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Hello all!
I have been looking at the rules this days and I still fail to see the biggest advantage for the lance formation, specially for units of 6.
A lance formation of 6 can make 5 attacks without any rank bonus. If I just put the 6 knights inn a single line they will make 6 attacks and will also not have rank bonus (both get close order and lance bonus). Only advantage would be for grail knights as they have 2 attacks and therefore you will get 10 attacks for sure while for the line it will depend on base contact.
If you get a handmaiden you can protect her in rear rank in both cases.
For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

In terms of maneuverability I don't think there is a big difference either and flanks will be wider in the lance formation as well as having a smaller frontal arc. Other units can also block you by standing on your flanks even if your knights in the sides can see them.

Am I missing something? There doesn't seem to be a clear superiority for me, you simply trade things (not even a trade for the 6 minis, there you only lose) and overall it seems like the lance is worst.

Also, do the handmaidens get line of sight while in the middle of the lance? Because if not they will also benefit from the second rank of a normal unit.

Last question, how do we actually use it with the pegasus? When they get closer on the charge we try to put them in a triangle?

Huh? A unit of 6 KotR should still get 6 attacks, as the 6th model should be able to make a supporting attack if I've understood the rules correctly. That should also provide you +1CR as a free rank bonus from the lance formation, while a 10-man lance is the maximum possible +2CR (lance bonus +1 complete rank of 4 cavalry models).

Darkial wrote:
Also, do the handmaidens get line of sight while in the middle of the lance? Because if not they will also benefit from the second rank of a normal unit.

Yes, this is stated in the Handmaiden's unit entry

chaos0xomega wrote:
Huh? A unit of 6 KotR should still get 6 attacks, as the 6th model should be able to make a supporting attack if I've understood the rules correctly. That should also provide you +1CR as a free rank bonus from the lance formation, while a 10-man lance is the maximum possible +2CR (lance bonus +1 complete rank of 4 cavalry models).

But there are no supporting attacks in TOW and the lance doesn't give attack on additional ranks.

And yes, in my original comment I made the comparison taking into account that both close order and lance formation have the static +1 so they're equal on that. So I still don't see the big advantage of the lance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Darkial wrote:
Also, do the handmaidens get line of sight while in the middle of the lance? Because if not they will also benefit from the second rank of a normal unit.

Yes, this is stated in the Handmaiden's unit entry

I'm at work now so I can't see it, but did it say that or that it counts as being in the fighting rank? Because I want sure if that just meant that you get all the Ld advantages and other similar effects but not that it meant that out can see through its own unit.

Darkial wrote:
Hello all!
I have been looking at the rules this days and I still fail to see the biggest advantage for the lance formation, specially for units of 6.
A lance formation of 6 can make 5 attacks without any rank bonus. If I just put the 6 knights inn a single line they will make 6 attacks and will also not have rank bonus (both get close order and lance bonus). Only advantage would be for grail knights as they have 2 attacks and therefore you will get 10 attacks for sure while for the line it will depend on base contact.
If you get a handmaiden you can protect her in rear rank in both cases.
For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

In terms of maneuverability I don't think there is a big difference either and flanks will be wider in the lance formation as well as having a smaller frontal arc. Other units can also block you by standing on your flanks even if your knights in the sides can see them.

Am I missing something? There doesn't seem to be a clear superiority for me, you simply trade things (not even a trade for the 6 minis, there you only lose) and overall it seems like the lance is worst.

Also, do the handmaidens get line of sight while in the middle of the lance? Because if not they will also benefit from the second rank of a normal unit.

Last question, how do we actually use it with the pegasus? When they get closer on the charge we try to put them in a triangle?

There are times when the lance will be better vs a standard line. Six models wide on 30mm bases might push 1-2 models out of combat by not being in B2B with single models or some such. Whereas just being in B2B with the front of a lance opens up all the attacks.

