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Made in pl
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




I've always had a soft spot for my fridge shaped walkers, Yet I've noticed they are off slightly in terms of actual implementation in the current edition.

My biggest issue with the Gorkanaut is that I still consider it too expensive for what you get out of it, and would mostly like it to be dropped in cost to perhaps 300 or 280 pts from its current 330 points.

The Morkanaut in my opinion should stay at its current cost but gain some capabilities. As it stands the Morkanaut is the only Big Mek unit to have BS 5+, it should be buffed to BS 4+ to reflect the pilots better than average skill. Second it is equipped with a pair of optional Eye weapons that have never shown up in the rules, either a single teleporta blasta or what resembles a Zapp Gun, as its described in the novella Iron Devil. As stands I've found the Morkanaut to be short on effective firepower since it was changed from a HS slot too a LOW. These alterations with few if any other changes could go a long way to making the two nauts viable. What do you guys think?
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






I think the key problems you've highlighted already, mainly being an issue that they are much too expensive and don't really bring much to the table, especially compared to the much more functional and cheaper Kill Rigs. They fundamentally just don't feel like super heavies. Frankly, I feel like they need a completely new datasheet (same with the Stompa). When Kill Tanks do a better job while being cheaper, you know you dun goofed.

I also think they should properly reflect the twin aspects of Gork and Mork more clearly, rather than one having an extra attack and the other having marginally shootier guns.

Assuming they are keeping them around the same price points, they need to have -1D built in, full stop. It makes no sense that a Trukk has more protection against chip damage than they do. Both should also have 10" movement base, especially since I believe most of our walkers should have higher base movement, and it makes it less crippling for our units when they start taking damage. Both could have one additional attack base too.

Morkanauts should be BS4+, 100% like you mentioned. I think giving it an Eye of Mork/Gork profile for the head would be cool and quite fitting. I would go even further and make it so they're an actual centerpiece support model for a Dred Mob style army, given the lack of buffs we have strat or unit wise since Meks don't do anything besides repair things for some reason. Give the Morkanaut a baseline aura of reroll one's to wound for WALKERZ units within 6" of it in the shooting phase. Make their KFF similar to the Wazbom Blastajet and rename it as a distinct KFF that just always gives a 5+ invuln save to all Ork units within 6" of it. Considering how much it costs, it should do that much and provide a lynchpin unit. It'll also partly make up for the fact you can't obscure it.

For the Gorkanaut, I think they should be WS2+ base, given that they're whole schtick is being the smashiest of the walkers and it makes it so taking damage doesn't terminally limit their damage output. Make it so that the Gorkanaut allows WALKERZ units within 6" of them to gain +1 to charge rolls or something like reroll 1's to hit in the combat phase.

I'm also wondering if there should be some sort of mechanic that allows them to actually use their transport capacity to a meaningful level, like if you get in combat with an enemy unit, you can disembark the unit inside and it counts as having charged that turn as well.

That's the current thoughts I have at the moment.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Disorganized Impressions from a non-ork player:

* Their statlines look about right. With 50% more wounds than a landraider (albeit with a worse save), they seem reasonably chonky, and their Movement, WS, and Strength are all what I would have guessed them to be looking at the model.

* From the outside looking in, making these guys M10" (as fast as drukhari beasts) and WS2+ would feel a bit weird. These things look husk, and the transport apron seems likely to bounce off of the ground with every step, plus they don't appear to be able to turn at the waist. I struggle to picture these things moving as fast as an eldar war walker or making a melee attack that isn't predictable and direct. If the degrading Movement and WS on the damage chart are a problem, that's fair enough, but I probably wouldn't compensate by starting it off with a weird amount of grace and speed.

* If the point of these things is to be the chonkiest mechs in their weight class, they look like they're probably about right but maybe a bit overpriced.

* Ramshackle on these things would probably be reasonable.

* I kind of want the Gorkanaught to be able to throw smaller walkers at the enemy, but maybe he's too petite for that. (Thinking of the imperial knigiht thunderfist gauntlets.)

