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I understand the desire to streamline the rules and reduce the need to flip through the rulebook during a game, but psychic mishaps are *supposed* to be random and unpredictable. It would be nice if two sets of rules coexisted, to be agreed upon by the players before battle: the boring D3 wounds for Very Serious Tournament Players, and a D6 or 2D6 table for those who prefer the old-timey flavor of not being able to predict if your psyker will be swallowed by the Warp or randomly turned into (even more of) a killing machine.

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No, the problem is that all witchfire powers became mortal wounds of some kind.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
No, the problem is that all witchfire powers became mortal wounds of some kind.

This. Mortal Wounds are just lazy game development.

Mortal Wounds are not lazy. They are fast. They avoid the roll, to roll, to roll aspect that is common in much of the game.

Do you really want to make a Psychic Test, to roll for a random number of attacks, to roll to hit, to roll to wound, then have your opponent roll to Save? Every time you use a Witchfire-type power? That is not fun, that is tedious.

Now there are problems with Mortal Wounds in that they entirely negate SvT, which can result in odd things. But does it really matter when we are talking Psychic Powers?

As for the original topic, a Perils of the Warp table doesn't make psychic powers less flavorful. It makes Perils of the Warp more predictable and less devastating to the psychers army.

 alextroy wrote:
Mortal Wounds are not lazy. They are fast. They avoid the roll, to roll, to roll aspect that is common in much of the game.

But they're generally small. Assume each Discipline has two Witchfires - one can be MW, the other should be a high hit Blast type of power.

Do you really want to make a Psychic Test, to roll for a random number of attacks, to roll to hit, to roll to wound, then have your opponent roll to Save? Every time you use a Witchfire-type power? That is not fun, that is tedious.

Now there are problems with Mortal Wounds in that they entirely negate SvT, which can result in odd things. But does it really matter when we are talking Psychic Powers?

As for the original topic, a Perils of the Warp table doesn't make psychic powers less flavorful. It makes Perils of the Warp more predictable and less devastating to the psychers army.

I'd like to go back to Second Edition Dark Millenium really. That was pretty fun.

 alextroy wrote:
Mortal Wounds are not lazy. They are fast. They avoid the roll, to roll, to roll aspect that is common in much of the game.

Do you really want to make a Psychic Test, to roll for a random number of attacks, to roll to hit, to roll to wound, then have your opponent roll to Save? Every time you use a Witchfire-type power? That is not fun, that is tedious.

Honestly? Yes. I don't get this constant need to speed the game up, and having different power profiles would force you to think more about where to use each power, rather than just "I roll this and you take D3 MWs, I also roll this and you take another MW".

As for the original topic, a Perils of the Warp table doesn't make psychic powers less flavorful. It makes Perils of the Warp more predictable and less devastating to the psychers army.

How is a random table more predictable than "I take D3 MWs"?

A random table can contain an effect that kills your psyker regardless of remaining wounds or ends your entire psychic phase, that is harder to plan around. You can save your CP-re-roll for damaged units currently.

Perhaps instead of dying to a mortal wound your opponent could get a free chaos spawn they controlled?

Question: do you roll for random warlord trait and psychic power generation?

Because in my experience people hated the "lol random" tables and that's why no one rolls for them anymore.

 Valkyrie wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
As for the original topic, a Perils of the Warp table doesn't make psychic powers less flavorful. It makes Perils of the Warp more predictable and less devastating to the psychers army.

How is a random table more predictable than "I take D3 MWs"?

I got my statement reversed there. Not having Peril of the Warp table makes Perils of the Warp more predictable and less devastating to the psychers army. Knowing the Psycher may kill themselves is one thing, but knowing he may blow up nearby friends is another.

 Tyran wrote:
Question: do you roll for random warlord trait and psychic power generation?

Because in my experience people hated the "lol random" tables and that's why no one rolls for them anymore.

To be honest, I even hate the "Psykers must memorize their spells before the battle DND style"

I fiugure, If it's going to be a phase/play style then turn it loose. Give (almost) all the armies a way to play or counter it. There should be a couple who just miss out - like Tau with the Fight Phase, or (presumably) World Eaters and the Shooting Phase who only get token participations. Otherwise just make it some boosts and bombs like the reroll bubble, and the Litanies and be done with it.

alextroy wrote:Mortal Wounds are not lazy. They are fast. They avoid the roll, to roll, to roll aspect that is common in much of the game.