It is also far, far more nimble as you measure your wheels from the 2nd rank vs a big wide rank of six. Depending, there is roughly a 4:1 turn ratio, based on my quick measuring - so I get a lot more movement out of my charges than say an Empire Knight unit would. Also, in that same vein, you only ever need to get that front model into B2B, as that is your maximum - vs trying to wheel and maneuver as many of that front line into place as you can. Again, it is more nimble.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Darkial wrote:
Hello all!
I have been looking at the rules this days and I still fail to see the biggest advantage for the lance formation, specially for units of 6.
A lance formation of 6 can make 5 attacks without any rank bonus. If I just put the 6 knights inn a single line they will make 6 attacks and will also not have rank bonus (both get close order and lance bonus). Only advantage would be for grail knights as they have 2 attacks and therefore you will get 10 attacks for sure while for the line it will depend on base contact.
If you get a handmaiden you can protect her in rear rank in both cases.
For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

In terms of maneuverability I don't think there is a big difference either and flanks will be wider in the lance formation as well as having a smaller frontal arc. Other units can also block you by standing on your flanks even if your knights in the sides can see them.

Am I missing something? There doesn't seem to be a clear superiority for me, you simply trade things (not even a trade for the 6 minis, there you only lose) and overall it seems like the lance is worst.

Also, do the handmaidens get line of sight while in the middle of the lance? Because if not they will also benefit from the second rank of a normal unit.

Last question, how do we actually use it with the pegasus? When they get closer on the charge we try to put them in a triangle?

There are times when the lance will be better vs a standard line. Six models wide on 30mm bases might push 1-2 models out of combat by not being in B2B with single models or some such. Whereas just being in B2B with the front of a lance opens up all the attacks.

It is also far, far more nimble as you measure your wheels from the 2nd rank vs a big wide rank of six. Depending, there is roughly a 4:1 turn ratio, based on my quick measuring - so I get a lot more movement out of my charges than say an Empire Knight unit would. Also, in that same vein, you only ever need to get that front model into B2B, as that is your maximum - vs trying to wheel and maneuver as many of that front line into place as you can. Again, it is more nimble.

They won't be pushed out of combat, all of the front attack. Only for grail knights that have 2 attacks you will maybe lose some attacks, as your characters should be able to move through.

Yeah, for wheeling it's better but you can also be blocked on the sides by enemy units.

The lance formation allows more knights to attack over a narrower footprint. That doesn't do much when thinking about a single unit of 6 which would probably be better in line if operating in isolation. But if you have multiple units of knights operating next to each other lance takes up less table space and makes it far easier to combine charges into a single enemy unit or to charge to support an already engaged unit. I believe 2 units of 6 would have 10 attacking knights and a +2 formation bonus in the same space as a single unit in line.

I've not had a chance to examine the rules in depth yet, but I like the idea that lance is situational and not an auto-use for everything.

Darkial wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Darkial wrote:
Hello all!
I have been looking at the rules this days and I still fail to see the biggest advantage for the lance formation, specially for units of 6.
A lance formation of 6 can make 5 attacks without any rank bonus. If I just put the 6 knights inn a single line they will make 6 attacks and will also not have rank bonus (both get close order and lance bonus). Only advantage would be for grail knights as they have 2 attacks and therefore you will get 10 attacks for sure while for the line it will depend on base contact.
If you get a handmaiden you can protect her in rear rank in both cases.
For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

In terms of maneuverability I don't think there is a big difference either and flanks will be wider in the lance formation as well as having a smaller frontal arc. Other units can also block you by standing on your flanks even if your knights in the sides can see them.

Am I missing something? There doesn't seem to be a clear superiority for me, you simply trade things (not even a trade for the 6 minis, there you only lose) and overall it seems like the lance is worst.

Also, do the handmaidens get line of sight while in the middle of the lance? Because if not they will also benefit from the second rank of a normal unit.

Last question, how do we actually use it with the pegasus? When they get closer on the charge we try to put them in a triangle?

There are times when the lance will be better vs a standard line. Six models wide on 30mm bases might push 1-2 models out of combat by not being in B2B with single models or some such. Whereas just being in B2B with the front of a lance opens up all the attacks.

It is also far, far more nimble as you measure your wheels from the 2nd rank vs a big wide rank of six. Depending, there is roughly a 4:1 turn ratio, based on my quick measuring - so I get a lot more movement out of my charges than say an Empire Knight unit would. Also, in that same vein, you only ever need to get that front model into B2B, as that is your maximum - vs trying to wheel and maneuver as many of that front line into place as you can. Again, it is more nimble.

