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Reading the ongoing complaints about Forge World's resin tanks, and looking at how Reaper has recently moved to 3d prints for mass productions, I wonder is it possible for FW to move to a line of 3d prints.

I know 3d printers are not magic and need a lot of care and feeding but moving to a printer farm model would eliminate a lot of issues of inventory, replacing molds and QC/customer satisfaction.

Has any company tried something on this scale?

I thought privateer press have and it's largely back firing?

How much could they possibly ask for an STL? Compared to nickle and diming the customers forever?

I'd think GW to be among the last companies to embrace 3D printing tbh

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Reading the ongoing complaints about Forge World's resin tanks, and looking at how Reaper has recently moved to 3d prints for mass productions, I wonder is it possible for FW to move to a line of 3d prints.

I know 3d printers are not magic and need a lot of care and feeding but moving to a printer farm model would eliminate a lot of issues of inventory, replacing molds and QC/customer satisfaction.

Has any company tried something on this scale?

I don't think that 3d printing would be better than classic resin casting from a QC perspective, you'd just swap one set of QC problems for another - slipped/degraded molds would be a thing of the past, but you'd need to trim supports, have all sorts of issues with 'elephants foot' and the like, and have a percentage of prints just fail randomly, or have weird surface issues. If you trim the supports in-house you'd need to invest a lot of manual and somewhat-skilled labour, which is a huge cost driver, and if you leave it to the customer you have the same to worse return rates than with classic casts because of errors you missed that had been hidden by the supports.

I don't think it's entirely viable for commercial operations at the scale of FW, although it's getting closer.

Dudeface wrote:
I thought privateer press have and it's largely back firing?

because their quality control is gak and theyre sending uncured minis lol.

No, i don't think 3d printing (as it currently stands) is a viable alternative for a big company

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I thought privateer press have and it's largely back firing?

because their quality control is gak and theyre sending uncured minis lol.

No, i don't think 3d printing (as it currently stands) is a viable alternative for a big company

Maybe, just maybe, for stuff like rhino doors, shoulderplates and so on that you could do almost supportless, but even then it would essentially remain a niche within an niche, and for these parts classic casting is just much faster, and thus more economical.

Probably not, no.

Whilst GW of course do rapid prototyping via 3D Printing and this almost certainly know about it than most? To set up for production is gonna be expensive.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I thought privateer press have and it's largely back firing?

because their quality control is gak and theyre sending uncured minis lol.

No, i don't think 3d printing (as it currently stands) is a viable alternative for a big company

Not really? I've gotten the Orgoth starter and the Dusk sampler box, no issues.

That "uncured minis" nonsense was debunked back when it first happened.

What's crazy to me is that some FW stuff has worse 3D print lines (from the master being 3D printed) than models my friends print in their bedroom on an $800 hobbyist grade printer. The weapon on my Van Saar leader looks 3D printed even though I got it straight from FW.

Toofast wrote:
What's crazy to me is that some FW stuff has worse 3D print lines (from the master being 3D printed) than models my friends print in their bedroom on an $800 hobbyist grade printer. The weapon on my Van Saar leader looks 3D printed even though I got it straight from FW.

Weird because I'm always preached at about how great 3d prints are and are better quality than case models etc etc

3D printing isn't really less work and depending on the supports setup (which varies on skill of the operator, resin, printer but also the nature and shape of the model itself); so it could be just as much work to clean models up.

I would say its generally (for most resins) better than PVC in terms of how easy the material is to clean, but whilst cast models have a single logical mould line you can trace around the model; presupport marks can be all over the place and be a little trickier to sort out. Plus you can get layer line issues and such so you can end up with a great model but a lot of more prep work





The other issue is 3D printing doesn't scale anywhere near as well as casting does. Considering some FW is now on the GW main store and GW's marketbase I would wager that 3D printing would be a big increase in costs in terms of staff to oversee it all and in how many machines they'd need. Casting is way faster.

The only reason 3d print models don't move to casting is because most aren't made with casting in mind and the cuts to make it work could be very complicated and many models would likely fail at the transition.


So in general I'd say that 3D printing wouldn't be likely as a production method.






The reason PP have gone for it is because their market has contracted down and they are tiny now; coupled to their need for rapid deployment in different regions without shipping from a main hub. They are basically shifting their entire operation to get around their historical problems with shipping and warehousing; esp to the EU and UK markets. Basically They are using 3D printing because they can't easily afford to keep going with metal and they can't scale up.
My impression is they are using 3D printing to ride out a rough financial and logistics patch with a view that if they can recover their finances they can move back to casting in the future. Or hope that 3D printing keeps improving and ride that.

