Death to the False Emperor! Chaos Space Marines in 10th

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**Semper**

So I'll kick this off.

Ill leave the unit rating to better minds (aka those with more time to do it).

I'm trying to put together a very quick TAC list, 1000pts. I've not played a game yet or even read the rules 🤣!

So far, I'm looking at:

Master of Possession with Elixur
Huron Blackheart

10 Cultists (Grenade Launcher)

5 Chosen (PP, PF, 2 combi weapons), Undivided
5 Chose (same as above), Nurgle
10 Possessed (icon), Slaanesh
5 Noise Marines (BM, 3xSB, 1 SB & PF)

2 Obliterators, Tzeentch.

I believe Huron is a fairly decent mobility support with his redeploy ACS one time movement buff, although I am considering other units

The possessed offer a big threat that can clap a few units and punch up against more.
The master of Possession will support the possessed with a bit of durability, character sniping and also force battleshock, whilst giving a little movement boost.

The chosen offer flexible reactions and some mid damage output.

Cultists are a little chaff but sticky objectives might make them a pest.

The noise marines bring a bit of cheap firepower but also can force a BS test.

Finally, the Oblits can help with anti tank or anything else lol.

**xeen**

I said this in the other thread, but I think Tzeentch Oblits will be very good. I am going to take 4 of them as resurrecting one a turn could be very hard for many opponents to deal with.

I also think a 20 man squad of Cultists lead by the Dark Commune could actually be good. Go Tzeentch for the lethal hits on 5+ and it makes the auto guns pretty useful against anything that doesn't have a 2+ save, and they get a 5++ from the commune I believe, which will make removing them at least take some effort. If only there was a d3+3 resurrection strat. I hope when the codex comes out there is a lost and the damned detachment focusing on all the non-CSM units. I think that could be really fun.

**Semper**

I think that I would like to try a more cultist focused force, especially with a small Abaddon support blob.

I want to explore some of the unnamed HQ options a bit more, especially to see if the DP has any real legs on a pt for pt basis.

**Wibe**

There is several things I'm exited for with the new CSM.
I am definitely going to field a unit of 4 Obliterators with mark of Nurgle.
The stratagem DARK OBSCURATION is activated after the enemy targets them (wasting all the shots!), and then the rest of the enemies need to be within 12 to shot at them.

I will also try out the cheap noise marines, I feel like they punch way above their weightclass comming in at 85 pts for a squad of 5.

And I will experiment with a 10 man unit of slaanesh possessed with a MOP running in from reserves. They will hopefully punish, or keep the enemies scared of going out on the flanks.

I am somewhat disappointed that Abaddon is an auto include. Not because he's that great, but because none else really can compete. Unless maybe a chaos lord of Nurgle in terminator armour with a terminator unit, to spam DARK OBSCURATION on two units pr turn...

**Arachnofiend**

Wibe wrote:
The stratagem DARK OBSCURATION is activated after the enemy targets them (wasting all the shots!), and then the rest of the enemies need to be within 12 to shot at them.

"Can't be targeted" from Dark Obscuration starts after the first unit has already targeted. The first unit doesn't lose it's targeting and can (indeed, must) continue shooting the Oblits, but no further units would be able to shoot them.

**Wibe**

I thought so as well, until I read the rules commentary pdf. Page 5:

"Eligible Target (no longer eligible): If a unit that was an eligible target of an attack or charge when it was selected stops being an eligible target for that attack or charge (for example, because a rule enables it to make an out-of-phase move that takes it out of range), the attacking or charging unit can select new targets for those attacks or that charge. See Just After."

I see I forgot mentioning placing them in such a position that the enemy hopefully would move into a position where they could only target the unit with the stratagem, and then effectively wasting the shots.

**Arcanis161**

So, you can take CSM without taking any actual CSM (aside from vehicles).

The real question is, is that a good idea? I'm guessing the answer is "No" simply due to the Buffs the different characters give?

**DreadfullyHopeful**

Arcanis161 wrote:
So, you can take CSM without taking any actual CSM (aside from vehicles).

The real question is, is that a good idea? I'm guessing the answer is "No" simply due to the Buffs the different characters give?