They won't be pushed out of combat, all of the front attack. Only for grail knights that have 2 attacks you will maybe lose some attacks, as your characters should be able to move through.

Yeah, for wheeling it's better but you can also be blocked on the sides by enemy units.

Oh, yeah, that is right on the front attack. I saw the little blurb on B2B and thought that defined Fighting Rank, but its the next paragraph.

Either way, it is far more maneuverable. Anything that could block it to the sides would also just as easily (or more so) block a standard unit. The fact it might take up to 4" to wheel while the lance only needs 1" is a huge benefit, getting those longer distance charges more often, as well as being able to sweep into flanks with tighter turns.

 Unknown_Lifeform wrote:
The lance formation allows more knights to attack over a narrower footprint. That doesn't do much when thinking about a single unit of 6 which would probably be better in line if operating in isolation. But if you have multiple units of knights operating next to each other lance takes up less table space and makes it far easier to combine charges into a single enemy unit or to charge to support an already engaged unit. I believe 2 units of 6 would have 10 attacking knights and a +2 formation bonus in the same space as a single unit in line.

I've not had a chance to examine the rules in depth yet, but I like the idea that lance is situational and not an auto-use for everything.

Two units in line of 6 would have 12 attacks vs the 10 of the 2 lances, and the footprint won't be as bad actually. And it will also have +2 resolution for being in close order (combat formation as it is wider than longer).
The more I think about it the more it seems that it will only work for now than 6 models.

But yeah, you could charge the same unit with both lances and not with the two in line except if you go for flanks, so maybe it's as you say, not an auto do for the knights but something that we have to decide case by case.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Darkial wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Darkial wrote:
Hello all!
I have been looking at the rules this days and I still fail to see the biggest advantage for the lance formation, specially for units of 6.
A lance formation of 6 can make 5 attacks without any rank bonus. If I just put the 6 knights inn a single line they will make 6 attacks and will also not have rank bonus (both get close order and lance bonus). Only advantage would be for grail knights as they have 2 attacks and therefore you will get 10 attacks for sure while for the line it will depend on base contact.
If you get a handmaiden you can protect her in rear rank in both cases.
For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

In terms of maneuverability I don't think there is a big difference either and flanks will be wider in the lance formation as well as having a smaller frontal arc. Other units can also block you by standing on your flanks even if your knights in the sides can see them.

Am I missing something? There doesn't seem to be a clear superiority for me, you simply trade things (not even a trade for the 6 minis, there you only lose) and overall it seems like the lance is worst.

Also, do the handmaidens get line of sight while in the middle of the lance? Because if not they will also benefit from the second rank of a normal unit.

Last question, how do we actually use it with the pegasus? When they get closer on the charge we try to put them in a triangle?

There are times when the lance will be better vs a standard line. Six models wide on 30mm bases might push 1-2 models out of combat by not being in B2B with single models or some such. Whereas just being in B2B with the front of a lance opens up all the attacks.

It is also far, far more nimble as you measure your wheels from the 2nd rank vs a big wide rank of six. Depending, there is roughly a 4:1 turn ratio, based on my quick measuring - so I get a lot more movement out of my charges than say an Empire Knight unit would. Also, in that same vein, you only ever need to get that front model into B2B, as that is your maximum - vs trying to wheel and maneuver as many of that front line into place as you can. Again, it is more nimble.

They won't be pushed out of combat, all of the front attack. Only for grail knights that have 2 attacks you will maybe lose some attacks, as your characters should be able to move through.

Yeah, for wheeling it's better but you can also be blocked on the sides by enemy units.

Oh, yeah, that is right on the front attack. I saw the little blurb on B2B and thought that defined Fighting Rank, but its the next paragraph.

Either way, it is far more maneuverable. Anything that could block it to the sides would also just as easily (or more so) block a standard unit. The fact it might take up to 4" to wheel while the lance only needs 1" is a huge benefit, getting those longer distance charges more often, as well as being able to sweep into flanks with tighter turns.

I agree for the more maneuverable, maybe that's the actual advantage. For blocking the unit, I mean what I marked in the picture. The ref marks could be two enemy units that are not allowing the lance to move, turn or even charge, as they would make contact with them.
For the normal one on top, they can just advance a little bit and then wheel, so they can't block the formation except if they're on the front.

