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I read somewhere that a Necron mentioned that in the current state, Aeldari psychic power is a faint shadow of their power back in the war in heaver, but I couldn't find any details more details about it.

Are there any actual feat for their power and why are their psychic power diminished so much?
Is it because they afraid of attracting Slaanesh?

The Warp is far more dangerous to utilise than when the Old Ones were kicking about.
Even trained Psykers are still at risk of turning into a Warp portal or getting possessed by a Daemon.
Throw in the fact that Slaanesh specifically likes to eat Aeldari souls and the various Psykers of the Aeldari have to be double careful.

learningduck wrote:

Are there any actual feat for their power...

Only vaguely. Pre-fall aeldari are barely ever seen in the books outside of a handful of scenes from the phoenix lord novels. Eldar heroes, who are implied to have been at least based on "real" eldar, were able to pull off feats like fighting Khaine at the height of his power and maybe having a non-zero chance of winning.

Their capabilities seemed to at least partially rely on their technology (which is largely psychic in nature), thus you get things like the exterminatus-style weapon from Valedor that can wipe out all the life on a planet (or maybe the entire planet itself? I forget) and requires several craftworld psykers to activate. Some of the super special basically magical eldar artefacts out there were presumably made by eldar using techniques the eldar can no longer replicate. So it's possible that a lot of their "psychic might" was at least partially due to their ability to learn/utilize techniques for creating powerful psychically-operated technology. That is, maybe an individual eldar couldn't wipe out a planet with just his brain, but he could apparently wipe out a planet with just his brain and the device from Valedor.

FWIW, we had a thread a while back where we talked about eldar reincarnation (a thing they did pre-Slaanesh) where we theorized that the reincarnation may have been a mechanism for letting eldar souls grow stronger over time. Basically, the theory was that, because we know eldar and psyker souls last longer in the warp than normal human souls do, it implies that the warp is basically dealing damage over time to the integrity of souls. So maybe eldar reincarnation basically let eldar return to the land of the living with some amount of their previous experience and/or refined psychic power still in-tact (depending on how much they lost while in the warp.) This would in turn mean that they'd be stronger during their new life and thus more likely to live longer and "level up" their souls thus making it possible for them to return even stronger the next time they die and so on and so on. The reason I bring this up is that, during the War in Heaven, the life expectancy for an eldar would theoretically have bene a lot lower than in the subsequent millennia when they were basically unchallenged masters of the galaxy. So if souls "level up" over time, then the most powerful eldar souls might not have existed during the War in Heaven but rather between that time period and "modern" 40k.

... and why are their psychic power diminished so much?
Is it because they afraid of attracting Slaanesh?

Yes. Exactly. Basically, it's implied if not outright stated that an eldar playing around with psychich powers is a surefire way to invite Slaanesh to start chewing on your soul. Craftworlders specifically undergo some sort of process to dim their own psychic senses and put chains on their psychic abilities. These limitations are then removed (at least partially) if and when the craftworlder opts to walk the path of the seer. This is part of the reason the path of the seer is so seductive. Imagine putting a blindfold on when you're a baby, removing it when you're an adult, and then being asked if you want to put the blindfold back on again for the rest of your life.

Drukhari don't have to undergo the same ritual the craftworlders do because living in the webway/being drained by Slaanesh for so long has apparently lead to their psychic abilities atrophying. With rare (illegal in Commorragh) exceptions, they can't use psychic tech even if they want to, with the exception of psychic tech that operates off of their weird pain-drinking powers. Corsairs don't always have the same strict protection in place that craftworlders do, and that's why you had rules like the 7th edition perils of the warp rules where corsairs basically never died outright from perils in the warp, but perils had a really sinister, spooky vibe that made you feel like your psyker was going to need lots of therapy and meditation later. Exodites are interesting because we know they have psykers, and it's not clear what methods they have of avoiding Slaanesh other than a physically-demanding lifestyle. We see a "world singer" in some of the BL novels, but her job seems to mostly boil down to keeping her maiden world's world spirit from throwing a tantrum and triggering volcanic eruptions. The Infinite and the Divine has a "farseer" riding a t-rex, and I'm fairly sure I remember some older short stories depicting exodite psykers as being very similar to craftworld psykers. So maybe a similar tradition to the path of the seer has made its way to at least some exodite worlds.

