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I want to write the backdrop/history for a combined 40k wargaming and roleplaying campaign, that will be played out in the "present" day of the 40K universe, but will span far back into the history of man and the great crusade.

ASSUMPTIONS

Much like the Roman Empire, as it gradually fell into the Dark Ages, also gradually became more a victim of ignorance and superstition, the assumption here is that the 40k universe devolved gradually in the same way. Thus, the various re-writes of 40k history are simply a function of the Imperium growing gradually more corrupt and subject to counter-factual beliefs..

Thus, for example, there are no "primarchs", except in the sense that these represent the first space marines created through genetic manipulation. They are not now, nor were they ever, supernatural beings. There certainly are warp-entities, but they also are perfectly natural, and evil only in the sense that prey always views predator as evil.

Chaos creatures, such as warp daemons, vampires, enslavers, etc., are perfectly natural in the sense that they evolved naturally out of warp space, which is itself a perfectly natural place.

The endless rewrites of 40k history are exactly what would be expected in a society of this nature. One faction takes over the Administratum, executes everybody with opinions they find objectionable, rewrites them to fit "true" orthodoxy, and then, a thousand or so years later (or maybe a thousand or so DAYS later, depending on the stability of the new regime) the same thing happens, and the old orthodoxy becomes the new heresy, and gets rewritten again.

This will all culminate in a universe of the "present" time, in which the PCs are forced to confront the truths that the Administratum, Inquisition, Navis Nobilite and most other power groups of the Imperium will not wish to face.

HOW IT WOULD WORK OUT IN PLAY

This is a roleplaying campaign in which the PCs can and will kill each other, as things go on, as most will find themselves devoted to / enmeshed in, the various core beliefs espoused by their particular factions. Each player can then take on a new character, as long as the party is never wiped out as a whole, which will end the campaign. Oddly enough, the less powerful characters will probably have a higher rate of survival, as their lesser importance in the grand political scheme of things will not so obviously place cross-hairs on their backs.

WHAT SYSTEM

System agnostic. I know it might make sense to write it for Dark Heresy or something, but I prefer to let the GM use whatever he wishes.

WHAT I WANT FROM YOU GUYS

Two things:

1. Where on Dakka should this go? The 40k background forum seems the most logical place to me, or is something that runs afoul of the official history of the Imperium going to be seen as objectionable?

2. Co-conspirators. I really only have a vague idea at this point as to where I want all of this to go. I'd like everything from suggestions to full blown fan fiction to add to it. I'll probably start by writing it in snippets maybe once or twice a week. These might be character sketches, descriptions of battles or political intrigues, pieces of "history" that will re-write orthodoxy, etc.

SO, DOES THIS SOUND FUN?

Would it be worth making a one time, occasional, or even ongoing contribution to a work in progress?

IF SO, HERE'S THE STARTER:

(Note that the following has been deemed heretical by the Inquistion, demanding exterminatus upon any world in which it has been promulgated. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

---

[Excerpt | Chapter Approved, 1989] The Origin of the Legiones Astartes

The visitors waited in the elevator capsule whilst hidden pumps silently adjusted the temperature, humidity and pressure. When the doors opened there would be no sudden draught, no breeze to alter the constant thirty-one point seven degrees in the subterranean vault. In Laboratory Nine, the most stable environment on earth, chance had long since been eradicated.

Inside the laboratory, Dr Devram Outek and his staff shuffled nervously as machines made final miniscule adjustments to the capsule's oxygen content. In a moment they would be in the presence of the man who had planned and guided their work through five generations of human endeavour.

The visitors, sealed in their pristine suits, barely heard the doors move aside to reveal the shadowy world of red and yellow light. The technicians and scientists bowed as their visitors stepped from the lift.

'My Emperor', intoned Dr Outek.

'Dr Outek. Phase Nineteen is complete?'

The scientist straightened stiffly. 'Oh yes', he said, 'A pretty baby... very pretty indeed'.

The article then briefly introduces a very early version of the role of Space Marines in establishing the Imperium (here called 'the First Crusade' - no mention of Primarchs, Horus or Heresy yet!) and the existence of multiple subsequent Foundings, up to the 26th Founding (given as the most recent, 'in the year 738 of the current millennium'.