There is this comment on the FAQ that you can actually wheel over other units, so maybe that avoids this? I'll have to check that better.

Darkial wrote:
There is this comment on the FAQ that you can actually wheel over other units, so maybe that avoids this? I'll have to check that better.

Q: When a unit wheels, is it acceptable for a rear corner to
pass through another unit?
A: Yes, provided the unit does not end its movement ‘on top’ of
another unit or within 1" of an enemy unit. When a unit wheels,
those at its rear do not really follow a long, curving path, as it might
appear when moving a large block of models on the table. In reality,
they would take a more direct route, following the path of the front
rank and resuming their formation behind it.

Yep. So, those "blockers" wouldn't necessarily work depending on the scenario.

Darkial wrote:

For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

You get a rank bonus for each rank "that contains enough models" and then a bonus +1 on top of that just for being in lance. So even if you get battered down to 3 models you still get a +2 for being in lance.

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

You get a rank bonus for each rank "that contains enough models" and then a bonus +1 on top of that just for being in lance. So even if you get battered down to 3 models you still get a +2 for being in lance.

Minimum number of models to claim a rank for heavy cavalry is 4, so you only get rank bonus for the 10 man unit. And the moment they kill you one knight, you lose it.

Darkial wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

You get a rank bonus for each rank "that contains enough models" and then a bonus +1 on top of that just for being in lance. So even if you get battered down to 3 models you still get a +2 for being in lance.

Minimum number of models to claim a rank for heavy cavalry is 4, so you only get rank bonus for the 10 man unit. And the moment they kill you one knight, you lose it.

Rereading it yeah, you are right. Jesus that's rough.

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

You get a rank bonus for each rank "that contains enough models" and then a bonus +1 on top of that just for being in lance. So even if you get battered down to 3 models you still get a +2 for being in lance.

Minimum number of models to claim a rank for heavy cavalry is 4, so you only get rank bonus for the 10 man unit. And the moment they kill you one knight, you lose it.

Rereading it yeah, you are right. Jesus that's rough.

That isn't that rough. A 10-man Empire Knight unit (4 wide, two deep plus two dudes) still only get +1 rank bonus and would lose it after two casualties vs just one. So, not too far off from Brets.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

You get a rank bonus for each rank "that contains enough models" and then a bonus +1 on top of that just for being in lance. So even if you get battered down to 3 models you still get a +2 for being in lance.

Minimum number of models to claim a rank for heavy cavalry is 4, so you only get rank bonus for the 10 man unit. And the moment they kill you one knight, you lose it.

Rereading it yeah, you are right. Jesus that's rough.

That isn't that rough. A 10-man Empire Knight unit (4 wide, two deep plus two dudes) still only get +1 rank bonus and would lose it after two casualties vs just one. So, not too far off from Brets.

Three casualties actually. So it's a trade between:
- 3 casualties to maintain rank bonus but 4 attacks (close order with rank of 4)
-2 casualties to maintain rank bonus but 5 attacks (close order with rank of 5)
- 1 casualty to maintain rank bonus but 7 attacks (lance)

As someone said, it's not a totally powerful formation, it has its uses and for sure it looks really cool. I still think that it should have something extra like reduces number of minis for the rank to 3, or gives something like horde for extra rank bonus.
In Warhammer Armies Project it gave furious charge, but I think that's too much

And I'm still worried about the blocking thing, I'll send a message to GW. That FAQ says only the ones in the rear and for a wheel, in my image above that would not be the case.

*Edit:
I actually think that the lance formation has the advantage to be able to give up to infinite rank bonus as it says this "a unit in lance formation can claim a rank bonus of +1 for each rank that contains enough models, as determined by its troop type"

Darkial wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

You get a rank bonus for each rank "that contains enough models" and then a bonus +1 on top of that just for being in lance. So even if you get battered down to 3 models you still get a +2 for being in lance.

Minimum number of models to claim a rank for heavy cavalry is 4, so you only get rank bonus for the 10 man unit. And the moment they kill you one knight, you lose it.

Rereading it yeah, you are right. Jesus that's rough.

That isn't that rough. A 10-man Empire Knight unit (4 wide, two deep plus two dudes) still only get +1 rank bonus and would lose it after two casualties vs just one. So, not too far off from Brets.