All that said, if you want an idea of what pre-fall Aeldari could do with their psychic abilities, the best metric is probably to look at what modern eldar can do and crank it up to 11. Some things modenr eldar can do despite their stunted/intentionally limited psychic abilities:

* Heal from critical injuries ("tress of Isha").
* Use the ambient psychic suffering of others to supercharge their own physical abilities including reversing signs of aging/poor health. (Wrinkles go away, skin looks healthier, etc.)
* Manifest psychic fire around their hands that lets them punch through ceramite. (Fire Dragon exarch power from Psychic Awakening.)
* Make people fail to process their movements until after they've happened. Think spooky ghosts that get closer each time the lights flicker. (Karandras; though maaaaybe this is a phoenix lord thing rather than something normal eldar/exarchs can do.)
* Psychic feats. See: Anything Eldrad has done.

In the Phoenix Lord novels, we see Asurmen back when he's still just a dude. The scenes don't go into a ton of detail about his capabilities, but you get the impression he's kind of just some dude. Minimally, he's not telekinetically flying from place to place and conjuring tiny suns to serve as reading lamps. Plus we have modern eldar (such as Shadowseers and Yvraine) who don't seem to need to worry about Slaanesh as much. They're impressive, but they have their limits. Granted, Shadowseers and Yvraine are both tricky examples as their psychic abilities are probably augmented by their respective gods to some degree. You could also make the argument that modern craftworld psykers, though maybe lacking in the raw freedom or raw strength of a pre-fall aeldari, may or may not make up for it thanks to the extremely control they have to use to avoid getting eaten by Slaanesh. So it's possible that a farseer might actually be a more potent psyker than the average pre-fall aeldari, if only because he has to have so much practiced skill when using them.

tldr; We don't know exactly how powerful pre-fall eldar were. They don't seem to have been overtly throwing powers around non-stop, but they were capable of making devices that allowed a handful of psykers to wipe out an entire planet. And yeah, modern aeldari are less powerful psychically because Slaanesh.

I like to go with Adpetus Ridiculous's "Warp-suck hole" theroy:
So- the warp is the great Sea, and like a sea, if you try to drink it all, it'd be bad for you. But, if (like mythological Thor) you're dedicated to trying, you have to have either a REALLY big straw (opening up to the warp/ opening a portal) or you have to suck really hard (using skill vs power).
If you use the big straw, you're going to suck up gribblies you don't want (daemons), but in the short run, you get a lot of seawater.
Using more "suck force", you keep the straw small which will filter out things for you, but it's diffucult in it's own right.
(I know, I know Physicists- a giant straw would require more PSI to vacuum up things than a small one, it's Bricky's imperfect meme analogy, not mine!)
So- long round about way to say: my thoughts is Eldar used to be able to open up to the more stable warp before Slannesh came into being, but now can't because... soul eating. Now they just focus on what they can and use thier knowledge to get crystal arthritis.

Well, we can look to two sources of now dubious canon to get an idea of how The Warp has changed overtime.

The first of course is Realms of Chaos. Here we first learnt that the Warp was once in balance. Suitably gifted souls could bathe in its power, and reincarnate as themself in due course.

Whilst there’s no particular cause given (though it’s been a while) something sent the Warp out of balance, making that reincarnation harder. And that imbalance eventually birthed the Chaos Gods, setting up an endless cycle of psychic feedback. In short, the Gods grew to be able to influence real space, ensuring their particular passions were fed, giving them more power, and thus more influence, arguably preventing balance ever returning.

The second is the original Necron Codex. In short, the war between the C’tan and Old Ones was of a scale so staggering? It kind of broke the warp. Sped along by the Old Ones creating new, psychically potent races, it’s all went horribly wrong.

Now both of those bits of background are of questionable canon in the modern era. But also? Nothing has really superseded them, to the best of my knowledge.

The Necron in question may well be remembering what an Eldar could do prior to the warp being broken by the war.

Also there’s now a Chaos God tied to Eldar souls, actively trying to devour them, that’s gonna put a crimp in your psychic enthusiasm.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, we can look to two sources of now dubious canon to get an idea of how The Warp has changed overtime.

The first of course is Realms of Chaos. Here we first learnt that the Warp was once in balance. Suitably gifted souls could bathe in its power, and reincarnate as themself in due course.

Whilst there’s no particular cause given (though it’s been a while) something sent the Warp out of balance, making that reincarnation harder. And that imbalance eventually birthed the Chaos Gods, setting up an endless cycle of psychic feedback. In short, the Gods grew to be able to influence real space, ensuring their particular passions were fed, giving them more power, and thus more influence, arguably preventing balance ever returning.

