Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know since they're Chaos Daemons this lore may diverge into multiple settings. But I'm curious as to how effective Bloodmasters or Bloodletters are in lore compared to another duelist with a powersword? Like, do Bloodletters and Bloodmasters just mindlessly hack and slash at everyone, or could a sentient Bloodmaster be considered a good 'duelist' with a Hellsword?

I'm asking because I want to have some background fluff to my Bloodmaster of being a semi-competent melee duelist. Are Bloodmasters more sentient than Bloodletters and could they in theory actually train to use their swords to become a duelist of sorts? I know Chaos Daemons are all about melee, but how competent in lore are they? Are there any books or instances of sword duels with one in a battle in AOS, 40k, or the Old World?

so, most lesser deamons, including the heralds, are within the normal human intelligence range, even if their somewhat myopically focused on what their gods want. even when they are in the throes of their battle rage, they are not just mindlessly hacking without skill, but fighting with all their intelligence. So, yes, a bloodmaster would be prefectly capable of being a skilled duelist who sought out worthy foes to behead.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, most lesser deamons, including the heralds, are within the normal human intelligence range, even if their somewhat myopically focused on what their gods want. even when they are in the throes of their battle rage, they are not just mindlessly hacking without skill, but fighting with all their intelligence. So, yes, a bloodmaster would be prefectly capable of being a skilled duelist who sought out worthy foes to behead.

Ah okay, that is what I was sort of thinking. I just wanted a reason for my Bloodmaster to be in charge and give them a bit of a personality. At least, one for a Chaos Daemon of Khorne. Mostly to personify my army a bit. I also noticed on stats that they have very good BS and attacks meaning they have to know how to swing better than your average Ork Boy with a choppa. If I wanted a pure mindless army I'd go with things like Nids or Necron warriors. I just like the concept that even for a daemon army there is some form of coordination amongst my ranks.

For a rough guide, Khorne heralds, when introduced in 4th edition, had a weapon skill (melee skill) of 6 and standard bloodletters in the same codex a WS of 5. Bloodletters sometimes have a WS of 4 in some editions. By comparison standard Space Marines had a WS of 4, Imperial Guardsmen WS 3, Ork boyz WS 4, and Space Marine heroes might reach WS 6 (depending on the edition).

So bloodletters of all kinds are absolutely highly-capable duellists, and equivalent or more proficient in melee combat than a typical Space Marine or Ork.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
So, yes, a bloodmaster would be prefectly capable of being a skilled duelist who sought out worthy foes to behead.

If anything that is exactly what they are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaredthefox92 wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, most lesser deamons, including the heralds, are within the normal human intelligence range, even if their somewhat myopically focused on what their gods want. even when they are in the throes of their battle rage, they are not just mindlessly hacking without skill, but fighting with all their intelligence. So, yes, a bloodmaster would be prefectly capable of being a skilled duelist who sought out worthy foes to behead.

Ah okay, that is what I was sort of thinking. I just wanted a reason for my Bloodmaster to be in charge and give them a bit of a personality. At least, one for a Chaos Daemon of Khorne. Mostly to personify my army a bit. I also noticed on stats that they have very good BS and attacks meaning they have to know how to swing better than your average Ork Boy with a choppa. If I wanted a pure mindless army I'd go with things like Nids or Necron warriors. I just like the concept that even for a daemon army there is some form of coordination amongst my ranks.

Indeed.

One thing that is somewhat glossed over is that Khorne has honor as one of his domains. Honorable combat is a focus of his. It is overshadowed by the blood and mindless slaughter, but its still there.

A Bloodmaster could be a highly honorable warrior who seeks out enemy champions. Those who are worthy gain his respect and he'll have a one v one duel with terms and such perhaps. Those who are unworthy will be butchered like animals of course, its all they deserve. But a worthy foe will be honored even in defeat, their skull placed with reverence before the Skull Throne.

It’s also worth noting that at least in early editions, a Bloodletters sword was an extension of its body, not something that can be picked up and put down. So you can’t disarm one without making a disarming by dismemberment.

Fun bit of super obscure Lore? Sometime in I think 3rd Ed, prior to the 3.5 Codex, there was a White Dwarf article with expanded, experimental rules for Daemons, and some nifty lore.

In that article, it posited that Daemons are so singular of purpose, they can’t comprehend anyone wouldn’t enjoy what it is they specialise in. They just lack that capacity. And so, one could argue Bloodletters lead an existence of mild disappointment that so few seem particularly willing to fight them, and when they do, they never seem to give it their all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
One thing that is somewhat glossed over is that Khorne has honor as one of his domains. Honorable combat is a focus of his. It is overshadowed by the blood and mindless slaughter, but its still there.

Is it still there, though? While I've not read any of the AOS... material on the topic, I can't recall the last time I remember reading anything connection Khorne with honour. 2nd ed Chaos 'dex, maybe?

While I'm not aware of it being actively removed, it certainly feels like an element that has been left to wither on the vine, so to speak.

Not entirely. It is the reason Khorne hates psykers for example.

There is also the duellist persona of Skulltaker as an exemplar of that, with the worthiest skulls added to his cloak.

I think the problem is GW largely only like to depict followers of the gods who are as far gone as can be. Oh for a story of a renegade chapter or a cult obsessed with martial honour and perfection who don't even know that they are worshipping Khorne

Dai wrote:
I think the problem is GW largely only like to depict followers of the gods who are as far gone as can be. Oh for a story of a renegade chapter or a cult obsessed with martial honour and perfection who don't even know that they are worshipping Khorne

There is definitely a loss of nuance to Chaos in line with the general flanderisation of 40k factions.

Except for Slannesh. They've got the opposite direction if anything

Bloodmasters are more often than not tasked with corralling other daemons, indicating a level of intelligence and foresight. Something also that many people forget that Bloodthirsters are also great generals and strategists. They are most often portrayed as single-minded destroyers, but except for Skarbrand who had all of his intelligence beaten out of him, most Bloodthirsters are just as skilled commanders as any human or Tau commander.