Three casualties actually. So it's a trade between:
- 3 casualties to maintain rank bonus but 4 attacks (close order with rank of 4)
-2 casualties to maintain rank bonus but 5 attacks (close order with rank of 5)
- 1 casualty to maintain rank bonus but 7 attacks (lance)

As someone said, it's not a totally powerful formation, it has its uses and for sure it looks really cool. I still think that it should have something extra like reduces number of minis for the rank to 3, or gives something like horde for extra rank bonus.
In Warhammer Armies Project it gave furious charge, but I think that's too much

And I'm still worried about the blocking thing, I'll send a message to GW. That FAQ says only the ones in the rear and for a wheel, in my image above that would not be the case.

*Edit:
I actually think that the lance formation has the advantage to be able to give up to infinite rank bonus as it says this "a unit in lance formation can claim a rank bonus of +1 for each rank that contains enough models, as determined by its troop type"

Lance gets an additional +1 CR for being a lance though? which is presumably to mitigate that it’s harder to get actual ranks.

So a lance of 10 has 3 CR dropping to 2 with a casualty vs 2 for Close Order (dropping to 1 after 2-3 casualties).

And at smaller unit sizes, a lance of 8-9 has the same static CR as Close Order but won’t lose any with casualties and a lance of 7 or less has 1 more.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Darkial wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

You get a rank bonus for each rank "that contains enough models" and then a bonus +1 on top of that just for being in lance. So even if you get battered down to 3 models you still get a +2 for being in lance.

Minimum number of models to claim a rank for heavy cavalry is 4, so you only get rank bonus for the 10 man unit. And the moment they kill you one knight, you lose it.

Rereading it yeah, you are right. Jesus that's rough.

That isn't that rough. A 10-man Empire Knight unit (4 wide, two deep plus two dudes) still only get +1 rank bonus and would lose it after two casualties vs just one. So, not too far off from Brets.

Three casualties actually. So it's a trade between:
- 3 casualties to maintain rank bonus but 4 attacks (close order with rank of 4)
-2 casualties to maintain rank bonus but 5 attacks (close order with rank of 5)
- 1 casualty to maintain rank bonus but 7 attacks (lance)

As someone said, it's not a totally powerful formation, it has its uses and for sure it looks really cool. I still think that it should have something extra like reduces number of minis for the rank to 3, or gives something like horde for extra rank bonus.
In Warhammer Armies Project it gave furious charge, but I think that's too much

And I'm still worried about the blocking thing, I'll send a message to GW. That FAQ says only the ones in the rear and for a wheel, in my image above that would not be the case.

*Edit:
I actually think that the lance formation has the advantage to be able to give up to infinite rank bonus as it says this "a unit in lance formation can claim a rank bonus of +1 for each rank that contains enough models, as determined by its troop type"

Lance gets an additional +1 CR for being a lance though? which is presumably to mitigate that it’s harder to get actual ranks.

So a lance of 10 has 3 CR dropping to 2 with a casualty vs 2 for Close Order (dropping to 1 after 2-3 casualties).

And at smaller unit sizes, a lance of 8-9 has the same static CR as Close Order but won’t lose any with casualties and a lance of 7 or less has 1 more.

A 10 man lance had only 1 rank bonus (except if it is monstrous cavalry, but I don't think we're going to see a 10 men pegasus unit): minimum 4 models per rank to claim a rank. So in lance it's 10 for +1 and 15 for +2 (if it is even possible for it to get a +2, not sure looking at the rules).

At 8-9 models the close order can get a rank bonus +1 that for the lance is impossible

I think you're mixing with the 6th ed lance in which you could claim the rank with 3 models.

Darkial wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Darkial wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

Tunafinch wrote:

Darkial wrote:

For a unit of 10 you get 7 attacks and 1 rank bonus in lance formation. If you put them in a normal formation you get either 4 attacks, 1 rank bonus and 2 wounds that you can lose to maintain that bonus or 5 attacks, 1 rank and 1 wound to lose.

You get a rank bonus for each rank "that contains enough models" and then a bonus +1 on top of that just for being in lance. So even if you get battered down to 3 models you still get a +2 for being in lance.

