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Pages 1-8 of this thread are from the Index era. Page 9 onwards for Codex discussion.
Once the Codex is in players hands, points updated etc I will start updating this post with relevant info.
For now though..
The Lychguard is dead, long live the Wraith!
Legacy Index stuff:
Spoiler:
15/08/23 Edit:
Latest WHC Metawatch article:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/08/10/warhammer-40000-metawatch-the-first-win-rates-from-the-new-edition/ Sitting at an almost perfectly balanced 49% win rate could be a double edged sword. Necrons may well avoid any nerfs in upcoming balance changes (which could end up elevating the factions performance as the top armies get toned down), but also we'll probably avoid any buffs being handed out, especially for some of the less played units that are potentially overcosted.
Auspex Tactics Necron tier list breakdown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkpDCVXdVE8 Hard to disagree with anything in this vid so is a good starting point for new players. The only additional input I have on top of this is we have a very small grouping of units that are objectively trash, with the rest of the index being split into great/good/overcosted. The garbage tier units to currently avoid:
1. Psychomancer - easily the worst character in an army that focuses on character synergy. RAW the leadership debuff actually enhances enemy units.
2. Night Scythe - transport flyers without the hover ability and/or serious guns are currently worthless.
3. Convergence of Dominion - it costs as much as Nightbringer and does nothing of value. If you have this set it is better used as terrain or the galaxy's greatest tactical rock.
Necron GT topping list:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-10th-no-more-elves-pt-1/ Featuring a double Lycheguard brick, Transcendent C'Tan with sempiternal weave, and Hexmark with sovereign coronal surrounded by guns. A really good representation of the current tournament lists that are having success using unkillable Lycheguard supported by the most efficient killing units. A lot of the other tournament lists you'll see when checking out places like Goonhammer are very much in a similar style to this, although sometimes a reasonably well placed list featuring Monoliths will pop up (often a derivative of double Lycheguard plus double Monolith with supporting Hexmark).
Current meta unit choices:
The Lycheguard brick
*10 sword and board Lycheguard
*2 Cryptothralls
*Technomancer (preferably the cloak version)
*Lord or overlord with orb (overlord on your 1st unit, maybe a budget lord on 2nd unit)
One of the most durable anythings in the game right now. Tank high AP shots on the shields (T5, -1 to wound, 3+/4++/5+++). Tank low AP shots on the Crypto's (T5, -1 to wound, 3+/4+++). Great reanimations from the orb, potential free use of protocol of the undying legions, and is a fantastic way to mess with enemy target prioritisation (as they likely will not succeed in destroying you). Don't forget that Crypto's become part of the bodyguard unit, so benefit from higher toughness, -1 to wound, and can be resurrected continuously while the unit lives. The faster cloak-mancer can move around the unit to heal other things without slowing the unit down, and has a massive base which can help with placing reanimated models in helpful places (up front for closing down charge ranges).
Hexmark with sovereign coronal + gun line.
Low cost character with lone operative, enhanced overwatch, and a nifty aura ability (reactive shooting). Can combine with the excellent enhancement the sovereign coronal to layer up another aura to give all units in range the detachment leader buff. This combines amazingly well with some of the efficient gun platforms in the index, particularly vehicles that cannot be led any over way. Common units to sit in the aura:
*Lokhust Heavy Destroyers with gauss destructors
*Doomsday Arks
Transcendent C'Tan with sempiternal weave.
Big monster with a 4+++, and can teleport around the board when it advances (and remember, repositioned units from teleport abilities count as having made a normal move, so shooting and charging are allowed). Recently buffed further by having reanimation protocols retrospectively added to the datasheet - this model can now regen up to 3D3 wounds per turn on top of it's in built durability (D3 reanimation, another D3 reanimation if you stand near a Reanimator, another D3 repaired if you stand near a Technomancer). Not an epic hero like the other shards, but a harder model to get your hands on. The Void Dragon is probably the 2nd choice C'Tan shard.
Canoptek Reanimator.
Cheap enough that if it dies, it has still served it's purpose by directing fire away from other things. If you can hide it from enemy fire, any of your units not completely killed are liable to just get back up. Special mention to trying to keep these in range of Technomancers (can repair an additional D3 wounds on top of the 2D3 it would reanimate) and/or Spyders (to get a 6+++).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/11/26 09:54:22
I missed that about the Hexmark. It was one of my recent purchases. Hooray!