* What's the issue with the KFF?


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in pl
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




 Grimskul wrote:
I think the key problems you've highlighted already, mainly being an issue that they are much too expensive and don't really bring much to the table, especially compared to the much more functional and cheaper Kill Rigs. They fundamentally just don't feel like super heavies. Frankly, I feel like they need a completely new datasheet (same with the Stompa). When Kill Tanks do a better job while being cheaper, you know you dun goofed.

I also think they should properly reflect the twin aspects of Gork and Mork more clearly, rather than one having an extra attack and the other having marginally shootier guns.

Assuming they are keeping them around the same price points, they need to have -1D built in, full stop. It makes no sense that a Trukk has more protection against chip damage than they do. Both should also have 10" movement base, especially since I believe most of our walkers should have higher base movement, and it makes it less crippling for our units when they start taking damage. Both could have one additional attack base too.

Morkanauts should be BS4+, 100% like you mentioned. I think giving it an Eye of Mork/Gork profile for the head would be cool and quite fitting. I would go even further and make it so they're an actual centerpiece support model for a Dred Mob style army, given the lack of buffs we have strat or unit wise since Meks don't do anything besides repair things for some reason. Give the Morkanaut a baseline aura of reroll one's to wound for WALKERZ units within 6" of it in the shooting phase. Make their KFF similar to the Wazbom Blastajet and rename it as a distinct KFF that just always gives a 5+ invuln save to all Ork units within 6" of it. Considering how much it costs, it should do that much and provide a lynchpin unit. It'll also partly make up for the fact you can't obscure it.

For the Gorkanaut, I think they should be WS2+ base, given that they're whole schtick is being the smashiest of the walkers and it makes it so taking damage doesn't terminally limit their damage output. Make it so that the Gorkanaut allows WALKERZ units within 6" of them to gain +1 to charge rolls or something like reroll 1's to hit in the combat phase.

I'm also wondering if there should be some sort of mechanic that allows them to actually use their transport capacity to a meaningful level, like if you get in combat with an enemy unit, you can disembark the unit inside and it counts as having charged that turn as well.

That's the current thoughts I have at the moment.



I agree with a lot of these points, I remember back in 7th Edition my Gork was stupidly hard to kill due to how many repair rolls I could stuff into it by cramming a bunch of Burna boyz with as many Meks and Spanna boyz as I could attach to them. (my meta at the time did not feature Grav or D weapons).

I like the idea of Gorkanauts enhancing the ability of other Walkerz to make it into Melee, perhaps have it reflect an increased aggression among Deff Dreads and Killa Kanz.

You have a good point on the KFF on the Morkanaut, its huge compared to ones on the Big Meks yet it seems to provide little additional benefit over them, beyond increased coverage. A 5++ for the Morkanaut itself at least would be a no brainer.

If we wanted, we could go down a similar route as the Land Raider Crusaders in Black Templars and have them prevent overwatch or perhaps impose a "Fight Last" on the unit they charge, the Gork on Infantry and the Mork on Vehicles/MCs if the big walker itself shoots them. Though that would also require a disembark after moving. Frankly it would help a lot of the various Heavy IFV esque units in this game, like the Land Raider series if they had a Disembarck after the vehicle moves rule to help them out in the role as transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyldhunt wrote:
Disorganized Impressions from a non-ork player:



* What's the issue with the KFF?


The issue with the KFF is that you drop 30 points to give the Morkanaut (and anything around it) a 6++, by and large I believe that the KFF should be returned to its old 5++ status across the board but at least on the Mork it personally deserves a strong Invuln than a 6++.

I can see your points regrading buffing its WS, and perhaps its movement, since we can pay 30 points right now and give them an 11 inch move, via a Kustom job. I personally find the Mork far more lackluster than the Gork particular as its out of line with other Big Mek units within the Codex, principally on its 5+ BS instead of the normal BS 4+ found on the rest of the Big Mek range. A slight buff to its shooting output via the implementation of its possible Eye weapons could also be a nice touch, either a short range teleporta weapon, akin to the larger one found on Big Meks wearing Mega Armor or a Zapp Gun for the other option.