Minimum number of models to claim a rank for heavy cavalry is 4, so you only get rank bonus for the 10 man unit. And the moment they kill you one knight, you lose it.

Rereading it yeah, you are right. Jesus that's rough.

That isn't that rough. A 10-man Empire Knight unit (4 wide, two deep plus two dudes) still only get +1 rank bonus and would lose it after two casualties vs just one. So, not too far off from Brets.

Three casualties actually. So it's a trade between:
- 3 casualties to maintain rank bonus but 4 attacks (close order with rank of 4)
-2 casualties to maintain rank bonus but 5 attacks (close order with rank of 5)
- 1 casualty to maintain rank bonus but 7 attacks (lance)

As someone said, it's not a totally powerful formation, it has its uses and for sure it looks really cool. I still think that it should have something extra like reduces number of minis for the rank to 3, or gives something like horde for extra rank bonus.
In Warhammer Armies Project it gave furious charge, but I think that's too much

And I'm still worried about the blocking thing, I'll send a message to GW. That FAQ says only the ones in the rear and for a wheel, in my image above that would not be the case.

*Edit:
I actually think that the lance formation has the advantage to be able to give up to infinite rank bonus as it says this "a unit in lance formation can claim a rank bonus of +1 for each rank that contains enough models, as determined by its troop type"

Lance gets an additional +1 CR for being a lance though? which is presumably to mitigate that it’s harder to get actual ranks.

So a lance of 10 has 3 CR dropping to 2 with a casualty vs 2 for Close Order (dropping to 1 after 2-3 casualties).

And at smaller unit sizes, a lance of 8-9 has the same static CR as Close Order but won’t lose any with casualties and a lance of 7 or less has 1 more.

A 10 man lance had only 1 rank bonus (except if it is monstrous cavalry, but I don't think we're going to see a 10 men pegasus unit): minimum 4 models per rank to claim a rank. So in lance it's 10 for +1 and 15 for +2 (if it is even possible for it to get a +2, not sure looking at the rules).

At 8-9 models the close order can get a rank bonus +1 that for the lance is impossible

I think you're mixing with the 6th ed lance in which you could claim the rank with 3 models.

Not rank bonus, doesn’t the Lance formation have a rule that flat out gives you +1 CR? Might be misreading potato cam as my book’s not arrived yet, but as far as I can tell that’s what the para below the rank bonus one says ‘Combat Results Bonus’.

So at 8-9 models, while the lance has less rank bonus, the static CR is still the same, and higher at most other model sizes.

Sneaky secret Tomb Kings building a quote pyramid in Bretonnian topic

Both close order and lance formation give a static +1 to CR just for existing.
That's why for 6 models I think the line is more effective (but less cooler).

Darkial wrote:
Both close order and lance formation give a static +1 to CR just for existing.
That's why for 6 models I think the line is more effective (but less cooler).

Are you comparing 6 models to 6 models or to 8 models? Because 6 models in a standard formation don't get a rank bonus either. My point with that is that these aren't easy to compare strictly one-to-one on something singular like CR. They both have their benefits and drawbacks, which I think have been well-balanced. The lance isn't hands down better, nor is the standard formation. I think GW did a good job because just about everything in TOW is like this that I am seeing. Way more balanced edition than 8th.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Darkial wrote:
Both close order and lance formation give a static +1 to CR just for existing.
That's why for 6 models I think the line is more effective (but less cooler).

Are you comparing 6 models to 6 models or to 8 models? Because 6 models in a standard formation don't get a rank bonus either. My point with that is that these aren't easy to compare strictly one-to-one on something singular like CR. They both have their benefits and drawbacks, which I think have been well-balanced. The lance isn't hands down better, nor is the standard formation. I think GW did a good job because just about everything in TOW is like this that I am seeing. Way more balanced edition than 8th.

6 to 6.

That's what I said in my comments. For the same number of minis they get the same CR bonus (ranks and static) so no benefit there for any of them but more attacks for the line.

The extra wheel distance is the only advantage of the lance (on 6 men units) so maybe to use units of 6 to get the flanks more easily it's a good option.

For bigger units we get better equilibrium between both.

Frontage is quite important for units that don't have a lot of static CR and relies on kills.

