Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So here is a new thread for 10th Edition.



To kick it off I will state some things I said in the previous thread:

1. A unit of Rubric flamers with Ahriman is basically a must include. Using twist of fate it can basically delete almost any unit, especially if that unit is on an objective. Interestingly, I also have been putting a soul reaper cannon in my unit as the 10th man. I did this because I only owned 8 flamers with the sorcerer, so needed a tenth man, but it is good as the flamers are no longer assault, so you can always fire the soul reaper at the same time. You only lose d6 shots to gain 6 shots with better strength and devastating wounds. It adds a bit of longer range punch and +1 to wound from Ahriman is still good on it.

2. Scarab Occult Terminators are bananas good. The -1 to wound is so much better than All is Dust for these guys, and I have had them tank over 20 wounds due to that rule so far.

3. I have not played them yet, but forge fiends might be really good. I watched a TTT battle report which an ork unit that had the same ability shot the Tau units, and it basically crippled the primary damage dealer. Even against BS3 units, I think there is a lot of utility there. And they are 10 points cheaper then Hellbrutes.

4. The winged daemon prince. I know everyone is jazzed for the foot one with-1 to hit, but the speed and utility of the winged one with the ability to go anywhere on the board within 9" every turn is really good. It also lets you put doombolt basically anywhere on the table. I might bring one of each.


So this is to kick off tenth! Praise be to Tzeentch.

Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?

Lorex wrote:
Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?

I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.

Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.

Errata out today for the cards only (not the printable PDFs):

Cabal of Sorcerers Army Rule – Temporal Surge
Add additional sentence to read:‘If it does, that unit is not eligible to declare a charge this turn.

This could explain that recent poster that thought they could charge after using this, they might have been reading the card.

’Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators – Ranged Weapons, WarpsmiteAdd ‘[PSYCHIC]’.

I'm very happy with non disc Infantry only TSons which was the first in game attempt I've made. No Magnus, no MVB. Gives more cabal points to play with and no good targets for their anti-tank weapons.

I was pleasantly surprised at the various smites on the HQs and squad leaders. But, do be careful with the Scarab Occult leader as he has a pistol smite, so needs to choose between that and his combi-bolter. Similarly the HQs have gun pistols and non pistol smites so can't cast and shoot. The Rubric leader and TSon Sorcerer however have a gun pistol and a pistol smite so can go wild with a bit of blasting from both.

 xeen wrote:

Lorex wrote:
Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?

I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.

Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.

Thanks for the answer.
I was thinking of a infantry support not back line support.
So Hellbrut sounds nice.
What do you think of the rubrics with flamers?
Im abit worried that GW might go back to weapon points abit later. And in a 1000pts I dont know if I will have support for a unit with flamers. But is 20 rubric with bolters good to have?

Lorex wrote:

 xeen wrote:

Lorex wrote:
Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?

I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.

Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.

Thanks for the answer.
I was thinking of a infantry support not back line support.
So Hellbrut sounds nice.
What do you think of the rubrics with flamers?
Im abit worried that GW might go back to weapon points abit later. And in a 1000pts I dont know if I will have support for a unit with flamers. But is 20 rubric with bolters good to have?

So, the flamers are awesome, especially with Ahriman, but even with exalteds would be good. You want to bring a 10 man of them in basically every list. Personally for Rubrics I like 5 with all the upgrades over ten for bolters. The bolters are ok, but really need the strats to make them good, and you probably want to use them on the SoT. Also you get a whole lot more out of a 5 man with a normal character sorcerer then adding extra guys for about the same price. 1000 points is hard for TS to build, because our Cabals don't scale and we need lots of characters. At 1000 points I would probably bring a 10 man flamer with character, 5 man Rubric, 5 man SoT and fill out the rest with more characters or Dreads or DP. At 1000 points you are going to rock paper scissor hard depending on your opponent.

So I have been playing this game for 30+ years since I was 11 years old in Second Edition. Don't worry about what GW will do in the future. Things are going to change. That is a certain. Units get better, worse you have no control. But I think we have at least a year before they make any massive change like charging for weapons again, so you should be fine. And hopefully by then you will have more units in your collection to offset any changes.

.

Kind of based on what you are saying here is an example 1000 point army I would use

Ahriman - 110
10 x Rubrics with flamers - 190
Sorceror -85
10 x Rubrics with bolters, soulreaper etc. - 190
TS Dreadnought with twin LC and CC weapon -145
Scarab Occult Terminators - 205
Tgors - 65

Total 990

So you put Ahriman with the flamers, the Sorceor with the 10 bolter guys (he gives Lethal hits and cannot be targeted outside of 18') as your main front line, supported by the Terminators and Dread. The Tgors hold the back objective and try to general cabal points.

Based on what you said, I assume you have 20 Rubrics and an hellbrute. If you also own the combat partol that nets you the SoT, a infernal master (just use at the Sorceror) and the Tgors. You just need to get Ahriman, and the older model can be found pretty cheap on Ebay.