The Gorkanaut primarily benefits from price cuts, or ways to get it into combat to use that big claw. Its fine mostly.

What does rub me the wrong way about these guys is that both as supposed to be small effigies of the Ork Gods yet neither interacts with the army in any way, they're supposed to idols to their gods yet they don't buff our awful morale, nor do they synergize with the rest of the Walkerz units like Deff Dreads, Mega Dreadz, or Killa Kanz which they are supposed to lead as heavy units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/25 23:11:53


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Speaking, again, as an ork outsider, I think I'd probably be fine with the Morkanaught having a 5++. Maybe even giving a 5++ to nearby vehicles (though giving it to non-vehicles might be a stretch given its size).

Here's a silly idea for that awkward transport capacity: let them transport deff dreads. Enemy has too much dakka for your smaller walker to safely cross the table? Stick 'im in your bigger walker until he's safely in krumpin' distance!

But more seriously, fiddling with points costs and maybe making the Morkanaut BS 4+ seems like a decent, simple way to help these two out. They *are* rather beefy, and that seems to be their main job. So just making them do that job a bit more cost-effectively might be all they need?

Question: I know they're meant to be llittle representations of Gork and Mork, but isn't that also supposed to be true of the Stompa? Does the Stompa have some sort of inspiration rule, and is it weird if a mek half the Stompa's size also has such a rule?


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in pl
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




 Wyldhunt wrote:
Speaking, again, as an ork outsider, I think I'd probably be fine with the Morkanaught having a 5++. Maybe even giving a 5++ to nearby vehicles (though giving it to non-vehicles might be a stretch given its size).

Here's a silly idea for that awkward transport capacity: let them transport deff dreads. Enemy has too much dakka for your smaller walker to safely cross the table? Stick 'im in your bigger walker until he's safely in krumpin' distance!

But more seriously, fiddling with points costs and maybe making the Morkanaut BS 4+ seems like a decent, simple way to help these two out. They *are* rather beefy, and that seems to be their main job. So just making them do that job a bit more cost-effectively might be all they need?

Question: I know they're meant to be llittle representations of Gork and Mork, but isn't that also supposed to be true of the Stompa? Does the Stompa have some sort of inspiration rule, and is it weird if a mek half the Stompa's size also has such a rule?


The Stompa has this rule "Waaagh! Effigy (Aura): While a friendly ORKS unit is within 6" of this model, each time a Morale test is taken for that unit, you can re-roll the result."

Personally I think that perhaps expanding on that rule would be the best way to conduct this sort of thing. Actually have super heavies interacting with there armies is a good thing in my book, I like that Guard can issue orders to Baneblades, that Techmarines can buff up Fellblades and things like that. Having the Ork Super heavy walkers have positive effects upon their army would be a fun mirror to Imperial style buffs for the super heavies coming from the army itself.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Wyldhunt wrote:
Disorganized Impressions from a non-ork player:

* Their statlines look about right. With 50% more wounds than a landraider (albeit with a worse save), they seem reasonably chonky, and their Movement, WS, and Strength are all what I would have guessed them to be looking at the model.