Rather, why would you even want to do that ? The stats aren't that good for anything beyond objective camping and throwing cheap bodies around. Far from what would be a "true" LatD army.

**Arachnofiend**

Accursed Cultists with Dark Communes seem pretty potent to me. Tzeentch Cultist Mobs with 5+ lethal hits are an interesting idea, too. I don't think there's quite enough support for a full LatD army but a Word Bearers-style army where most of what you have is mortal cults is probably a real thing.

**DreadfullyHopeful**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Accursed Cultists with Dark Communes seem pretty potent to me. Tzeentch Cultist Mobs with 5+ lethal hits are an interesting idea, too. I don't think there's quite enough support for a full LatD army but a Word Bearers-style army where most of what you have is mortal cults is probably a real thing.

Oh I agree. A cultist heavy army Word Bearer style is totally doable ! I'd even say the biggest obstacle to me doing so is how mono-pause the Accursed Cultist is. Even when you have just two units of them side by side it's less "attack of the cultists" and more "attack of the clones"

**ArcaneHorror**

Is it just me, or is the option to give a power fist to a Terminator Lord absent on the app?

**Semper**

Had my first game with the opening list. Eldar... not a hugely optimized list but packing a crap ton of Brightlances.

They had a Wave Serpent, Guardians, War Walker, Viper, Farseer, 5 Wraithguard, a Wraithlord, two units of wind runners and a couple of spirit seers.

Seemed to do well and I tabled the Eldar turn 3 with a 1VP lead.

We went up to 1100pts, so I added 3 bikers to my list.

The noise marines were useful but the Blastmaster was definitely the star as I think the sonic blasters did a total of 4 wounds in 3 turns (against Eldar jet bikes and one turn shooting a war walker) whilst the BM did about 15 across the war walker, bikes and a wave serpent. Worth their 85pts imho.

The obliterators I need to test more. Their shooting bounced the a wave serpent for two turns only doing 4 wounds, though my opponent did get lucky with their 5++. I ran them as Tzeentch as I felt the sustained hits and the ability to ressurrect one was interesting.

Possessed were incredible and really brought it home; however, they do struggle against high toughness targets, even with lethal hits. I burnt their Dev wounds to 1-turn KO the wraithlord. It took 8 of the possessed two rounds of combat to chew through 4 Wraithguard even with lethal hits though; not an unbalanced result I hasten to add, just a note. Possessed were slaanesh, very useful with them.

Chosen I have mixed feelings about. For the extra 15pts, on paper they seem better than regular legionnaires but they didn't do much at all other than absorb firepower. Absorbed a little fire but ultimately their damage output and resilience were very... middling? I guess the Eldar did take out one of my units in turn 1 with brightlance death. I had one nurgle and one undivided unit.

Huron was my MVP, though I did get lucky with his 4++ against five, yes five, successive brightlance shots lmao. His redeploy is exceptionally useful and massively mitigated my opponents ability to alpha strike. With a melee squad, the free move is also useful. His sweep also devastated the guardians in one turn of combat.

Bikers were good. They were quick and helped get to objectives and secondaries, though the eldar player largely ignored them as they had 10 possessed and a MOP in their lines to worry about quite quickly. I went for the bikers over Raptors as they were tougher. I used them as Undivided.

**Kangarupe**

If someone could give me some solid citations that reinforce the concept of Abaddon giving his bodyguard all 4 of his marks (and thus oodles of sustained and lethal hits) that would be appreciated. It seems too strong but I see a lot of people saying this is the case online (reddit and such…) But I cant really see in the rules where he would pass on those mark bonuses.

**tneva82**

Unit is considered to have all the keywords all the models have. So any ability that depends on unit(not model) have keyword works.

Now I don't play CSM and don't know rule top of my head but as long as benefit doesn't read "all models in unit with keyword X get Y" or similar it works. Key distinction is that for it to work it has to refer MODEL. Not unit.

Model gives keywords to unit but not to other models.

**Xyxel**

Abaddon can join unit with any Chaos Marks, but he does not grant all 4 marks to such unit models (or other Keywords) No such special rule on him, or Leader rule.