The second is the original Necron Codex. In short, the war between the C’tan and Old Ones was of a scale so staggering? It kind of broke the warp. Sped along by the Old Ones creating new, psychically potent races, it’s all went horribly wrong.

Now both of those bits of background are of questionable canon in the modern era. But also? Nothing has really superseded them, to the best of my knowledge.

The Necron in question may well be remembering what an Eldar could do prior to the warp being broken by the war.

Also there’s now a Chaos God tied to Eldar souls, actively trying to devour them, that’s gonna put a crimp in your psychic enthusiasm.

I don't think they are controdiatry. The warp is is basically noosphere, an "other-plane" that's parrallel/parasidic to our own. The material plane can influence the warp just as the warp can influence us, particularly mentally in this case. Once the warp is like a vast calmed pound, with only occassionaly ripples caused by odd splashes here, or a drop of a fallen leaf there; now it's a ragging ocean because a million-million meteroites - some of which the size of the Chicxulub - crushed into the pound eons ago, and the echos of those impacts still resonates to this day. Waves add to waves as they crush into one another, forming regions of the ocean that's particularily dangerous -- the largest of which being the Great Four.

Those meteorites were the psychic screams of the War in Heaven/Fall of Eldar/any significant wars that cause great sufferings and death in major civilisation centres, etc.

But I also think there's another reason for the Eldar/Aeldari's atrophy of psychic might, other than self-sabotage. I think the warp is no longer as controllable to them as it once was, at the same time, the warp is also less intense then they used to be.

Look, like it or not, 40K and fantasy had a lot in common, especially when it comes to the warp itself. The Eldar were envisioned as Elves in SPEEESSSS!, and one of the original lore in fantasy was that Elves were taught by the Slann (which had also been basically what happened to the Eldars) and with the fall of the Slann, the Elves became one of the masters of magic in fantasy. Then Chaos invasion happened, and the Elves had to open the plug to the warp so most of the ruinous energies could be sucked away and Daemons can no longer manifest as easily; but also, the Elves could no longer use their sorcery to the extend they did, nor could the Dwarfs used to Runic magic (which traps the Wind of Magic within its geometry, as I undertand it), unless a Storm of Magic occurs, in which the Great Runes "re-awakens" and catalystic spells could be used by magic users -- because there were just much, much more magic powers to draw from (there's also a thing about magic fulcrum that serve as channels of magical energies, but not important to my point).

So in 40K, humanity went into an Age of Strife around M25. Supposedly one of the key factors (sans the Men of Iron) were the sudden appearance of human psykers, the proliferation of psykers led to Daemon manifestations as well as increasing destability of Warp travels until it became all but impossible, leading to the isolation and wars on planets that relied heavily on off-world resources (like Terra).

We know Slaanesh was likely gestating during the Age of Strife, shim's birth was what allowed the Warp Storms to calm enough so that the Emprah could start his Great Crusade. So, I propose the Warp was increasing in activity in the lead up to Slaanesh's birth, and the access to Warp power was easier simply because the "amplitude" of warp energy could be more easily sensed by psykers in the material world. Humans began manifesting psychic powers en-mass as a resonance to the increasing raging powers in the Warp itself (which was no doubt aided by the Eldar's hedonistic echos).

When Slaanesh was born, that explosion was like a volcanic erruption, which calmed the "sesmic activities" by unleashing the penned up powers in one epic "Bang"! Now that the earthquakes are gone, it would be safe to travel, for a time. The Eldars had been using that sesmic activites, and the more they hedonated, the stronger it became for them. Now that those powers have faded, so too have their ability to wield psychic powers like they did in the old days.

TLR: Slaanesh was doing a lot of karate in the womb and the Eldars had been using those punches to unleash their psychic powers; now Slaanesh is just orgying in shim's palace and eating their souls, the Eldars no longer have the punches they need to use those powers.

You can only infer their power based on the circumstances around them.

Also, there would have been 3 'eras' of eldar psychic power:

War in Heaven
Post Enslaver Plague
Post Slannesh


Given the eldar were created as psychic guns to fight the necrons at their height and their c'tan slaves, one would imagine their capability to be pretty crazy - super saiyan brain laser beam kung fu shadow clone attack kind of stuff.