And yeah, literally every Necron strat gets boosted if the unit has a character leading it. Suddenly glad I have 4 Overlords from various combo boxes!
I already liked the Reanimator in 9th. It's better in 10th.
On the whole, far more enthused about Necrons than my other army, Slaanesh. My first game of 10th will be Necrons for sure. Already put together a 1000 points list. (My group will play some 1k games first to familiarise ourselves with 10th. After that, probably 1500 most of the time.)
I'm gonna try running a Royal Warden with some Immortals. Gives them Assault AND Heavy. So if there's a choice target, Heavy lets me hit on 2+. If I need to move, Assault will let me advance if needed and still shoot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reanimator has 2 Atomiser Beams, but the part I like most is that every unit within 12" gets +1d3 wounds in reanimation. In 9th, it was 1 unit per turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plan is to chuck a single Reanimator behind 2 squads of Warriors. Shoiuld be cost effective.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/17 00:52:31
Hecate wrote:*snip* I'm gonna try running a Royal Warden with some Immortals. Gives them Assault AND Heavy. So if there's a choice target, Heavy lets me hit on 2+. If I need to move, Assault will let me advance if needed and still shoot.
*snip*
Hit roll modifiers are still capped at +/-1 maximum, so our detachment rule provides that innately. Assault is very useful though. When new detachments start coming out I think the Warden will go up in value quite a bit.
usernamesareannoying wrote:What is tank shock?
*snip*
A new core rulebook stratagem. 1 Vehicle can roll to cause MW when it charges, rolling a number of dice based on it's melee strength characteristic.
Well, the Immortals will need a leader to get the detachment +1 to hit, and the Royal Warden is cheap. So it still might be a good match, especially with Assault.
- Warriors are completely pointless. No way is their statline worth 12pts. Especially when, for just 2pts more, we can get Immortals who have better T, Svs, WS, BS, and twice the range on their guns.
- It is me or is The Sovereign Coronal enhancement completely insane? It says that every Necron unit within 6" counts as being led by a Necron Character. Okay. However, there is no requirement whatsoever that the unit be one that is normally eligible for such. Wraiths? Led by a Necron character. Triarch Preatorians? Led by a Necron character. Doomsday Arks? Led by a Necron character. Doomscythes? Led by a Necron character.
It seems all we need to do is give it to a Hexmark or Technomancer with Lone Operative, put it in the centre of our army, and we can basically recreate 8th edition Space Marines.
- I'm really excited to try out the various generic HQs. My first instinct is just have a lot of Immortals, each led by an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek.
- Speaking of which, our Crypteks all seem pretty good . . . with the exception of the Psychotherapist. Even if his aura didn't make enemies less fearful, he just doesn't seem to add anything. I think he needs to be able to apply a much more substantial debuff to be a viable choice.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Hecate wrote: Well, the Immortals will need a leader to get the detachment +1 to hit, and the Royal Warden is cheap. So it still might be a good match, especially with Assault.
True. Warden might counter the -1, then swing it to +1 with Heavy.
And yeah, Warriors seem not as good a choice as Immortals. Unfortunately for me, I have 40 Warriors and only 5 Immortals. Ack! Probably getting at least 10 more.
My first game will have 2x 10 Warriors, 1 squad per weapon option (even though I suspect the longer-ranged one will be kind of crap), plus 1x 5 Immortals with gauss. Give them all a chance before deciding what I wanna do going forward.
Hecate wrote:*snip* I'm gonna try running a Royal Warden with some Immortals. Gives them Assault AND Heavy. So if there's a choice target, Heavy lets me hit on 2+. If I need to move, Assault will let me advance if needed and still shoot.
*snip*
Hit roll modifiers are still capped at +/-1 maximum, so our detachment rule provides that innately. Assault is very useful though. When new detachments start coming out I think the Warden will go up in value quite a bit.
usernamesareannoying wrote:What is tank shock?
*snip*
A new core rulebook stratagem. 1 Vehicle can roll to cause MW when it charges, rolling a number of dice based on it's melee strength characteristic.
usernamesareannoying wrote: are we sure warriors are pointless?
i mean there has to be some benefit to the sheer survivability of them.
