Imperium of Man.
Besides the obvious, it could be that Vitae Wombs are not "normal" Vat-birthing machines. Krieg was able to rapidly produce many Regiments for the Guard in a short span after the planets devastating nuclear war after all. It could well be that the Vitae Wombs conduct accelerated growth cycles that while still produce normal humans they are similar to Star Wars Clone Troopers in that they are physically and mentally adult but are technically only 8-10 years old.
As for Necromunda, what the outsiders don't know doesn't hurt them. I mean if the Mechanicus had any sort of real knowledge of what was happening on Necromunda it would sieze the Van Saar STC, enslave the populace to scour the Ash Wastes for Archeotech and call the Inquisition on the Delaque for actively creating more Psykers. The ruling powers keep the weirdness of Necromunda under wraps as long as the various Houses and Gangs don't draw too much attention from the Arbites or Imperial Fists and make said ruling powers a butt load of cash in the process.

Don't forget there's also lore about Tech-priests cloning themselves, and there were entire cloned regiments of the Imperiums greatest heroes. Name escapes me, but I remember in Last Chancers there was a female clone of Macharius who joined them as she was the last clone left.

Another thought occurs.

It may be down to intent of usage for the clones.

Servitors don’t matter, because they’re going to be lobotomised and most likely mono-tasked.

House Goliath, at least originally, were for a specific purpose. That being overly strong and resilient Slave labour for some of the hardest tasks. That they were short lived and sterile was by design (but uh…life finds a way).

Krieg? Well…..strictly speaking i suspect Grunt Infantry thrown into their remorseless meat grinder style of warfare is probably fine. They lack agency and independence afforded to others. But, if said Clones also make up their Command echelons? Perhaps that level of authority is cause for concern in certain circles.

This may explain why, to the best of my knowledge, Astartes Chapters don’t make use of cloning, despite the argument “but you could recruit to order, knowing the candidate is going to survive” being a compelling one. Or at least not one completely detached from reality.

The other concern could be “but what if the bloodline you’re cloning form is prone to psychic mutation”. After all, accidents happen, and if you’re cloning on the scale of Krieg, just one mutation in the stock could add up to a world or even sector ending problem.

Jarms48 wrote:
Don't forget there's also lore about Tech-priests cloning themselves

Yep - One of the Tech-priests in the "Forges of Mars" series has a clone 'daughter' and no-one is bothered by it.

Jarms48 wrote:Don't forget there's also lore about Tech-priests cloning themselves, and there were entire cloned regiments of the Imperiums greatest heroes. Name escapes me, but I remember in Last Chancers there was a female clone of Macharius who joined them as she was the last clone left.

The Afriel Strain - reportedly followed by strange occurences and very bad luck, they usually die early deaths on the battlefield or in freak accidents.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Another thought occurs.

It may be down to intent of usage for the clones.

Servitors don’t matter, because they’re going to be lobotomised and most likely mono-tasked.

House Goliath, at least originally, were for a specific purpose. That being overly strong and resilient Slave labour for some of the hardest tasks. That they were short lived and sterile was by design (but uh…life finds a way).

Krieg? Well…..strictly speaking i suspect Grunt Infantry thrown into their remorseless meat grinder style of warfare is probably fine. They lack agency and independence afforded to others. But, if said Clones also make up their Command echelons? Perhaps that level of authority is cause for concern in certain circles.

This may explain why, to the best of my knowledge, Astartes Chapters don’t make use of cloning, despite the argument “but you could recruit to order, knowing the candidate is going to survive” being a compelling one. Or at least not one completely detached from reality.

The other concern could be “but what if the bloodline you’re cloning form is prone to psychic mutation”. After all, accidents happen, and if you’re cloning on the scale of Krieg, just one mutation in the stock could add up to a world or even sector ending problem.