Do you really want to make a Psychic Test, to roll for a random number of attacks, to roll to hit, to roll to wound, then have your opponent roll to Save? Every time you use a Witchfire-type power? That is not fun, that is tedious.

Now there are problems with Mortal Wounds in that they entirely negate SvT, which can result in odd things. But does it really matter when we are talking Psychic Powers?

As for the original topic, a Perils of the Warp table doesn't make psychic powers less flavorful. It makes Perils of the Warp more predictable and less devastating to the psychers army.

I don't miss the random roll to do a random number of shots that do a random number of etc. etc. But that said, I would like to see more psychic powers that basically let you resolve an attack that doesn't do mortal wounds. Mortal wounds by their nature automatically mean that a lot of the "budget" of the power goes into bypassing armor/toughness. Consequently, witchfires all tend to end up either being anti-heavy-armor powers or else having a very low chance of doing much against non hordes (see: any power where you roll 1d6 per model in the target unit and only do damage 1/6th of the time). It would be nice to have a psychic power that basically just gives your psyker a nice little flamer-like attack for the turn, or a power that does a decent number of mid-strength/low-AP attacks.

Mechanically, it adds variety and doesn't have to take forever to resolve. Fluff-wise, not every psychic power is a terminator slayer. Sometimes you're just telekinetically tossing rocks at a guy or blasting them with lightning.

-Guardsman- wrote:I understand the desire to streamline the rules and reduce the need to flip through the rulebook during a game, but psychic mishaps are *supposed* to be random and unpredictable. It would be nice if two sets of rules coexisted, to be agreed upon by the players before battle: the boring D3 wounds for Very Serious Tournament Players, and a D6 or 2D6 table for those who prefer the old-timey flavor of not being able to predict if your psyker will be swallowed by the Warp or randomly turned into (even more of) a killing machine.

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Personally, I think the old table where you could randomly go super saiyan and the current system where psykers are reliably blowing themselves up are both kind of meh. Psychic powers randomly causing your psyker to die/explode sort of works for the fluff of imperials and orks, but it's frankly kind of weird that Ahriman and other Thousand Sorcerers have to worry about perils at all. Ditto harlequin Shadowseers. Not because they're necessarily immune to perils in the lore, but because randomly dying because luldice just doesn't fit their fluff very well.

Personally, I'd be inclined to overhault he psychic system to make casting powers more reliable (or even automatic), to get rid of Deny the Witch, and to make "Perils" something that only happens to relatively risky/untrained psykers (wyrd boyz, wyrdvane psykers, etc.) or to psykers that are actively pushing their powers to their limits.

But failing that, take a look at the 7th edition corsairs perils table. Every result on there was fluffy, unpleasant, and made you feel like your psyker just had a bad experience, but none of them did that in a way that suddenly makes your psyker explode or go super saiyan. Because your several millenia old space elves probably shouldn't die from using their powers just because of a 2d6 roll.

So what’s the proposed rule here exactly; bring back the Perils of the Warp chart? I’d broadly be in favor.

To dog pile the rapidly veering conversation a bit: both sides are right to an extent. Almost all powers becoming some variation of “beat this to deal a couple mortal wounds” is weak-sauce. Like wise, it’s hugely frustrating to make powers simply Like-Guns-But-More-Steps. And a big power with the old system was both the randomization and the the absurdly broken nature of many of the powers (invisibility).

Really, I think that the problems psykers face comes from what is (imo) 40k’s biggest issue. The only way units interact is via killing each other. With extremely limited exceptions, 40k units - and armies - just kill each other and do nothing else. The lack of other ways to meaningfully interact with enemy units utterly cripples psykers, who should be based around the idea of unique and interesting - but not insanely broken - utility interactions.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Really, I think that the problems psykers face comes from what is (imo) 40k’s biggest issue. The only way units interact is via killing each other. With extremely limited exceptions, 40k units - and armies - just kill each other and do nothing else. The lack of other ways to meaningfully interact with enemy units utterly cripples psykers, who should be based around the idea of unique and interesting - but not insanely broken - utility interactions.

What do you think maledictions and blessings are? What are actions and ObSec? There are only three things to do in a miniature game, stand there, kill that or push buttons, 9th introducing actions added the final option. Psychic powers do sometimes interact with where models stand, ObSec and actions, but should all of them do that or is there a game mechanic that you'd like GW to introduce?

So what’s the proposed rule here exactly; bring back the Perils of the Warp chart? I’d broadly be in favor.