The rough statline is ok, the movement is terrible for these things and the fact remains that the Gorkanaut should have WS2 and the Mork BS4+.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
* From the outside looking in, making these guys M10" (as fast as drukhari beasts) and WS2+ would feel a bit weird. These things look husk, and the transport apron seems likely to bounce off of the ground with every step, plus they don't appear to be able to turn at the waist. I struggle to picture these things moving as fast as an eldar war walker or making a melee attack that isn't predictable and direct. If the degrading Movement and WS on the damage chart are a problem, that's fair enough, but I probably wouldn't compensate by starting it off with a weird amount of grace and speed.
No it wouldn't. They are the size of knights..they literally are the ork knight equivalents and how far does a Knight move? 10/8/6. So why do Ork versions have to be slower? especially since most ork vehicles prefer to be closer to the enemy rather than hanging out in the rear.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
* If the point of these things is to be the chonkiest mechs in their weight class, they look like they're probably about right but maybe a bit overpriced.
A bit overpriced? Lets put it to a contest. a Knight Errant is 430pts, 2 Morkanauts with KFF upgrades are 690pts. The morkanauts (assuming they are all in range) average 8.8dmg to the Knight, the Knight averages 8.5dmg with just its main gun.
The Morkanauts are better in CC...but for 260pts more they better be. And now finally remind me, are knight errants considered good?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
* Ramshackle on these things would probably be reasonable.
Ramshackle is all but useless in an edition where everyone is being forced to take S8+ weapons on a regular basis. The Last DA army that won literally didn't have any ranged weapons that weren't S8 (except his infantrybolters). Ramshackle doesn't work against S8+. In reality, GW needs to change Ramshackle to work all the time regardless of weapon strength.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
* What's the issue with the KFF?
You are paying 30pts for a 6++ Bubble around your morkanaut. Its too expensive for what little it does. GW is mentally handicapped when it comes to orkz. They did their best job possible to eliminate orkz taking horde armies by removing any benefits we get from horde and by removing buffing characters and durability boosts for large units. This included nerfing the KFF from a 5+ to a 6+ Invuln. Problem being that they didn't adjust the cost so you are in essence paying for a 5++ to cover hordes of infantry, but you are only getting a 6++ and nobody is taking hordes.



One of the best fixes for Orkz in general would be a USR that says orkz BS can never be impacted by - modifiers except when they also have a + modifier in effect. The aforementioned Morkanaut is MORE likely to hurt itself than the enemy if the enemy has a -1 to hit.

That, increasing morkanaut to a 4+ to hit, lowering both models by 50pts and giving it permanent Ramshackle that works against all weapon strengths would put them solidly in the competitive slot. anything less than that is just doing what GW loves to do, give it a few points cut and laugh when nobody takes it because its still hot garbage.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Wyldhunt wrote:
Speaking, again, as an ork outsider, I think I'd probably be fine with the Morkanaught having a 5++. Maybe even giving a 5++ to nearby vehicles (though giving it to non-vehicles might be a stretch given its size).

Here's a silly idea for that awkward transport capacity: let them transport deff dreads. Enemy has too much dakka for your smaller walker to safely cross the table? Stick 'im in your bigger walker until he's safely in krumpin' distance!

But more seriously, fiddling with points costs and maybe making the Morkanaut BS 4+ seems like a decent, simple way to help these two out. They *are* rather beefy, and that seems to be their main job. So just making them do that job a bit more cost-effectively might be all they need?

Question: I know they're meant to be llittle representations of Gork and Mork, but isn't that also supposed to be true of the Stompa? Does the Stompa have some sort of inspiration rule, and is it weird if a mek half the Stompa's size also has such a rule?


Semper and panzer covered a lot of points that I wanted to say, but yeah the KFF is in a sorry state right now. You need to blow 2CP to even get back to the old 5+ invuln, it's only for a turn, even if it's 9" range, and then afterwards it's flat out destroyed, no 6+ invuln even after you've boosted it. And that's a once per game strat. There's a reason why they had to errata in a 5+ invuln when you call a regular WAAAGH for Orks, because our ability to survive the current AP laden meta is incredibly low. So yeah, even if it affected infantry, it legit wouldn't be game breaking given how fragile most Ork models are.

Also, having played both, given that unless you play the recent season for AoO, you would usually not have the klan traits (most of which aren't that great for them anyways besides Goffs and Deathskulls) they are incredibly fragile and terrible performance wise for their cost. The Morkanaut only needs to have dense terrain to basically render its shooting basically nil, and against factions like Eldar where negative modifiers to hit are commonplace, you're better off taking a couple of Mega Dreds tellyporting in with ramming speed.