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:
What's crazy to me is that some FW stuff has worse 3D print lines (from the master being 3D printed) than models my friends print in their bedroom on an $800 hobbyist grade printer. The weapon on my Van Saar leader looks 3D printed even though I got it straight from FW.

Weird because I'm always preached at about how great 3d prints are and are better quality than case models etc etc

thats what the post youre responding to is saying.... printed is better than FW

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:
What's crazy to me is that some FW stuff has worse 3D print lines (from the master being 3D printed) than models my friends print in their bedroom on an $800 hobbyist grade printer. The weapon on my Van Saar leader looks 3D printed even though I got it straight from FW.

Weird because I'm always preached at about how great 3d prints are and are better quality than case models etc etc

That's literally what I said, that an $800 printer being used by mid 20s guy in his mom's spare bedroom can put out a better model than what I received from Forge World even in their newest designs. Also typically I hear 3D printers being touted as a way to get more customized models or much cheaper models that are almost or just as good. Nobody is 3D printing because of better quality than FW, they're 3D printing because it's almost as good or the same quality for 10% of the price.

3D printing "can" be cheaper if you compare model to model costs.

But I'd say over all its not actually cheaper. You just end up shifting into an entirely new hobby direction and spending just as much

 Overread wrote:
3D printing "can" be cheaper if you compare model to model costs.

But I'd say over all its not actually cheaper. You just end up shifting into an entirely new hobby direction and spending just as much

even if you're only printing one army, its cheaper to get a printer than buy it from GW lol.

Any print after that just furthers the gap

 Overread wrote:
3D printing "can" be cheaper if you compare model to model costs.

But I'd say over all its not actually cheaper. You just end up shifting into an entirely new hobby direction and spending just as much

You probably spend as much but have way more to show for it. My wife loves board games and we aren't a fan of the typical neckbeards at the FLGS so we mostly just play at home. That means any game I'm getting into will most likely require 2 armies and terrain if we don't have the proper terrain for that scale/game. Just my 4x4 Necromunda table probably has $800 of terrain on it because it was all GW stuff. I could have bought a really nice printer for that price. Then we have titanicus which requires different terrain at a different scale, and 40k which requires MUCH bigger armies. It would have probably saved me $2,000 to buy a printer just for the few games I play. I just don't have the time between working on my cars, taking care of my birds, etc so I get to pay $80 for a piece of terrain or scrounge ebay for deals.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:
What's crazy to me is that some FW stuff has worse 3D print lines (from the master being 3D printed) than models my friends print in their bedroom on an $800 hobbyist grade printer. The weapon on my Van Saar leader looks 3D printed even though I got it straight from FW.

Weird because I'm always preached at about how great 3d prints are and are better quality than case models etc etc

thats what the post youre responding to is saying.... printed is better than FW

Toofast wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:
What's crazy to me is that some FW stuff has worse 3D print lines (from the master being 3D printed) than models my friends print in their bedroom on an $800 hobbyist grade printer. The weapon on my Van Saar leader looks 3D printed even though I got it straight from FW.

Weird because I'm always preached at about how great 3d prints are and are better quality than case models etc etc

That's literally what I said, that an $800 printer being used by mid 20s guy in his mom's spare bedroom can put out a better model than what I received from Forge World even in their newest designs. Also typically I hear 3D printers being touted as a way to get more customized models or much cheaper models that are almost or just as good. Nobody is 3D printing because of better quality than FW, they're 3D printing because it's almost as good or the same quality for 10% of the price.

Printed is better than FW because FW kits have some 3d print artifacts on and look like a 3d print? How does that make any sense? But yes I agree people are 3d printing because they're cheap, despite it being an additional time intensive expensive hobby.

Dudeface wrote:

Printed is better than FW because FW kits have some 3d print artifacts on and look like a 3d print? How does that make any sense?

Because you add the downsides of warpy, non-fitting, PITA FW resin on top of the downsides of 3d printing.

I don’t want to have to sand the print lines off every kit.

Sanding and un-warping FW resin is pain in the arse enough as it is.

And I’m already far, far from convinced said warpage of the model isn’t the result of the varying temperatures involved in shipping, particularly as (anecdotally, it’s not like I’ve even pretended to be keeping track) folks paying for trans-oceanic shipping that seem* have the most to complain about.

*Again, it’s not like I’ve kept track. Do not read this as an attempt to paint anyone in a bad light, because it’s not. And if you insist, let’s just get my “sod off and wind your neck in” type comment here.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t want to have to sand the print lines off every kit.

Sanding and un-warping FW resin is pain in the arse enough as it is.

And I’m already far, far from convinced said warpage of the model isn’t the result of the varying temperatures involved in shipping, particularly as (anecdotally, it’s not like I’ve even pretended to be keeping track) folks paying for trans-oceanic shipping that seem* have the most to complain about.