After doing this lots screwed the warp up and you got daemons and enslavers, their ability to draw on the warp would have lessened. Simply due to the turbulence and dangers. But I imagine they'd still be pretty powerful, as they could reincarnate and their souls bathed in the warp without issue. They would pull warp juice straight out, rather than having to dilute it through their runes.

Modern eldar are a pale shadow of their forebears.

People often talk about what a Krork would be like, but I'd love to see what the Eldanesh level psionic knight death ray eye beam warp cannon eldar would have been like.

They fought the necrons and c'tan to a standstill which is pretty impressive, so their power must have been pretty awesome.

When Craftworlds were introduced (around 2nd) there was a lot ink about the use of runes to basically be covert with psychic powers/hide from Slaanesh and reduce warp exposure.

The general gist was 'this works reliably, its a lot less powerful, but we don't get gobbled, so this is what we have to do from now on'

The impression I had was they they were connecting the runes to warp to create a fixed effect rather than connecting directly with the warp.

Voss wrote:
When Craftworlds were introduced (around 2nd) there was a lot ink about the use of runes to basically be covert with psychic powers/hide from Slaanesh and reduce warp exposure.

The general gist was 'this works reliably, its a lot less powerful, but we don't get gobbled, so this is what we have to do from now on'

The impression I had was they they were connecting the runes to warp to create a fixed effect rather than connecting directly with the warp.

Runes are supposed to be like fuses. So when you channel through the runes, if there’s an issue and Slaanesh or some daemon tries to get you (or even just you use too much power) then the runes melt and cut it off from harming you.

However this is not really how they’ve ever worked in TT (with the ghosthelm being the anti perils kit instead).

I wouldn't say their power has changed. Only what they can safely use of the power they have.

So an Eldar of today could go totally ham and use his full power. But Slannesh would immediately nom his soul like a grape.

They're gimped only in the sense that if they ever use even a fraction of their full power they'll die. The power is still there, just inaccessible by everyone with sense.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say their power has changed. Only what they can safely use of the power they have.

So an Eldar of today could go totally ham and use his full power. But Slannesh would immediately nom his soul like a grape.

They're gimped only in the sense that if they ever use even a fraction of their full power they'll die. The power is still there, just inaccessible by everyone with sense.

That said without training they might not even be able to draw on those powers or command them correctly. It likely still took them a long time to master the higher powers of manipulating the Warp. So with generations of not using those powers and not exploring them and outright avoiding them; chances are they would still not be able to command such powers. If they could touch them they might suddenly lose all control.

 Overread wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say their power has changed. Only what they can safely use of the power they have.

So an Eldar of today could go totally ham and use his full power. But Slannesh would immediately nom his soul like a grape.

They're gimped only in the sense that if they ever use even a fraction of their full power they'll die. The power is still there, just inaccessible by everyone with sense.

That said without training they might not even be able to draw on those powers or command them correctly. It likely still took them a long time to master the higher powers of manipulating the Warp. So with generations of not using those powers and not exploring them and outright avoiding them; chances are they would still not be able to command such powers. If they could touch them they might suddenly lose all control.

Yeah. The *potential* power is there. Like, if Slaanesh were suddenly a non-threat, living eldar (except maybe drukhari with their atrophied psychic abilities) would theoretically be able to start tapping into the same raw power they had before fall. But they'd have no first-hand experience. Plus, some of the techniques/skills they had in the past may have died out due to not being able to pass the skills on properly. You can imagine how bad humanity might be at basketball if we all collectively stopped playing for a few generations.

It's also worth mentioning that eldar have their psychic abilities intentionally dampened via psychic blocks when they're young to prevent them from accidentally drawing Slaanesh's attention. So a random guardian who suddenly decides to say YOLO and dig deep for his psychic abilities mid-fight... might not actually be able to access them fully.

How long do Eldar actually live? Because maybe some of the ones from the Fall are still alive. And certainly can be brought back with Wraith constructs for some teaching.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How long do Eldar actually live? Because maybe some of the ones from the Fall are still alive. And certainly can be brought back with Wraith constructs for some teaching.

Depends on your definition of living.

Are you alive if your consciousness uploads into an armor? Are you alive if your mind is overwritten by your armor?

Are you alive if you're in a spiritstone? Only if you're in the infinity circuit? Only if you're in a wraith construct?

Are you still alive if you've been blown up, had your body regenerated from your leftover hand, and had your spirit stuffed back in?

Plus if it's still canon, farseers and presumably other heavy psychic users start to crystallize like Eldrad.