Would Legionaires with mark of Nurge obtain Tzeentch keyword from Abaddon? Of course not. That would be ... Heresy! : )

**tneva82**

Models don't pet keyword but unit counts as having all keywords each model have. So yes if abbadon leads nurgle legionaries UNIT counts as also having khorne, slaanesh and tzeentch marks.

Thus any rule that buffs un#t with mark of tzeentch works. Rule that requires model to have mark of tzeentch would only applw to abbadon.

As the rule says unit with following keyword it works.

**Xyxel**

Does "Attached Unit" get all keywords from attached "Leader" then ?

So unit with Abaddon would get "warlord" keyword also? Epic hero also?

**p5freak**

A unit has all the keywords of all its models. An attached unit is treated as a single unit for all rules purposes. Individual models however dont get all keywords. Abaddon doesnt transfer tzeentch to nurgle terminator models.

**tneva82**

Xyxel wrote:
Does "Attached Unit" get all keywords from attached "Leader" then ?

So unit with Abaddon would get "warlord" keyword also? Epic hero also?

Unit has all the keyworas yes.

There's no keyword warlord.

As funny as it sounds yes epic hero. Not that there' in game rule that applies to epic heroes. If you are trying to claim max 1 that fails as restriction is during list writing while Abbadon is put to unit post-list writing.

**Xyxel**

Ok, so by that logic Legionaires would also get "terminator" keyword from leading Abaddon.

Select one Character model from your army to be your Warlord – this will be the leader of your army – and make a note of this on your Army Roster. Your Warlord gains the Warlord keyword.

page 56

With all stratagems for specific Marks allowed 10 Terminators with Abaddon sounds awesome : )

**tneva82**

Yes. Not that unit gets much benefit from terminator keyword.

There's reason abbadon + 10 terminators so popular. Or why having single fly/psychic model in unit has drawback at exposing whole unit to anti-fly or anti-psyker abilities.

**Kangarupe**

Thanks for clarity on the marks all. It struck me as quite overpowered. However in my last 1k game, my 5x Termie + Abby unit failed to dispatch a simple Intercessor squad with shooting lol, so maybe it's not *horrifically* overpowered.

**Arcanis161**

What are people taking for anti-big things? I would have thought Defilers would be a decent pick because of their good Melee, decent shooting, and their ability to move over a bunch of terrain (due to the new terrain rules), but everything I'm hearing is that they’re mediocre at best and Venomcrawlers are rated better...for some reason. Oblits I can see, but what else?

**Xyxel**

Undivided Havocs with lascannons and Obliterators?
With sustained hits from Dark Pacts and 1-rerolls.

Possesed with devastating strikes for close combat?

**Semper**

Xyxel wrote:
Undivided Havocs with lascannons and Obliterators?
With sustained hits from Dark Pacts and 1-rerolls.

I have no tried the Havocs yet.

In terms of the Obliterators, I think it's a toss up between the re-roll 1 to hit for Undivided or the Tzeentch with the sustained and the survivability the strat can bring. I can see a bigger unit (or a smaller one in a smaller game) benefitting from the Tzeentch as you'll likely be around to resurrect a model and the weight will get a good boost from the easier sustained.

Smaller units will likely benefit from the enhanced reliability as will the unit if you're going tank hunting and wanting the harder hitting, fewer shots. So perhaps opponent would dictate...

It's the re-roll 1's vs 1CP revive and 5+ sustained.

Outside dark horse could be Nurgle Marked. The stealth/no shoot from over 12" combined with giving their lower strength profiles lethal hits on a 5+ could be interesting.

Xyxel wrote:
Possesed with devastating strikes for close combat?

Literally devastating. They've killed anything they've charged when the devastating is happening but they suffer against tough units otherwise so Lethal hits are probably necessary. Otherwise sustained (as you'll likely run as Slannesh, so you'll get them on 5+).

**ArcaneHorror**

Are Rhinos worth taking? I've heard that some of the new rules, such as terrain rules, make them pointless.

**Mad_Proctologist**

Anyone try a cultist heavy list yet? Typed this one out pretty quick and with over 200 bodies on the table f
it definitely has swarming potential. While it will probably get shot off the table it's likely to dominate the objective game in the early turns lmk what you all think.