*Again, it’s not like I’ve kept track. Do not read this as an attempt to paint anyone in a bad light, because it’s not. And if you insist, let’s just get my “sod off and wind your neck in” type comment here.

with the current range of printers, the print lines aren't an issue unless you're painting your minis to win a Golden demon, you definitely won't need to sand any lines

And, for FW’s purposes, how much do those cost? Each.

What sort of time sink to print something like a Super Heavy tank, based purely for reference point’s sake, the Baneblade size chassis, as that’s the granddaddy of Super Heavies?

From there, based on the current resin kit layout (size and dimensions matter) how many of such machines would you need to churn out, and this number is straight out my arse….three complete kits a day?

And this is an open question, because I genuinely don’t know the answer, so there’s no “gotcha” pending or being angled for.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And, for FW’s purposes, how much do those cost? Each.

What sort of time sink to print something like a Super Heavy tank, based purely for reference point’s sake, the Baneblade size chassis, as that’s the granddaddy of Super Heavies?

Depends tremendously on how you cut it up. The primary decider is the depth of the print, which will be whatever the "tallest" piece is. My small printer (well, co-owned, not-at-my-house) takes 6-8hrs for something 3 inches high, maybe?

Buuuut, the added time to print multiple at once is basically neglegible. For example, if I printed one Dreadnought it would take 8 hours. But if I printed 12 Dreadnoughts at once, it would also take 8 hours.

So it all depends on how you set up your jobs.

So imagine those software tools that inform the sprue layout of current GW kits, but then reimagine it for organizing incoming model orders and optimizing printer assignments and combining print bed layouts for FW kits in a warehouse of printers. That seems like an obvious future to me. I'd be shocked if some companies weren't already doing something similar.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And, for FW’s purposes, how much do those cost? Each.

What sort of time sink to print something like a Super Heavy tank, based purely for reference point’s sake, the Baneblade size chassis, as that’s the granddaddy of Super Heavies?

Depends tremendously on how you cut it up. The primary decider is the depth of the print, which will be whatever the "tallest" piece is. My small printer (well, co-owned, not-at-my-house) takes 6-8hrs for something 3 inches high, maybe?

Buuuut, the added time to print multiple at once is basically neglegible. For example, if I printed one Dreadnought it would take 8 hours. But if I printed 12 Dreadnoughts at once, it would also take 8 hours.

So it all depends on how you set up your jobs.

So imagine those software tools that inform the sprue layout of current GW kits, but then reimagine it for organizing incoming model orders and optimizing printer assignments and combining print bed layouts for FW kits in a warehouse of printers. That seems like an obvious future to me. I'd be shocked if some companies weren't already doing something similar.

IF FW was to swap to 3d printing, they'd get the huge commercial printers

^100% agree. I'm not imagining a farm of Mars2s or whatever it is I bought. I'm imagining a farm of $20k machines or whatever.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And, for FW’s purposes, how much do those cost? Each.

What sort of time sink to print something like a Super Heavy tank, based purely for reference point’s sake, the Baneblade size chassis, as that’s the granddaddy of Super Heavies?

From there, based on the current resin kit layout (size and dimensions matter) how many of such machines would you need to churn out, and this number is straight out my arse….three complete kits a day?

And this is an open question, because I genuinely don’t know the answer, so there’s no “gotcha” pending or being angled for.

I've got a modest Anycubic Photon 4K for ~$250. Took me about a week to print out a baneblade+ sized tank. That time includes having to do some parts reprints and lost time because I was asleep when part of a print would finish. Probably about 65 hours total to print, and it won't require any sanding. I'd only have to print around 2 tanks though to start getting better than GW's cost. If you wanted to print 3 kits a day, you'd probably need about 9 of the type I'm using (3 machines & 4 trays per model), but there are industrial ones that'd do the job much more efficiently than my little hobby printer.

On the flip side, between this current printer and the previous one I've printed out a hella ton of tank/vehicle minis - German WW2 28mm & 10mm, US WW2 28mm & 10mm, Russian WW2 28mm & 10mm, modern US 28mm & 10mm, modern Russian 28mm & 10mm, modern West Germany 28mm & 10mm and a boatload of FASA Star Trek minis, plus countless other miscellaneous items. It's all hobby money I could have spent on the likes of GW, but I got somewhere about 10 times as much and it was coming off the printer so fast I couldn't paint it quick enough to keep up.

Overall, I don't think GW will ever turn to doing 3D prints to customers (and they'd certainly never sell STL's) partly because of volume, partly because of efficiency and largely because of pride.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t want to have to sand the print lines off every kit.