But the average Aeldari probably follows the same rule as the average Imperium character--they live as long as their popularity and the plot demand.

Well, Eldrad was around to chat with the Emperor pre-golden throne. So at least 10,000 years it seems. But also dying of old age does seem to be a thing that happens to craftworlders, so probably no-prefall eldar outside of those who have ressurectiont ricks like the phoenix lords and (it's implied) Rakarth.

Spirit stones *can* be used to hold onto some knowledge for longer, but there's kind of an implied "shelf life" for spirit stones. Souls in the infinity circuit seem to grow more fuzzy and harder to call forth over time; sort of a slow erosion of the self. Spirit stones that are left on their own for too long apparently grow into angry wraith bone trees as the souls inside go crazy. So if you wanted to keep a pre-fall eldar soul in a spirit stone indefinitely to prevent spirit erosion, you'd presumably need to give it sufficient social and mental stimulation (by sticking it in a piece of tech like an exarch suit or a wave serpent?) to keep it from going sour.

And that's assuming you were able to get a waystone into the hands of a pre-fall eldar with psy-training before they died. Spirit stones may or may not have existed pre-fall, but it's implied that they were way less common and certainly not commonly used until after the fall. And we have guys like Asurmen who did live pre-fall, but he seems to lack either the ability or inclination to pass along psychic techniques. Unless maybe that's how he shoved some of his soul into his ship?

I thought that Eldar collected spirit stones from the crone worlds in the Eye of Terror itself?

This implies that either spirit stones existed before the fall OR were in some way created by the fall.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I thought that Eldar collected spirit stones from the crone worlds in the Eye of Terror itself?

This implies that either spirit stones existed before the fall OR were in some way created by the fall.

I believe its outright stated or heavily implied that the Spirit Stones are Eldar who fell on the Crone Worlds. A part of them that was manifested in that crazed region of the Warp.

Thus not only are they very hard to acquire, but they are also in theory a limited resource that will become harder and harder to harvest as time passes and eventually will run out.

Can they be reused?

Like, if an Eldar's spirit stone is recovered and they get put in the matrix then the stone is empty and could be used by someone else.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Can they be reused?

Like, if an Eldar's spirit stone is recovered and they get put in the matrix then the stone is empty and could be used by someone else.

That seems to be the case, yes. Although stones are being slowly lost over time as they're vaporized during combat, taken as trophies, lost in the void of space, etc.

EDIT: I don't recall any lore stating that a craftworld has ever actually run out of usable waystones, and the glimpses we see of eldar families makes it sound like there isn't really any population control going on to discourage creating new eldar. So the spirit stone supply seems to be the sort of thing craftworlders keep an eye on/are glad to get more of, but not in such short supply that anyone is actually going without.

 Overread wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I thought that Eldar collected spirit stones from the crone worlds in the Eye of Terror itself?

This implies that either spirit stones existed before the fall OR were in some way created by the fall.

I believe its outright stated or heavily implied that the Spirit Stones are Eldar who fell on the Crone Worlds. A part of them that was manifested in that crazed region of the Warp.

Thus not only are they very hard to acquire, but they are also in theory a limited resource that will become harder and harder to harvest as time passes and eventually will run out.

It's described in the Asurmen novel that the populace turn into the stones. It's not really described HOW or WHY, but that's what happened.

I'm sure the Eldar wouldn't mind if they actually had a "we have more Eldar than spirit stones to protect them" problem. Would imply that they're maybe pulling out of the extinction problem.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm sure the Eldar wouldn't mind if they actually had a "we have more Eldar than spirit stones to protect them" problem. Would imply that they're maybe pulling out of the extinction problem.

Honestly I got the impression that's the story pathway that Yinnari is going for. My hope is that its basically giving Eldar a story kick to go from a manipulation and "dying race" to a "lets go kick some ass and do stuff" faction in a more overt way. I think it would be a great move because a race on the downer is a hard concept to keep selling for decades. Esp when you're pushing new military models into them and when a lot of other races are actually on an up right now.

Imperium's on a bit of a down but just got a whole new Crusade with Primaris; Chaos is doing grand campaign things; Necrons are waking up in large numbers and have their King back; Tau are expanding; Orks are happy doing ork stuff; Tyranids are ever expanding. Basically a LOT of factions are in a grim and dark situation, but also doing stuff. So its high time Eldar rose up to take a slice of the pie and remind the Galaxy just who it was who defeated the Necrons; who outlasted all others in those times and who were the true masters of the Galaxy for a time.