To dog pile the rapidly veering conversation a bit: both sides are right to an extent. Almost all powers becoming some variation of “beat this to deal a couple mortal wounds” is weak-sauce. Like wise, it’s hugely frustrating to make powers simply Like-Guns-But-More-Steps. And a big power with the old system was both the randomization and the the absurdly broken nature of many of the powers (invisibility).

Really, I think that the problems psykers face comes from what is (imo) 40k’s biggest issue. The only way units interact is via killing each other. With extremely limited exceptions, 40k units - and armies - just kill each other and do nothing else. The lack of other ways to meaningfully interact with enemy units utterly cripples psykers, who should be based around the idea of unique and interesting - but not insanely broken - utility interactions.

Maybe I'm weird, but having some psychic powers just be guns doesn't seem like a terrible thing. I remember 4th edition eldar warlocks and the destructor power. Warlocks didn't have to take psychic tests at the time. You were basically using up your psychic power slot to give your warlock a heavy flamer instead of a blessing. In that same codex, the Eldritch Storm psychic power was essentially just a gun with a psychic test and the added quirk of getting to change the direction an enemy vehicle was facing. (Which could potentially leave it more susceptible to attacks against its rear armor.)

Neither was terrible complicated. Both had their use cases. It was fine. You could pretty easily have more powers-as-guns in 9th edition. You'd just want to consider either making the power hit automatically (the psychic test is already a failure point, and it makes sense that you wouldn't "miss" when trying to telepathically make a brian explode) or else making the profile of the "gun" impressive enough to justify the added failure point.

Of course, I think there's an argument to be made for getting rid of psychic tests entirely, but that's another can of worms.

Totally agree that there should be more utility powers though. Give us the ability to lay down banks of fog or darkness (counts as dense or obscuring terrain) or put up temporary forcefields (blocks movement) or what have you.

I disagree with the OP that Perils of the Warp tables are what led to a loss of flavour.

Most of the powers currently available to psykers are simply very boring.

In my homebrew I'm handling it like this:
- There are 6 psychic disciplines available to everybody on top of a faction specific one.
- Before the battle, the psyker selects a complete discipline and knows all of the 6 respective powers.

This - in theory - gives me the possibility to add very niche or situational powers to a discipline with strange effects that are worth it in some situations, while having some reliable and "makes sense to use it most of the time" powers.

Example: Pyromancy

1. Fireball
Long range blast which is good against groups of weaker enemies or light vehicles.

2. Flaming hands
Just a heavy flamer.

3. Fire shield
Attackers in melee suffer damage for successfull hits.

4. Overheating
Enemy plasma weapons overheat on a 1 or 2 and have to use their overheating profile.

5. Inferno
A terrain piece becomes dangerous terrain for the rest of the game. Models touching the piece during their activation suffer damage.

6. Draconic aspect
Leadership debuff for nearby enemies.


Instead of having to hit rolls for psychic powers, they hit automatically. The psychic test needed is adjusted accordingly. I do not have mortal wounds and instead use weapon profiles.

a_typical_hero wrote:
I disagree with the OP that Perils of the Warp tables are what led to a loss of flavour.

Most of the powers currently available to psykers are simply very boring.

In my homebrew I'm handling it like this:
- There are 6 psychic disciplines available to everybody on top of a faction specific one.
- Before the battle, the psyker selects a complete discipline and knows all of the 6 respective powers.

This - in theory - gives me the possibility to add very niche or situational powers to a discipline with strange effects that are worth it in some situations, while having some reliable and "makes sense to use it most of the time" powers.

Example: Pyromancy

1. Fireball
Long range blast which is good against groups of weaker enemies or light vehicles.

2. Flaming hands
Just a heavy flamer.

3. Fire shield
Attackers in melee suffer damage for successfull hits.

4. Overheating
Enemy plasma weapons overheat on a 1 or 2 and have to use their overheating profile.

5. Inferno
A terrain piece becomes dangerous terrain for the rest of the game. Models touching the piece during their activation suffer damage.

6. Draconic aspect
Leadership debuff for nearby enemies.


Instead of having to hit rolls for psychic powers, they hit automatically. The psychic test needed is adjusted accordingly. I do not have mortal wounds and instead use weapon profiles.

Would you mind sharing the 6 universal psychic disciplines? Sounds like fun.

THe way 30k does psychic powers to me is the best, weapon profiles or buffs that either go off automatically or can be/ has to have a psychic test to resolve or get a stronger profile, adding some risk vs reward.