'...And here,' continued Dr Outek,'we have five of the phase eleven zygotes. The eldest has now been functioning uninterrupted for fourteen years.' The doctor gestured towards the row of glowing incubators containing several varieties of organic components in clear, bubbling baths.

'You call the organs zygotes?'

'Yes - our geneticists create a single germ cell for each new organ. Every cell takes years of work as you know. At that stage we can store the cells indefinitely in the zero-room as gene-seed. Inside the incubater [sic] we can activate and control the growth process. The cell divides, multiplies, and eventually grows into a whole organ. Until the organ is ready for implant, we refer to it as a zygote.'

The doctor led the party along the long row of glass cases, past incubators labelled with the names of the strange organs. He stopped at a large door emblazoned with the Imperial Eagle and the stark sign 'Security Zone One'.

'Now,' announced the doctor. 'Now you'll see what all this flesh and gristle really amounts to...'

---

Disclaimer: Not trying to yuck your yum. If you're excited about the idea, you should absolutely enjoy pursuing it.

That said, I feel like this concept might need to spend a little more time in the oven.

Obviously you seem to be using 40k as a starting point. However, you're also about making some pretty major changes to the existing setting/canon. This means that your potential players (presumably excited about the 40k setting) might be turned off by such differences. You can imagine how a certain subset of Star Wars fans might be less excited about playing a Star Wars RPG if you decided to retcon out droids or jedi or the Clone Wars or some other big piece of fluff.

Also, I get some red flags from this section:

:HOW IT WOULD WORK OUT IN PLAY

This is a roleplaying campaign in which the PCs can and will kill each other, as things go on, as most will find themselves devoted to / enmeshed in, the various core beliefs espoused by their particular factions. Each player can then take on a new character, as long as the party is never wiped out as a whole, which will end the campaign. Oddly enough, the less powerful characters will probably have a higher rate of survival, as their lesser importance in the grand political scheme of things will not so obviously place cross-hairs on their backs.

WHAT SYSTEM

System agnostic. I know it might make sense to write it for Dark Heresy or something, but I prefer to let the GM use whatever he wishes.

So from this, I gather:
A. It's an RPG, but only know the setting (not the system), but also we don't really know the setting because you intend to make some pretty major changes to the canon.

B.) Player vs player behavior is expected and encouraged. PVP is something that many RPG groups discourage or outright ban because of how it can be disruptive for RPGs, so this further limits your potential player base.

C.) Despite being PVP, player characters will also intentionally have different power levels meaning that PVP conflict will likely be one-sided, but also it might be one-sided in the opposite direction that you'd expect? One-sided PVP seems iffy to me in general, but it sounds like you're already banking on weaker characters being more survivable despite not having a system in mind and thus not having any mechanics in mind to support that notion.

Additionally, I'm not clear on what your overall goal is here. You write:

This will all culminate in a universe of the "present" time, in which the PCs are forced to confront the truths that the Administratum, Inquisition, Navis Nobilite and most other power groups of the Imperium will not wish to face.

So the project would be writing backstory for a setting that is basically the 40k lore but different in some moderately important ways, where players play a variety of characters that take steps to kill each other, and the plan is to have large time skips to see how the characters' previous choices impact future events?

Some questions:
1. What sort of characters are the players playing as? The changes to major parts of the setting and implied large time jumps suggests that they'd be playing as characters with extreme levels of influence on the galaxy/future of humanity. Like, high lords of Tera level influence. But then, I'm not sure the high lords of Tera lend themselves very well to most RPGs or wargames.

2. Why are you setting this in the 40k setting (sort of)? Anytime someone pitches an established setting but with significant adjustments, it makes me a smidge nervous as that can create confusion for your potential players. If you want something with a similar history/aesthetic, why not frame it as its own setting? Or if you do want this setting, what is your goal in making major changes to it?

3. What is the goal of the RPG portion? You don't have a system in mind, so it's not that you think the mechanics of an RPG would allow you to do something in particular. The PVP/frequent character death are both typically considered difficult fits for tabletop RPGs and will discourage players from getting attached to their characters. So my assumption is that you maybe just want to enjoy writing an alternative (future) history? But then, why try to loop in wargame or RPG elements at all? Why not just do a shared writing project or gameless roleplay or something?

I guess I'm just not clear on what exactly you're trying to do here. What's your goal?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Disclaimer: Not trying to yuck your yum. If you're excited about the idea, you should absolutely enjoy pursuing it.