 Overread wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm sure the Eldar wouldn't mind if they actually had a "we have more Eldar than spirit stones to protect them" problem. Would imply that they're maybe pulling out of the extinction problem.

Honestly I got the impression that's the story pathway that Yinnari is going for.

Maybe. Right now, Ynnari seem to burn through their recruits fast. Lots of momentum from all the space elves excited to actually fight for a better outcome instead of languishing, but also at risk of fizzling out and leaving their species in an even worse situation. It's a fun place to have them.

But if memory serves, when an Ynnari dies, their soul goes to Ynnead?

If that does happen, then the need for Spirit Stones is greatly lessened.

Yep that's my impression on the big difference. Instead of being defensive because you don't want to die and have your soul stone lost on the battlefield or taken by the enemy. Ynnari lets you fight in the open and if you fall your soul goes there to safety from Slaanesh. Plus in theory because demons grow in power with souls it doesn't actually matter if there are high losses to start with because that means more fuel and feed. So long as their population doesn't dip because of it.

If anything the potential to actually flight, reclaim land, worlds and territory and such might even spark the Eldar into a population expansion. Hiding in Craftworlds and focusing on "The Path" and the fear of Slaanesh might all contribute to them breeding even less than normal.

 Overread wrote:
Yep that's my impression on the big difference. Instead of being defensive because you don't want to die and have your soul stone lost on the battlefield or taken by the enemy. Ynnari lets you fight in the open and if you fall your soul goes there to safety from Slaanesh. Plus in theory because demons grow in power with souls it doesn't actually matter if there are high losses to start with because that means more fuel and feed. So long as their population doesn't dip because of it.

If anything the potential to actually flight, reclaim land, worlds and territory and such might even spark the Eldar into a population expansion. Hiding in Craftworlds and focusing on "The Path" and the fear of Slaanesh might all contribute to them breeding even less than normal.

This would make the Eldar less unique rather than more.

Their entire identity is beholden to their racial extinction and their high intellect. In order for them to become expansionist, at least one of these has to go.

SideSwipe wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Yep that's my impression on the big difference. Instead of being defensive because you don't want to die and have your soul stone lost on the battlefield or taken by the enemy. Ynnari lets you fight in the open and if you fall your soul goes there to safety from Slaanesh. Plus in theory because demons grow in power with souls it doesn't actually matter if there are high losses to start with because that means more fuel and feed. So long as their population doesn't dip because of it.

If anything the potential to actually flight, reclaim land, worlds and territory and such might even spark the Eldar into a population expansion. Hiding in Craftworlds and focusing on "The Path" and the fear of Slaanesh might all contribute to them breeding even less than normal.

This would make the Eldar less unique rather than more.

Their entire identity is beholden to their racial extinction and their high intellect. In order for them to become expansionist, at least one of these has to go.

True, at the same time its really hard to get people fired up to play the depressed faction
Plus even if Eldar go on the offensive you can still mix in a LOT of the Grim Dark elements. Just noted above was the fact that it could potentially mean that they start gaining ground, but take increased losses and thus they are being reduced faster and its a race. Do they reconquer enough to stabilize and protect themselves or do they just burn themselves out in one last blinding flash of glory. Reminding the Galaxy just who they were and how mighty they are before burning out as they simply run out of population to sustain themselves.


It would also give good reason for niche factions to rise up - the Exodites could actually DO something and get some models; the Harliquins could again splinter from the book and become a faction;etc

Well, Biel-Tan *was* the expansionist eldar faction prior to their devastation. Their work seemed to focus mostly on the preservation/reclamation of exodite worlds. And as exodites seem to mostly stay put on their own planets, this meant that Biel-Tan wasn't really cranking up/growing its capacity to wage war on a larger scale; it was just taking steps to constantly be able to wage war to the best of its ability.

FWIW, I don't view the Ynnari as promoting expansion among eldar. They seem to be more about burning through recruits in pursuit of relics or in an effort to build relations with craftworlds they can potentially recruit from.

 Overread wrote:

SideSwipe wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Yep that's my impression on the big difference. Instead of being defensive because you don't want to die and have your soul stone lost on the battlefield or taken by the enemy. Ynnari lets you fight in the open and if you fall your soul goes there to safety from Slaanesh. Plus in theory because demons grow in power with souls it doesn't actually matter if there are high losses to start with because that means more fuel and feed. So long as their population doesn't dip because of it.