Surely whatever they gain from their improved RPs is lost by the fact they have a worse toughness and save?
Not to mention the fact that their only worthwhile weapon means they have to put themselves in both assault and rapid-fire range of their enemies.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
usernamesareannoying wrote: are we sure warriors are pointless?
i mean there has to be some benefit to the sheer survivability of them.
Surely whatever they gain from their improved RPs is lost by the fact they have a worse toughness and save?
Not to mention the fact that their only worthwhile weapon means they have to put themselves in both assault and rapid-fire range of their enemies.
Remains to bb seen how often t and save really affects and how much more wounds(=harder to wipe out denying res) matters.
Mortals, anti-infantry etc ignore T and save for example.
Couple necron games i have seen 10th so far 20 warriors been obnoxious to remove
I can see 20 Warriors being a pain to remove with the aid of a Technomancer and a Lord/Overlord. 20 models with a 4+/5+++ that regain d6 models each turn is nothing to sneeze at.
However, I'm just not convinced it's worth it to go that route.
With a character, 20 Warriors within 12" do 10 wounds to a unit of Marines. 20 Immortals do ~14 wounds at 24". That's a pretty substantial increase and at twice the range.
Granted, those Immortals will be less durable as you'll be splitting the characters rather than attaching both to the same unit. However, I think you'll gain far more by inflicting damage than by trying to regenerate incoming damage.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Main things I'm wondering about are if the 3+/4++/5+++ lychguard are as unkillable as they look and if the scarab swarms are a genuine anti-tank tool. I will likely be playing against an Iron Hands list so I will have plenty of opportunity to test both of those things.
As a guard player death marks are the main thing that worries me. They finally seem like solid character assassins and appear to have good anti MEQ firepower.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
I can see 20 Warriors being a pain to remove with the aid of a Technomancer and a Lord/Overlord. 20 models with a 4+/5+++ that regain d6 models each turn is nothing to sneeze at.
However, I'm just not convinced it's worth it to go that route.
With a character, 20 Warriors within 12" do 10 wounds to a unit of Marines. 20 Immortals do ~14 wounds at 24". That's a pretty substantial increase and at twice the range.
Granted, those Immortals will be less durable as you'll be splitting the characters rather than attaching both to the same unit. However, I think you'll gain far more by inflicting damage than by trying to regenerate incoming damage.
Just watched the art of war Necrons vs space marines, Richard's Necron list went all in on on a nearly unkillable warrior blob, and to be fair it mostly worked. The part where hellblaster shot at them with Oaths up, and ended up taking more wounds than the warriors was super amusing. The drawback was that it was such a large investment that his offense really suffered, Once John adjusted (IE started ignoring the warriors) Richard spent the rest of the game on his backfoot. The necrons lists mobility also sucked, and Richard struggled to get local superiority away from his warrior blob.
I think the lessons are twofold, going all in on warrior blob is probably a bad idea, arguably a worse idea than not supporting them at all. Second is that necrons have a lot of tricks for mobility, and your going to need them. When an space marine army on foot can outmaneuver you, your going to get absolutely cooked by a more mobile army like Eldar or Tau. Also I'm not sure what silvertide would have done against Orks or a melee focused bug army.
So I’m wondering about cryptothralls. They join a unit and becomes a part of it. So if I take the first wounds on the thralls and they both die, during reanimation can I bring then back since the ”unit” is still alive?
KhazModan wrote: So I’m wondering about cryptothralls. They join a unit and becomes a part of it. So if I take the first wounds on the thralls and they both die, during reanimation can I bring then back since the ”unit” is still alive?
Main things I'm wondering about are if the 3+/4++/5+++ lychguard are as unkillable as they look and if the scarab swarms are a genuine anti-tank tool. I will likely be playing against an Iron Hands list so I will have plenty of opportunity to test both of those things.
I think a detailed battle report is less impactful than just saying the flat truth here: one of the shieldguard units took and survived an entire round of Tau shooting. This unit doesn't do much other than stand on objectives and survive, but good lord does it do that.
I think the doomstalker is what it looks like, just flatly worse than taking three heavy destroyers. Can't hide, can't survive, damage isn't that impressive even when they do survive. Admittedly getting hit with railguns makes it difficult for anything to survive but if I had brought destroyers instead they could have hidden better and would have done more damage.