That said, I feel like this concept might need to spend a little more time in the oven.

Obviously you seem to be using 40k as a starting point. However, you're also about making some pretty major changes to the existing setting/canon. This means that your potential players (presumably excited about the 40k setting) might be turned off by such differences. You can imagine how a certain subset of Star Wars fans might be less excited about playing a Star Wars RPG if you decided to retcon out droids or jedi or the Clone Wars or some other big piece of fluff.

Also, I get some red flags from this section:

:HOW IT WOULD WORK OUT IN PLAY

This is a roleplaying campaign in which the PCs can and will kill each other, as things go on, as most will find themselves devoted to / enmeshed in, the various core beliefs espoused by their particular factions. Each player can then take on a new character, as long as the party is never wiped out as a whole, which will end the campaign. Oddly enough, the less powerful characters will probably have a higher rate of survival, as their lesser importance in the grand political scheme of things will not so obviously place cross-hairs on their backs.

WHAT SYSTEM

System agnostic. I know it might make sense to write it for Dark Heresy or something, but I prefer to let the GM use whatever he wishes.

So from this, I gather:
A. It's an RPG, but only know the setting (not the system), but also we don't really know the setting because you intend to make some pretty major changes to the canon.

B.) Player vs player behavior is expected and encouraged. PVP is something that many RPG groups discourage or outright ban because of how it can be disruptive for RPGs, so this further limits your potential player base.

C.) Despite being PVP, player characters will also intentionally have different power levels meaning that PVP conflict will likely be one-sided, but also it might be one-sided in the opposite direction that you'd expect? One-sided PVP seems iffy to me in general, but it sounds like you're already banking on weaker characters being more survivable despite not having a system in mind and thus not having any mechanics in mind to support that notion.

Additionally, I'm not clear on what your overall goal is here. You write:

This will all culminate in a universe of the "present" time, in which the PCs are forced to confront the truths that the Administratum, Inquisition, Navis Nobilite and most other power groups of the Imperium will not wish to face.

So the project would be writing backstory for a setting that is basically the 40k lore but different in some moderately important ways, where players play a variety of characters that take steps to kill each other, and the plan is to have large time skips to see how the characters' previous choices impact future events?

Some questions:
1. What sort of characters are the players playing as? The changes to major parts of the setting and implied large time jumps suggests that they'd be playing as characters with extreme levels of influence on the galaxy/future of humanity. Like, high lords of Tera level influence. But then, I'm not sure the high lords of Tera lend themselves very well to most RPGs or wargames.

2. Why are you setting this in the 40k setting (sort of)? Anytime someone pitches an established setting but with significant adjustments, it makes me a smidge nervous as that can create confusion for your potential players. If you want something with a similar history/aesthetic, why not frame it as its own setting? Or if you do want this setting, what is your goal in making major changes to it?

3. What is the goal of the RPG portion? You don't have a system in mind, so it's not that you think the mechanics of an RPG would allow you to do something in particular. The PVP/frequent character death are both typically considered difficult fits for tabletop RPGs and will discourage players from getting attached to their characters. So my assumption is that you maybe just want to enjoy writing an alternative (future) history? But then, why try to loop in wargame or RPG elements at all? Why not just do a shared writing project or gameless roleplay or something?

I guess I'm just not clear on what exactly you're trying to do here. What's your goal?

Well, you certainly can't pull a bait-and-switch on people, and expect anything good to come of it. I plan on telling everybody right up front that though this will largely follow 40k, as far as troops, and characters are concerned, there will be some major differences.

What I was hoping was to work some of this out on Dakka, by writing back and forth on the plotline with other 40kers, but since there seems to be very little interest, I'll just let go with how the plot will work out,

Fortunately, none of my players is a member here, at least as far as I know.

What it is going to end up being Is the Emperor vs. Horus vs. Hari Seldon vs. Paul Atreides..

Yes, seems like a weird clash of plots, but I think it will be a lot of fun, for several reasons:

1. Most of these guys are big into old school sf, as well as 40k, and at least two enjoyed Asimov's Foundation series. All of them enjoyed Dune.

Foundation actually IMO, makes a fairly good cross with 40k. As both share two major tropes. One is "humanity as emerging psionic beings", and the other is "can robots be independent beings?" or the opposite side of that "Thou shalt not make a machine that thinks after the fashion of a man."