10 knights in a normal formation takes up 300mm which is quite wide and you will either have to deploy units in waves or have trouble moving around terrain and the units your opponent wants you to charge.

At the same time 2x5 knights in a lance formation take up only a total 180mm of frontage. Should make it much easier to get multiple knights/attacks into the right unit.

Sure the entire front rank gets to attack in this edition so you can go as wide as you want in theory but I doubt that will be a good idea in practice unless you play on flat tables at low points.

Since it is Bretonnia and they can field a lot of knights you might notice the benefits of the smaller front when fielding 3+ units in lance formation. Especially if you play closer to 3k points rather than 2k and have an even more crowded table. That could be a lot of frontage shrunken down to save many many inches.

Darkial wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Darkial wrote:
Both close order and lance formation give a static +1 to CR just for existing.
That's why for 6 models I think the line is more effective (but less cooler).

Are you comparing 6 models to 6 models or to 8 models? Because 6 models in a standard formation don't get a rank bonus either. My point with that is that these aren't easy to compare strictly one-to-one on something singular like CR. They both have their benefits and drawbacks, which I think have been well-balanced. The lance isn't hands down better, nor is the standard formation. I think GW did a good job because just about everything in TOW is like this that I am seeing. Way more balanced edition than 8th.

6 to 6.

That's what I said in my comments. For the same number of minis they get the same CR bonus (ranks and static) so no benefit there for any of them but more attacks for the line.

The extra wheel distance is the only advantage of the lance (on 6 men units) so maybe to use units of 6 to get the flanks more easily it's a good option.

For bigger units we get better equilibrium between both.

It is only one more attack though, so it just isn't really that huge of a difference. As Klickor said, that frontage thing is a major benefit. My Bretonnians have six cavalry formations to maneuver, while other armies likely won't be going that route specifically. I need room to move, especially if I am going to get flanks and multiple charges.

The more I try to get my head about the Lance Formation the less I understand how it works exactly.

One thing that could swing the pendulum in both directions is how base contact actually works. The rules about it are quite short:

Whilst engaged in combat, every model on the outside of a Lance is considered to be within its fighting rank and in base contact with the enemy unit’s fighting rank.

Seems quite straightforward, doesn't it? Well, only at first sight because how exactly this does base contact work for the knights? Are they also considered to be in base contact with every model in the enemy unit's fighting rank? This would be quite strong because that would mean the whole unit of knights could, for example, concentrate their attacks on one enemy character. If they are not considered to be in base contact with every model in the enemy unit's fighting rank, which enemy models are they allowed to attack?

It's confusing enough when thinking about the knights' attacks, but what about their opponents? Which of them is (in turn) considered to be in base contact with our knights? Their whole fighting rank? Hell, this would mean that Bretonnians get wrecked by conga lines of monstrous infantry/cavalry since every model there would get their full number of attacks. If it's not the whole fighting rank, are just the models in actual base contact with the leading knight considered to be in base contact? That would mean that in a typical 5-wide 25mm-formation, only three enemy models would be in base contact with the knights. The fourth and fifth model in the front rank would be limited to one attack per model (p. 146). This would be a nice buff to the Lance formation against dangerous multi-attack opponents.

I'm quite surprised this stuff didn't come up in playtesting. I guess the safest way would be to just assume that it works like fifth edition (where every knight was considered to be in base contact with the models in front of it, ignoring the empty space in between and other knights), but there is nothing in the rules pointing to such a solution.

How do you think it works? The way base contact is actually handled may be quite important to the Lance's power.

 Nalim wrote:
The more I try to get my head about the Lance Formation the less I understand how it works exactly.

One thing that could swing the pendulum in both directions is how base contact actually works. The rules about it are quite short:

Whilst engaged in combat, every model on the outside of a Lance is considered to be within its fighting rank and in base contact with the enemy unit’s fighting rank.

Seems quite straightforward, doesn't it? Well, only at first sight because how exactly this does base contact work for the knights? Are they also considered to be in base contact with every model in the enemy unit's fighting rank? This would be quite strong because that would mean the whole unit of knights could, for example, concentrate their attacks on one enemy character. If they are not considered to be in base contact with every model in the enemy unit's fighting rank, which enemy models are they allowed to attack?