Can you see the print lines? Zero sanding involved- and these weren't printed on a state-of-the-art machine by any means; these were from a Anycubic Photon S that cost me all of $150 a couple of years ago, hence the detail being a little soft compared to what higher-end machines can do.

For me it's actually been considerably less work to print models than to assemble FW resin. Setting up the models for printing (adding supports, mostly) takes some time, but I can just take the printed pieces, thoroughly clean them in isopropyl, dunk in hot water, and then the supports pull right off with no fuss in one piece.

One other thing I don't see mentioned much is that you can print complex geometries that would not be viable for casting, so a lot of models can be done without requiring subassemblies. These Battletech minis, for example, required no assembly at all.

Right now I think the main hurdle from a production standpoint is the time required for printing and the labor-intensive nature of the process, but given FW's issues with quality control, the end user experience is tremendously better with printed parts. Less assembly, no warpage, no mold lines, no slips.

Yeah obviously I'm thinking in terms of some sort of giant industrial machines that can churn out a couple of Thunderhawks a day.

And obviously I can't see any future where GW sells STLs. Do they even need to at this point?

(Though I can see a future where GW has an online 'build a space marine' app where you combine preexisting elements ala Hero Forge and then order your own print for $100)

The supports issue seems the biggest one, how do large scale makers like Privateer deal with it?

Dudeface wrote:

Toofast wrote:
What's crazy to me is that some FW stuff has worse 3D print lines (from the master being 3D printed) than models my friends print in their bedroom on an $800 hobbyist grade printer. The weapon on my Van Saar leader looks 3D printed even though I got it straight from FW.

Weird because I'm always preached at about how great 3d prints are and are better quality than case models etc etc

Only for newer models. A guy at my old place ordered a model from FW to make copies of it. And they clearly had parts of it damaged because the core body was of a different size then the side panels. It wasn't warping of resing or some other error, but plain part of the models being done from the original master, and the other part being done from a copy, which makes the models smaller. Not a problem when one copies 60 HH marines, but a big problem when the tank parts just can't physical aligne .

At GW prices, selling 3d prints or files makes no sense. People will not buy it , and copies of GW originals are everywhere, sometimes before GW makes an official premier of the new product.

I can clearly see print lines on my FW Glorfindel model since I did most of the clothing on the model with white and blue inks applied through an airbrush, including the underlying primer, so details like that is very much visible when under good lighting. Won't show up in photos or when playing though and if you pick it up and don't have a good light source you won't see them even if trying to look for it.

So since FW/GW already uses the tech for their newer products I don't doubt that they would switch over if it was more profitable. But printing takes a very long time and casting doesn't. They also have a lot of experience and tools already for resin casting while they don't for large scale 3d printing. But in a couple of years when 3d printing might be more reliable and instead of hiring someone to cast resin when they need more people they might look for people with 3d printing knowledge instead and instead of expanding the resin casting they might get printing tools and slowly phase resin casting over to 3d printing. A key component I think is how reliable and fast the printers are and ease of use. If they never mess up or fail and almost every print is perfect and they can do it 24/7 without too much clean up after then it becomes easy enough with money to just expand production. But if you need a lot of supports and manual cleaning of the models and if there are constant misprints then the man hours needed is probably just too much.

If they even go that route and not just expand their plastic manufacturing instead and make everything that way. They are much larger now and even the niche FW stuff is probably selling enough that making it in plastic is profitable (if they already werent at production capacity that is) and modern plastic isn't that far away from resin in details unlike a couple of decades ago. Might just be easier to remove/merge FW 100% and do everything in plastic. Only one site and one material for everything.

3D printing right now is amazing since you only need a couple of machines to make anything an entire club/local community would ever need since they are so flexible and you can print fantasy terrain one day, 40k bits the next and then some ww2 tanks for BA the day after etc. But for mass production it isn't that great. I have a couple of 3d print guys in my community that I recommend to other people and that I source terrain and models from and for some stuff I want multiples of they make their own silicone moulds and resin cast copies of rather than print more. It is just much quicker even for people doing it as mostly a hobby in their garage/workshop at home.

I can't imagine it would be any better. You get a more brittle material, a larger minimum feature size, and a slower production rate. 3d printing is great for prototypes and low-volume home production where you only want a single copy of a sculpt, it's not very good for high-volume manufacturing where fast and efficient production of each copy is how you make money.

And TBH the hate on resin is way overstated. FW tank kits generally involve about the same cleanup work as GW plastic, if not less. You have more warped parts but a lot fewer mold lines and the ability to do complex parts in a single piece means a lot fewer gaps to fill and alignment issues to correct. Yeah, resin can have mold slip but with plastic you're generating your own mold slip every time you fail to flawlessly align the two halves of a part that would be cast as a single piece in resin.