If anything the potential to actually flight, reclaim land, worlds and territory and such might even spark the Eldar into a population expansion. Hiding in Craftworlds and focusing on "The Path" and the fear of Slaanesh might all contribute to them breeding even less than normal.

This would make the Eldar less unique rather than more.

Their entire identity is beholden to their racial extinction and their high intellect. In order for them to become expansionist, at least one of these has to go.

True, at the same time its really hard to get people fired up to play the depressed faction
Plus even if Eldar go on the offensive you can still mix in a LOT of the Grim Dark elements. Just noted above was the fact that it could potentially mean that they start gaining ground, but take increased losses and thus they are being reduced faster and its a race. Do they reconquer enough to stabilize and protect themselves or do they just burn themselves out in one last blinding flash of glory. Reminding the Galaxy just who they were and how mighty they are before burning out as they simply run out of population to sustain themselves.


It would also give good reason for niche factions to rise up - the Exodites could actually DO something and get some models; the Harliquins could again splinter from the book and become a faction;etc

How could a falling population[which I'm extrapolating from your increased losses] hold ground? Why would they conquer worlds when it's already established that the Craftworlds are closer to ghost towns than full? They have no need for territory.

The Eldar do get involved, and are burning themselves out in a last gasp of glory, and the few military campaigns they engage in they view as putting the lowly races of the galaxy back in their place[reminding them how mighty the Eldar are].

It's unlikely Harlequins were rolled back into the main book because of background reasons, I'd imagine the main reason was sales not justifying expanding the faction.

Exodites are established as being primitive and relying on the craftworlds for defence. With no established mode of interstellar transport, there'd need to be significant retcons to include them in the game, nevermind as a standalone faction.

It sounds more like you'd be better suited to Tau tbh, you seem to want a dynamic, expansionist faction, which fits Tau better. They even have the race to expand before getting crushed hook you've mentioned.

SideSwipe wrote:

How could a falling population[which I'm extrapolating from your increased losses] hold ground? Why would they conquer worlds when it's already established that the Craftworlds are closer to ghost towns than full? They have no need for territory.

In Biel-Tan's case, their modus operandi seemed to be to wipe out specific threats to/colonists of maiden worlds. Then, thanks to their seers, they could go do other stuff until the seers detect an upcoming threat to the territory they'd previously saved/reclaimed. That said, the impression I get from craftworlds that care about smaller craftworlds and maiden worlds is that they're constantly have to let some threats slip so that they can address others.

The Eldar do get involved, and are burning themselves out in a last gasp of glory, and the few military campaigns they engage in they view as putting the lowly races of the galaxy back in their place[reminding them how mighty the Eldar are].

They *do* do that, although a lot of their campaigns are more about averting disaster than flaunting bygone glory. More often than not, the point of a major eldar campaign seems to be preventing the deaths of entire craftworlds or staving off other wide-reaching disasters.

It's unlikely Harlequins were rolled back into the main book because of background reasons, I'd imagine the main reason was sales not justifying expanding the faction.

As much as I love my harlies and was excited to see them get their own book, I've kind of come around to thinking that they work better as more of an agents of the imperium style unit. It lets them feel more special and unique. Some of the mystique of the harlies gets lost when they're dying in droves on the tabletop.

Exodites are established as being primitive and relying on the craftworlds for defence. With no established mode of interstellar transport, there'd need to be significant retcons to include them in the game, nevermind as a standalone faction.

"Primitive" is inaccurate. Technically, they have access to most of the same tech as craftworlders; they just intentionally avoid using tech (or possibly intentionally live lifestyles that remain difficult despite the tech) as their method of staving off Slaanesh. While it's true that they tend not to have spaceships, their weapons of choice are still things like laser lances, bright lances, shurikens, etc. But your point about it being tough to get them off the planet stands. I wouldn't be surprised if the ynnari became a grab-bag faction that includes exodites, maybe white seers, etc. Maybe Yvraine launches an initiative to start recruiting exodites en masse, recognizing them as an untapped resource. Then they could be their own faction in a similar fashion to how kroot *could be* their own faction.

It sounds more like you'd be better suited to Tau tbh, you seem to want a dynamic, expansionist faction, which fits Tau better. They even have the race to expand before getting crushed hook you've mentioned.

No need to tell people they're enjoying their space elves wrong.