It's confusing enough when thinking about the knights' attacks, but what about their opponents? Which of them is (in turn) considered to be in base contact with our knights? Their whole fighting rank? Hell, this would mean that Bretonnians get wrecked by conga lines of monstrous infantry/cavalry since every model there would get their full number of attacks. If it's not the whole fighting rank, are just the models in actual base contact with the leading knight considered to be in base contact? That would mean that in a typical 5-wide 25mm-formation, only three enemy models would be in base contact with the knights. The fourth and fifth model in the front rank would be limited to one attack per model (p. 146). This would be a nice buff to the Lance formation against dangerous multi-attack opponents.

I'm quite surprised this stuff didn't come up in playtesting. I guess the safest way would be to just assume that it works like fifth edition (where every knight was considered to be in base contact with the models in front of it, ignoring the empty space in between and other knights), but there is nothing in the rules pointing to such a solution.

How do you think it works? The way base contact is actually handled may be quite important to the Lance's power.

I'm not sure where your confusion is coming from on some of that. This is detailed in the core rules on pg 145 and it seems straight-forward to me.

"Who can fight?" - the fighting rank (unless rules state more ranks can fight, ie spears)
Base Contact: Models in base contact can fight
Fighting Rank: Every model within a fighting rank can fight, see diagram 145.1
The Lance also has its rules clearly set out in the Forces of Fantasy book, pg 110-111.
"In combat, only the model at the front of the lance is required to make base contact with the enemy" The fighting rank then becomes the sides of the Lance and all those models are considered in base contact.

The one point about fighting within base contact, yeah, engaging with some units will be worse for the Lance as those units will get their full attacks, but realistically that would likely be the case in most scenarios with a standard formation anyhow. Monstrous units are not often that big or wide, so while yes, 10-wide Monstrous units with 5 attacks each would be rough to deal with, functionally I don't see those hitting the battlefield often - due to unit cost, maneuverability, and rank bonuses, etc. Usually they will be three wide, maybe four. And that would be hitting most formations with full attacks anyhow.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

I'm not sure where your confusion is coming from on some of that. This is detailed in the core rules on pg 145 and it seems straight-forward to me.

"Who can fight?" - the fighting rank (unless rules state more ranks can fight, ie spears)
Base Contact: Models in base contact can fight
Fighting Rank: Every model within a fighting rank can fight, see diagram 145.1
The Lance also has its rules clearly set out in the Forces of Fantasy book, pg 110-111.
"In combat, only the model at the front of the lance is required to make base contact with the enemy" The fighting rank then becomes the sides of the Lance and all those models are considered in base contact.

The one point about fighting within base contact, yeah, engaging with some units will be worse for the Lance as those units will get their full attacks, but realistically that would likely be the case in most scenarios with a standard formation anyhow. Monstrous units are not often that big or wide, so while yes, 10-wide Monstrous units with 5 attacks each would be rough to deal with, functionally I don't see those hitting the battlefield often - due to unit cost, maneuverability, and rank bonuses, etc. Usually they will be three wide, maybe four. And that would be hitting most formations with full attacks anyhow.

I'll try to illustrate the things that are unclear to me.



Let's assume the infantry unit has two attacks in its profile. "D" and "2" are unit champions. I've got the following questions:

Which of the infantry models can attack with two attacks (because they're in base contact) and which can attack with one attack (because they're in the fighting rank but not in base contact)? You could argue that B,C,D get two attacks and A,E get one attack. You could also argue all five get two attacks but that would mean that if the unit was 100 wide, 100 models would get two attacks (which would not happen if they get attacked by a unit in close order).

Can 7 direct its attacks to D (the infantry champion)?

Can E direct its attacks to 2 (the cavalry champion)?

Good point, I haven't actually thought about that.
As someone mentioned I would have said each model is in base contact with the one in front, but I think it's something that needs a FAQ.

Based solely on the rules as written, All the models get to attack as they're all in base contact. That's part of the Lance rules. Yes, attacks can be directed to champs. Also, yes, a 100 model wide unit gets the benefit, but like I said, that's an outlier scenario that doesn't seem likely on the table.

That being said, Darkial is probably right. Let's all send in emails to GW so they address it in the FAQs for the other books, as this is not a core rulebook issue.