Foundation (at least the post-trilogy books) are all about self aware robots, which are going to guide humanity into a new paradise. Dune and 40k both see them as anathema.

SO, very briefly, the idea behind this universe would be that both the Emperor and Hari Seldon existed in it, at roughly the same time, and both got their respective organizations going. The Emperor his Imperium with its legions of genetically altered space marines, and Seldon his First and Second Foundations, seconded by Sonny, who is still around 40,000 years later (no surprise, right).

That's the very bare bones of it.

2. At some level, inter-party conflict is a truism in RPGing, whether RPGers want to admit it or not. As soon as something happens in the campaign (whether D&D, the old GW rpgs, or whatever) something has to give, and it is usually not desirable for the GM to just dive in and say that inter-party conflicts are not allowed, especially not in a universe like that of 40k, where almost everyone is polarized into some faction or another. Note that this is NOT to say thatevery conflict has to break out into all out inter-party war.

Still, it should not, IMHO, be prevented from on high, or the characters lose their motivation and realism

Of course, a LOT of plot element changes will have to be accounted for. Among other things, how do the Necrons fit in, with this major revelation.

Anyway, just quickly, Drs. Outek and Seldon were colleagues who were not impressed with each other. Outek went all in for the Emperor, who saw the only salvation of man being the iron boot of the man/organization who would one day become the Emperor/Imperium.

Seldon's nascent psykers. OTOH, were already beginning to get a glimpse of a future in which humanity would be crushed under its own yet-to-be-born psychic shadow (the Chaos Powers), and he also begins the glimpse the almost equally tyrannical rise of something like the Imperium.

So, Seldon does what he does in the books. He creates the "Encyclopedia Foundation" on a backwater world, and creates the Second Foundation at the hob of galactic civilization, in this case, earth.

This kind of sounds like an idea I had for a wrath and glory game where the players take the role of nobles, guiding a planet through 100 years of development and/or destruction.

I agree though, easier to pick a gaming system and just go with it. I recommend Wrath and Glory because it's relatively simple structure.

 Dekskull wrote:
This kind of sounds like an idea I had for a wrath and glory game where the players take the role of nobles, guiding a planet through 100 years of development and/or destruction.

I agree though, easier to pick a gaming system and just go with it. I recommend Wrath and Glory because it's relatively simple structure.

Much appreciated. Most of the games I play have a very political theme to them. Of course, so does most fantasy and SF. Generally, the hero is being driven by political forces, whether he knows it or not, from Frodo Baggins to Jaime Retief to Conan, politics ultimately intrudes into all.

I love the idea, it's like 40k brought down to terra (earth). I'm not sure I would be concerned with everything being natural so much as just low-psychic energy akin to a low-magic world.

Somethings are just better unexplained and not so in your face. I would expect the Primarchs to be more mythical as the Imperium writes them into history as demigods, same with E.

No highlander energy spewing out everywhere and no conveniently called back spirits to come back and save the day.

I wouldn't be able to join, but definitely support this.

 Adeptekon wrote:
I love the idea, it's like 40k brought down to terra (earth). I'm not sure I would be concerned with everything being natural so much as just low-psychic energy akin to a low-magic world.

Somethings are just better unexplained and not so in your face. I would expect the Primarchs to be more mythical as the Imperium writes them into history as demigods, same with E.

No highlander energy spewing out everywhere and no conveniently called back spirits to come back and save the day.

I wouldn't be able to join, but definitely support this.

CONSIDER THY POST EXALTED!

 NapoleonInSpace wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
I love the idea, it's like 40k brought down to terra (earth). I'm not sure I would be concerned with everything being natural so much as just low-psychic energy akin to a low-magic world.

Somethings are just better unexplained and not so in your face. I would expect the Primarchs to be more mythical as the Imperium writes them into history as demigods, same with E.

No highlander energy spewing out everywhere and no conveniently called back spirits to come back and save the day.

I wouldn't be able to join, but definitely support this.

CONSIDER THY POST EXALTED!

I could see something like this actually from a parallel reality where the great rift shot some space marines (what have you) back in time. It would be a clean slate and may not even be on the same course in order to end up where the 41st is.

I'm about fifty pages into it now. Enjoying the ever luvin' H out of it!