The reanimator met much the same fate, though I don't feel quite as bad about it. It does have the same problem it always had where it's a different toughness profile than the things that it's buffing so there isn't really a choice in what to shoot at. The reanimator died turn one before getting any reanimates and the lychguard really didn't need it anyways. The opponent conceded turn four as it was clear I was running away hard with the objectives even though I had barely killed any of their units (the scarabs managed to charge in and explode on Shadowsun to score Assassinate though, which was hilarious).
(I should note that this opponent had three hammerheads and the hammerhead named character so my big vehicles getting obliterated isn't entirely a surprise)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/19 08:06:55
Hmm, okay. I love the Doomstalker models, and have 2 of them. Pity they didn't do great. The datasheets gave me the impression they were slightly better than in 9th. I have 1 Heavy Lokhust, but I really don't like how the model looks.
Gonna try both in my first game on Saturday.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Curious about Scarabs. Their self-destruct thing is once per fight phase. I assume this is either yours or your opponent's fight phase? And one Scarab Swarm per unit at a time...
Thinking it might make more sense to take units of 3, rather than 6. They seem pretty trash apart from self-destructing. And 0 OC...
They're really cheap, but I don't know if they're even worth it. The self-destruct is the start of the phase, so maybe hide until you can move and charge a tasty unit, self-destruct 1, hope at least 1 survives the fight, self-destruct 1 more in opponent's turn... Unit of 3 seems more logical.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/19 08:49:43
Arachnofiend wrote: The reanimator met much the same fate, though I don't feel quite as bad about it. It does have the same problem it always had where it's a different toughness profile than the things that it's buffing so there isn't really a choice in what to shoot at.
You have to jam the Reanimator behind a line of sight blocking ruin, then play around its (massive) 12" aura. You no longer need line of sight to the unit to reanimate them. So it is terrain dependent and I can see a world where you take two to cover both table halves.
Hecate wrote: Hmm, okay. I love the Doomstalker models, and have 2 of them. Pity they didn't do great. The datasheets gave me the impression they were slightly better than in 9th. I have 1 Heavy Lokhust, but I really don't like how the model looks.
Gonna try both in my first game on Saturday.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Curious about Scarabs. Their self-destruct thing is once per fight phase. I assume this is either yours or your opponent's fight phase? And one Scarab Swarm per unit at a time...
Thinking it might make more sense to take units of 3, rather than 6. They seem pretty trash apart from self-destructing. And 0 OC...
They're really cheap, but I don't know if they're even worth it. The self-destruct is the start of the phase, so maybe hide until you can move and charge a tasty unit, self-destruct 1, hope at least 1 survives the fight, self-destruct 1 more in opponent's turn... Unit of 3 seems more logical.
I'm planning on always taking units of 3 scarabs. They can keep up with just about anything, and charging in alongside other units that also do a bit of MW damage doesnt seem too bad - either the tank shocking Spyder or a Skorpekh Lord and retinue would do. They should have a decent chance of regenerating as they are always going to be the lesser target compared to anything they are stood next to.
And yes, at the start of any fight phase - so they get to blow up before strikes first units get to attack (once per Scarab unit).
I'm not a fan of 10th ed Necrons to be honest, bit disappointed. Sure we have some good units and good rules but I really dislike the push to include as many characters as possible and have the detachment rule basically rely on having loads of characters in your army. I can't stress how much I dislike this frankly, it is neither fun or fluffy IMO.
Also they ruined Flayed Ones after finally making them good in 9th after decades. Now they're overpriced compared to the rest of the faction and can no longer be taken in squads of 20. One of those two things need to change for them to be any good
Feels like Necrons can play withouth character joining weak units.
Don't use warriors and pay premium to upgrade their BS. Immortals have BS 3+.
Lotz of Skorpekh Destroyers with Stealth enhancement from Lord as only joining character.
Technomancer and Hex Destroyer have Lone operatives. They can boost units with their auras sovereign cronal from enhancement and aura for canoptek units.
Heck. Ghost Arks 125 are much better than 10 Warriors for 120. The only requirement is to put one character (technomancer, hex) inside to field two of them. (dedicated transport rule)
Flayed Ones can infiltrate. How is it bad? Two 5 model units can block enemy first turn move. (if You start You can try to move and charge someting with them turn 1)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/19 17:53:29