Stompas are an entirely other can of worms, where GW has all but given up on being able to write effective rules for them. Believe or not, Stompas are worse than Gorkanaut and Morkanuts in the sense that they have a terrible degrading damage table, their guns are anemic and the sheer size of the model with lack of fly means it'll be roadblocked most of the game. The Stompa should ideally be a fusion of the two, with WS2+ and BS4+ to reflect it's twin nature as an living effigy of Gork/Mork. It's current morale aura rule is a joke and frankly it would need to let us autopass morale for it to be actually meaningful. Regardless, it sets the precedent that Morkanauts and Gorkanauts should at least do something on their competently, if not at least be a force multiplier for Dred Mob style lists if they don't rewrite Meks/Big Meks to actually give buffs to vehicles in some way. Keep in mind that the SpeedWAAAGH and regular WAAAGH really doesn't do anything besides give them AP and slightly more firepower, or the latter where most people take just to get the extra attack and invuln (they don't get advance and charge because none of our vehicles have CORE).

Keep in mind that we basically have some of the worst faction strats in the game with no units whose auras or command phase abilities that explicitly synergize with our walker units, barring the WAAAGH! Banner, which is usually not in range, or repairs from Meks, which rarely if ever comes up since most walkers just die in volley of shooting. I think only 2-3 strats are relevant for our walkers, most of which are typically better used on other units and are CP intensive. In fact the keyword they share, WALKERZ, literally does nothing except for a very specific command ability for a Goff-Klan locked special character from Forgeworld, who is by no means competitive.

GW really dropped the ball for the non-buggy side of things, the baseline rules should have given more options for different types of WAAAGH's based on your HQ besides Warbosses/Speedbosses, to allow for DreadWAAAGH! or hell even WeirdWAAAGH! given the precedent in fluff for Weirdboy led warbands. But that's for another thread.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/27 05:09:41


 
   
Made in pl
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




On the topic of buffs they could hand out to say "Walkerz" units, perhaps we could break it down into specific effects on Walkers within a certain range or LOS of the naut. This could even be done by biting off a little of the Guard's orders or the Waaagh system we currently have. When the Warboss calls a Waaagh or Speedwaaagh it could result in Gorks and Morks essentially functioning as buffs for the Walkers for the Waaagh's duration, connecting the mechanism into our current syste,.

Lets start with the Gork and its potential effects on the lesser walkers. Naturally Deff Dread effects should extend to Mega Dreads.

For Killa Kanz, we could have it help mitigate their awful leadership and provide a slight buff to their melee, perhaps a reroll 1s to hit in melee aura.
For Deff Dreads it could either bring a +1 to attacks, or a buff to charges and movement.

The Morkanaut itself could then be more shooting and survivability based effects.

For Killa Kanz they could either throw out a reroll 1s to hit in shooting, or a "Full Salvo" where all roll for shot weapons fire at maximum shots, and Dakka Weapons use the shot range profile no matter the range. Defensively we could channel some of the fluff from the Sanctus Reach books where the Dreads and Kanz were used as relay nodes for the Ork shield bubbles, and have them each gain 5++s, and/or extra defense against heavy weapons.

For Deff Dreads, I figure shooting buffs for any dread you kit out with them similar to the Kanz, or perhaps a Fall back and charge mechanic. I could also see them throwing out a Invuln for a short time for Deff Dreads, just a little more help getting them closer to the enemy.

Trying to be creative and also use the fluff when I can as inspiration for this sort of thing.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





Have to agree with most of what has been already said and maybe go a little further. Now T9 seems not be a taboo anymore, I would like it to be added to the Nauts profile.

Morka 10" 3+ 4+ s8 t9 4a 24w 9ld 3+ 5++ bubble
3d3 s8 -4 3+1d3
4d3 s8 -2 d3
+Shootas
Eye laser assault 1 s9 -3 1d6 autohit (as killrig without potential 1D3).

Gorka 10" 2+ 5+ s8 t9 6a 24w 9ld 2+
Gigashota s7 -2 1 (as a step up from supashoota)
+Shootas

Both ramshackle, vehicle, titanic

Additional rule as effigie would be nice. Something like +1ld and +1 to attrition.
Or even more meaningful and customizable paying points accordingly.
   
 
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