It might be that the way you generate your embryos plays a role - you're good to go as long as you generate 'natural' embryos by mixing semen and eggs and then implanting them in vats, but cloning identical replicas by some other means is frowned upon, or something like that. AFAIK the issue with the Kriegsmen is that they're repeated copies of the same template, not that they're vat-grown. And one theory for the Afriel's devastatingly bad luck is that the repeated cloning of the heroes their templates are based on does weird stuff with their soul-echoes in the warp. Come to think of it, one organisation that does capital C identical cloning is the Culexus Temple, which of course is tied to abhorrent warp-meddling on a fundamental level.

As Gert said, good ol’ Imperial (and Mechanicus) Hypocricy.

Edit: Ninja'd

That’s more Genhancement than cloning though. Well. Not really Genhancement as it doesn’t mention anything being added.

But certainly closer to the Cloneskein method of the Leagues than “Bob is pretty good in a scrap. Dear Mr Magos Biologis, please make 23,000 Bobs, there’s a good chap, love and kisses Regimental Command” cloning.

Krieg is explicitly noted as practicing eugenics though. I don't think they use clones, it seems more like they use IVF + artificial wombs (that probably accelerate the process, or otherwise make it more efficient than just a natural womb).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thought- the Index Astartes lore on geneseed states that a single geneseed can be propagated into 1000 in just 55 years. Now, I can't be bothered to do the maths properly, but if both progenoids matured in 5 years, it would take 50 years, if both took ten years it would take 100 years. 55 years for 5 and 10 years respectively seems a bit quick.

I wonder if geneseed propagation is quicker in optimal lab conditions? Vat-grown test-slaves could be a method that some Chapters use to replenish geneseed losses and maintain high attrition rates. Or maybe GW did the maths wrong.

 Haighus wrote:


I wonder if geneseed propagation is quicker in optimal lab conditions? Vat-grown test-slaves could be a method that some Chapters use to replenish geneseed losses and maintain high attrition rates. Or maybe GW did the maths wrong.

Marines 'in the wild' leave the second gland in for as long as possible because it gets better results the longer it stays in, and seems to pick up some warp- or soul-related mojo from the bearer, so that a gene-child sired by a great hero of the chapter can literally inherit some of his heroism. Of course, that makes no difference in a lab because the opportunities for crazy heroics are somewhat limited if all you do is float around in a vat all day, so i guess both implants come out as soon as they reach the minimum viabilty threshold in this case.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Haighus wrote:


I wonder if geneseed propagation is quicker in optimal lab conditions? Vat-grown test-slaves could be a method that some Chapters use to replenish geneseed losses and maintain high attrition rates. Or maybe GW did the maths wrong.

Marines 'in the wild' leave the second gland in for as long as possible because it gets better results the longer it stays in, and seems to pick up some warp- or soul-related mojo from the bearer, so that a gene-child sired by a great hero of the chapter can literally inherit some of his heroism. Of course, that makes no difference in a lab because the opportunities for crazy heroics are somewhat limited if all you do is float around in a vat all day, so i guess both implants come out as soon as they reach the minimum viabilty threshold in this case.

Well, they believe it gets better. I don't think there is any confirmation of that. Although superstitions being real is increasingly true in 40k (everything has to be warp-touched these days, rather than backwards fethwits getting in their own way), so who knows.

I suspect that’s just one of those things that’s gonna vary quite wildly, depending on the purity of the Geneseed, suitability of the recipient, general environment etc.

As ever, it seems entirely possible Geneseed can be cloned, being genetic material, but the gubbins and authority to do so are few and far between?

House Goliath uses Vat growing tech as well as Gene crafting and are likely the most current version of the concept of Thunder warriors in the universe.

Been a while since I read their fluff but I am vaguely remembering that the Imperium is aware of them and watching them with interest as a possible new abhuman strain due to their constant evolution and ability to re produce, becoming more stable with each generation.

Fact check me on that last part though.

 Formosa wrote:
House Goliath uses Vat growing tech as well as Gene crafting and are likely the most current version of the concept of Thunder warriors in the universe.

Been a while since I read their fluff but I am vaguely remembering that the Imperium is aware of them and watching them with interest as a possible new abhuman strain due to their constant evolution and ability to re produce, becoming more stable with each generation.

Fact check me on that last part though.

I’ll need to check as well, but if memory serves it’s still an internal Necromunda thing, with the Noble Houses thinking they might make a pretty tithe?