I lost my first game of 10th.
However, I've won the others, against SM (88-34, tabled), Necrons (82-31, tabled), Chaos Knights (80-22, tabled), and SM again (95-43, tabled).

My list is:
Magnus
Ahriman + 10 Rubric flamers
Exalted Sorcerer (LoFL) + 10 Rubric flamers
Sorcerer (Vortex) + 10 Rubric flamers
Termie Sorcerer (Crystal) + 10 Termies
10x Tzaangors
Rhino

I just keep my army in Devastating Wounds mode because it's easier to remember and because bypassing saves via mortals is better than the lethal hits. Since everything seems to get cover, and all the best targets have a 2+/4++ anyhow, mortals do a lot more work.

The Termies have Lethal Hits thanks to the leader, the strat gives them Psychic bolters, and standing next to Magnus makes them hit on 2s and wound on 5s into big things...which don't have an armour save because of sorcery. My last game I deleted a Redemptor dread T1 and then a Gladiator T2.

The other neat combo I've worked out is triple overwatch. Spend 1CP to overwatch with flamers. Use LoFL to overwatch again for 6 sorcery points and no CP. Use Ahriman to overwatch AGAIN for free.
I think it's a good use of 6 sorcery points, and if you'd rather use Ahriman to get a better ritual, doing it 2x is still quite nasty.

Speaking of Ahriman, the +1 to wound combos very well with the ignores armour sorcery to make his unit quite able to stand on its own apart from the rest of the army. I had a War Dog charge into the unit, and a combination of auto-hitting overwatch from flamers that reroll some wounds and then close combat that ignore saves killed the thing in his turn, allowing my unit to do whatever it wanted in my turn without being tied up.

I like the Vortex on the Sorcerer, spices up his psychic shooting to be able to kill Marines for each failed save, and Sustained Hits 3 is just wacky.

I prefer the Exalted Sorcerer on foot for his resurrection ability, and I stick that unit into the Rhino. Losing a model in the explosion is much less scary when it just gets back up.

I'm considering swapping the Tzaangors for Spawn, they're the same points and the Spawn seem a bit more survivable (W8 T5 Sv4+/5++ vs W10 T4 Sv6+/6++). Although the extra cabal point is nice. The larger footprint from 10 models is something I'm not sure about....easier to screen out deep strike, harder to get into cover or to get into another table quarter....

Yalls thoughts on Vortex beasts? Seems pretty great to me and it's making it hard to not put them in every list xD

Overwatch has an extra once per turn restriction. I don’t think you can bypass that.

Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

tneva82 wrote:
Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.

But Phase and Turn are not the same.

It could do with an FAQ, for sure, but as written Overwatch has the normal restriction (once per phase) and an extra one (once per turn). You can ignore one restriction-but nothing lets you ignore the other one.

Hello with the new errata : ’Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators – Ranged Weapons, WarpsmiteAdd ‘[PSYCHIC]’.
Does that mean than rubric and scarab occult weapons have now psychic and get all the time devastating wound if you wish?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.

It gives allowance for PHASE limit. Not TURN limit.

You　can't use same stratagem more than once per PHASE. Ritual overrides that.

You can't overwatch more than once per TURN. Ritual doesn't override that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

taetrius67 wrote:
Hello with the new errata : ’Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators – Ranged Weapons, WarpsmiteAdd ‘[PSYCHIC]’.
Does that mean than rubric and scarab occult weapons have now psychic and get all the time devastating wound if you wish?

It's just warpsmite. Spell of unit leader.

Btw this is errata for physical cards. Pdf was correct all the time.

The tarantulas battery from astra militarum specifically says "you can target this unit with the fire overwatch Stratagem for 0cp.and can do so even if you have already used that Stratagem on a different unit this phase"

So there is definitely rules in the game than let you overwatch twice while referencing phase not turn so I'd think we can probably do so as well

tneva82 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.

It gives allowance for PHASE limit. Not TURN limit.

You　can't use same stratagem more than once per PHASE. Ritual overrides that.

You can't overwatch more than once per TURN. Ritual doesn't override that.

Ok so explain this one to me. It's an identical situation and wording.

The Necron Hexmark says, "Once per turn, one unit from your army with this ability can be targeted with the Fire Overwatch Stratagem for 0CP, even if you have already used that Stratagem on a different unit this phase."

The explicit permission to use the strat multiple times per phase overrides the explicit restriction that OW can only be used once per turn.

Clearly, the Hexmark's ability works. And since the wording is the same, the ritual also works.

I have the feeling that the sentence in Overwatch is supposed to be "This stratagem cannot be used on the same unit more than once per turn." or "A unit cannot benefit from this stratagem more than once per turn." Because that would make all of the abilities which talk about "per phase" interact with Overwatch in a reasonable manner.

Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?

After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.

Thoughts?

A.T. wrote:
Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?

After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.

Thoughts?

Well, theirs two uses I can think of:

1) teleporting a flamer brick into range fir w crisping.

2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.

A.T. wrote:
Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?

After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.