Spoiler:

**whembly**

So... couple of surprising things.

1) Possessed marked with Khorne can do some work with massed lethal hits on 5+, in addition to devastating wounds. I was able to pull off a charge with 5 man unit to Mortarian, and they knocked him down to 4 wounds left. O.o

2) Hadescannon Forgefield, w/ plasma cannon, marked with Tzeench did amazing work. Was able to massively whittle down a large squad of deathshroud in one turn.

3) Hellbrutes seems worth it, giving units both darkpacts (lethal/sustained).

4) I'm going to try a six 5-man Noisemarines, all kitted out to try to leverage the Hellbrute (lethal/sustained darkpacts. They seem like a great take-all-comers unit.

5) Anyone else finding surprisingly effective CSM units?

**locarno24**

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Anyone try a cultist heavy list yet? Typed this one out pretty quick and with over 200 bodies on the table f
it definitely has swarming potential. While it will probably get shot off the table it's likely to dominate the objective game in the early turns lmk what you all think.

Spoiler:

For The Dark Gods!!!1!!1!!(1990 points)
Chaos Space Marines
Strike Force (2000 points)
Slaves to Darkness

CHARACTER

Dark Apostle (85 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 1x Dark Apostle
• Warlord
• 1x Accursed crozius
1x Bolt pistol
• 2x Dark Disciple
• 2x Close combat weapon

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
13x Close combat weapon
13x Cultist firearm
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
13x Close combat weapon
13x Cultist firearm
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
13x Close combat weapon
13x Cultist firearm
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 13x Autopistol
13x Brutal assault weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 13x Autopistol
13x Brutal assault weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

Cultist Mob (110 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 19x Chaos Cultist
• 13x Autopistol
13x Brutal assault weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Close combat weapon
2x Cultist grenade launcher
2x Flamer
2x Heavy stubber

OTHER DATASHEETS

Accursed Cultists (190 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Accursed Cultists (190 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Accursed Cultists (190 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Khorne
• 10x Mutant
• 10x Blasphemous appendages
• 6x Torment
• 6x Hideous mutations

Helbrute (155 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Twin lascannon

Helbrute (155 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Twin lascannon

Helbrute (155 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Twin lascannon

Traitor Guardsmen Squad (70 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Traitor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Corrupted pistol
• 9x Traitor Guardsmen
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Cultist grenade launcher
6x Lasgun
1x Meltagun
1x Plasma gun

Traitor Guardsmen Squad (70 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Traitor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Corrupted pistol
• 9x Traitor Guardsmen
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Cultist grenade launcher
6x Lasgun
1x Meltagun
1x Plasma gun

Traitor Guardsmen Squad (70 points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Traitor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Corrupted pistol
• 9x Traitor Guardsmen
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Cultist grenade launcher
6x Lasgun
1x Meltagun
1x Plasma gun

Things to note:
1) unlike most units, traitor guard are actually allowed to field a matched trio of specialist weapons. This might go away at some point but whilst you can it's the best way to use them.
2) don't sleep on Dark Commune as a Cultist Mob leader. They're less points than a Dark Apostle and give the squad a 5++ invulnerable. Plus, their Dark ritual gives +1 to hit AND +1 to wound AND advance and charge. Yes it only lasts 1 turn but how long do you really expect Cultists to hang around once the stabbing starts? Also, the bonus to hit and wound applies to shooting too if you want to attach a commune to the tzeenchian gunline units instead.

**Kangarupe**

Arcanis161 wrote:
What are people taking for anti-big things? I would have thought Defilers would be a decent pick because of their good Melee, decent shooting, and their ability to move over a bunch of terrain (due to the new terrain rules), but everything I'm hearing is that they’re mediocre at best and Venomcrawlers are rated better...for some reason. Oblits I can see, but what else?

I had a 4x lascannon havoc squad, land raider with soulshatters + heavy bolter, a lascannon + krak missile launcher helbrute and abby all clustered together at the start of my game yesterday, between the combined auras of abby’s hit re-rolls and helbrute’s dual dark pacts, I got first turn and shot a 555 point Knight Tyrant off the table. It was a stellar combination and one thats going to be hard to give up going forward.