Oh. Bother. I’ll need to go and read my Necromunda books. Again.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
House Goliath uses Vat growing tech as well as Gene crafting and are likely the most current version of the concept of Thunder warriors in the universe.

Been a while since I read their fluff but I am vaguely remembering that the Imperium is aware of them and watching them with interest as a possible new abhuman strain due to their constant evolution and ability to re produce, becoming more stable with each generation.

Fact check me on that last part though.

I’ll need to check as well, but if memory serves it’s still an internal Necromunda thing, with the Noble Houses thinking they might make a pretty tithe?

Oh. Bother. I’ll need to go and read my Necromunda books. Again.

Same, House of Chains is such a good lore book, second only to Shadows to me

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Krieg? Well…..strictly speaking i suspect Grunt Infantry thrown into their remorseless meat grinder style of warfare is probably fine. They lack agency and independence afforded to others. But, if said Clones also make up their Command echelons? Perhaps that level of authority is cause for concern in certain circles.

Not sure how far up Command you were thinking, but Dead Men Walking had a Krieg focus, and I'm pretty sure that Major/Colonel ranks were vat-born.

That’s what I’m suggesting.

We can look to Vat Born Goliath and Servitors not being a problem. But Krieg seem to cause upset. Command Level and not being a mere meat puppet is the obvious difference between?

I’m speculating here.

It might be because on the face of it, Goliath's are slaves.

The Krieg regiment are not, might ruffle feathers.

Just guessing.

I don't think Krieg causes an unusual amount of upset. A proportion of Biologis adepts find the practice abhorrent, not the institution as a whole. It is almost certain a different faction of the Biologis operates the Krieg reproduction program.

Loads of stuff is controversial to some faction within the Mechanicus. Cybernetica upset some, multiple Space Marine vehicles that have since been approved upset some. There are some hardcore fundamentalists following the Machine Cult. Nobody cares until they gather enough support to carry out a pogrom every so often.

Ain't Goliath an Underhiver gang and therefore beneath the notice of the higher stratas of the Imperium anyway? Their trade is by definition illegal, just nature of the underhive makes it impossible for the law to enforce their will.
By the warp the Van Saars have a working STC hidden away and you think the AdMech accepts that if they knew?
Also the vat slave thing -- in the 1st edition Compedium and the latter Index Astartes I (which is just from an old white dwarf article), the human test slaves are never said to be vat-grown, and this is apparently sanitized latter due to how bloody horrible it would be to just snatch people off their homes due to genetic compatibility with geneseeds.

 lcmiracle wrote:
Ain't Goliath an Underhiver gang and therefore beneath the notice of the higher stratas of the Imperium anyway? Their trade is by definition illegal, just nature of the underhive makes it impossible for the law to enforce their will.
By the warp the Van Saars have a working STC hidden away and you think the AdMech accepts that if they knew?
Also the vat slave thing -- in the 1st edition Compedium and the latter Index Astartes I (which is just from an old white dwarf article), the human test slaves are never said to be vat-grown, and this is apparently sanitized latter due to how bloody horrible it would be to just snatch people off their homes due to genetic compatibility with geneseeds.

Sort of. Yes and no.

In terms of legality, Necromunda neatly demonstrates that as long as a Planetary Governer can maintain order and meet their tithe? Nobody really gives a hoot. The Imperium is just too vast to be well policed in that way.

If memory serves, House Goliath were created at the behest of House Helmawr, as they had a need of a slave caste to do dangerous jobs. Exactly how houses Van Saar and Escher pulled it off was probably not too much of a worry, as it’s not a crime if nobody sees it. Yes House Van Saar almost certainly used stuff from their STC - but then owning a functional STC isn’t even remotely illegal. They keep it a secret as it’s the source of their wealth, prestige and power, and they know damned well the Mechanicus would claim dibs. For their part, the elixirs used by House Escher were almost certainly made from Things They’re Not Supposed To Have, but provided they didn’t incorporate Xenos DNA etc into the Goliaths? Again it’s probably not too much of a concern.