Thoughts?

I took mine thinking I'd use it for an objective grab or quick reposition for saving them/stopping opponent.

What I have found to be doing most games is starting terms on board and turn 1 shoving them in the middle as a brick that I play around

xerxeskingofking wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?

After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.

Thoughts?

Well, theirs two uses I can think of:

1) teleporting a flamer brick into range fir w crisping.

2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.

Flamers was the classic use but Ahrimann is such a sweet buff for flamers...guess i need. 2 flamer units?

xerxeskingofking wrote:
2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.

That is how I had been running it, but with the unit on the board by the time it had taken fire and absorbed a charge there wasn't much left to get out of melee.
Perhaps because I have been seeing more marines and no so much gaunts and similar chaff.

Well had my third game of tenth v. IG.

My list was as follows
Ahriman
10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Dreadnought LC/ML
Land Raider
Term Sorcerer
10 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with flamers
DP with wings

The IG had two basilisks, a Dorn, Tank Com russ, a russ, a bunch of Krieg death riders, death strike missile, and a load of Krieg infantry.

We used the old tempest deck because it is hard to find the new deck as it is sold out everywhere and I don't want to pay an up charge for it on ebay. (the tempest deck is still usable, just change moral to battleshock and remove the card that had stuff happen in the psychic phase)

I went first

Thoughts on Units

Ahriman w/ 10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper: as previously mentions this is a must take. This guys put in work both shooting and overwatch to kill infantry trying to take an objective. Ahriman's ability to use Twist of Fate for free is so good. I started these guys in the landraider as I was worried about indirect shooting, but I think that was a mistake because I don't think you get Cabal Points if they are in a transport and that was 4 less I had both turn 1 and turn 2.

Sorcerer w/ 5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper - I think this is the best way to run bolter rubrics. The Sorcerer adds so much between the lethal hits, no targeting, and his shooting attack is actually quite potent against all but the toughest units. The only problem is this game one got stuck babysitting the home objective (they did get to kill some strategic reserve things) and it is a lot of points to babysit.

Term Sorcerer w. 10 x SoT with all the stuff- this is where I put the crystal and I used it turn one to put them in the midfield on an objective. They are really hard to shift and IG did not have anything that could hurt them in CC, so they just shot and sat on the objective. Personally I think I like two 5 man for three total better than the 10. I felt like most of my eggs were in that basket, and it was hard to hide them for turn 1 and place them well due to unit size. I am going to switch back to 3 x 5 man for the next game. Still use the Term Sorcerer with crystal to put 5 in mid board turn one, but then 2 more out of deep strike for more tactical flexibility. I have discovered in tenth it is much less important to have all the assets on turn 1 for an alpha strike.

5 x SoT - I bring the flamer on these guys because that is what is modeled, and it is not nearly as good as Soul Reaper. Coming out of deep strike in front of the enemy lines is pretty good.

Dreadnought LC/ML- not impressed with this. Its damage output is petty meager, and the Cabal Point rule is nice, but my dreadnought is usually out of position to use it, and the few times I did use it, it basically wouldn't matter. Maybe a CC one, but even then I don't think it is worth its points.

Land Raider- This thing is petty awesome. It is hard to take down, has good AT firepower (especially with twist of fate on the target) and being able to deliver units to CC is cool. It might be a bit overpriced for TS as it doesn't really benefit from any of our rules or strats. I am taking Magnus for my next game so this guy is coming out due to points, but I don't think it is a bad pick.

DP with wings- I really liked his mobility last game, but this game he flew up and killed some infiltrating horses, then got killed turn one when I failed two multi-melta saves (so used the 0 dam start) then took a vanquisher shot to the face (he hit 4+ wounded 2+, then I failed 4++ then failed 4++ with re-roll so a bit unlucky there). My opponent was really worried about the teleporting so really focused on him with his AT as opposed to the LR. I am going to give him a try next to Magnus who will soak up the AT shots and let the DP do his thing.

Hope this is helpful

Also to the questions in the thread prior about the Crystal, I use it to put SoT on the midboard for early scoring (5 or 10). I like that has the main use. You could use it with the flamers, however, I don't think the flamers are as good without Ahriman, and you always want Ahriman anyway, so it would have to be on a second squad, which starts to get pricey. And the rubrics are not nearly as tough as the SoT so if you use it on the flamers they will probably be dead in short order. Plus you would have to pay for a sorcerer to lead them (not efficent as you are wasting the lethal hits and 18' targeting) or bring an exhaled sorcerer, which personally I don't think are as good. I would stick with the SoT personally.

Great write-up. Thanks.

 xeen wrote:
Also to the questions in the thread prior about the Crystal, I use it to put SoT on the midboard for early scoring (5 or 10).

Why wouldn't you just deepstrike the scarabs?

Presumably by early he means t1 right away. Ds can come t2 earliest and midboard might not get to useful spot due to 9" rule without 28% charge.

Also no t1 shooting then.

Fair enough.

Yea. For turn one positioning.