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I didn't see a dedicated Beastman thread here, so I'm starting one.

What are people's general thoughts here? I haven't played a single game yet, so I'm reserving my judgments. Watched some battle reports and the usual problems that we used to have seem to have persisted:

-Gors are still a middling unit that can neither take nor give a hit. It does seem that their special rules will help them do well on terrain-heavy boards, so perhaps that's what we should push for?

-Bestigors: similar problem in that heavy armor by itself just doesn't protect enough. Their great weapons are nice, but they lack the combination of WS/Init and/or #attacks to really see through solid damage output.

I'll be posting more/following up as I get some games in and/or do more theory-crafting.

I am building/painting a small army.

It seems like a super flexible army with lots and lots and lots of options and tactics: blocks, skirmishers, ambushers, big boys, fast, slow, even shooting (a couple of ungors raiders + 2 cygors + 2 shamans).

a 5+ armour save in TOW is decent, a lot of weapons doesnt have ap. dwarfs do have the same save of 5+ but can be given shield that give your a 4+ til your in combat and whant to use your great weapon.

Great Weapons don't make one Hit Last any more? Interesting.

 Charistoph wrote:
Great Weapons don't make one Hit Last any more? Interesting.

They still make you I1, but it’s now subject to modifiers, including the I bonus for charging or Elves’ bonus in the first round of combat.

So I've been looking at the standard infantry for Beastmen, and while I can certainly find a use for Gors, I'm still struggling with Bestigors.

Gors now get several special rules for this edition which really benefit them.

-bestial charge (if they charge 3", they get +1 str.) This is huge as Str 3 on Gors has plagued them over the various editions, and it allows Beastmen to leverage their improved movement score.
-horde. Allows big blobs to claim one more rank bonus than normal. Great for gors as they are cheap enough to be spamming big ranks.
-warband. This one is huge. You get a cumulative leadership bonus up to your current rank bonus, max of ldr. 10, and the ability to reroll charges. Beastmen have traditionally struggled over the years, as their low leadership meant they were sticking around even if they lose combat by 1 or 2, and their low strength meant they failed to push wounds through, furthering expanding the combat resolution divide.

combine all that with the new "break" rules (ie, give ground vs. fall back in good order vs. flee). Now, with the warband special rule, you can easily have a big block at leadership 10 (including the character), which means you're only truly fleeing on an 11 or 12 (which you can reroll with BSB). Far more likely to get "Fall Back in Good Order" results now, which prevent your unit from getting completely merc'd.

Bestigors, on the other hand, I just can't see a use for. They are a full-on middling unit with no stand-out abilities or good matchups that I can see.
-they have M: 5, which slightly outpaces normal troops, but is by no means fast.
-they have WS: 4, which is great, but will still have problems going into elite units with ws5 or higher, and certainly don't shine unless beating up hummies or orcs.
-they have Init: 4, which would be great, but all must have great weapons, plugging them back down to fighting last.
-they only have 1 attack.
-they have a 5+ armor save.

So I think in the end we have a unit that will generally strike last, and which, due to it's middling armor save will certainly have a reduced fighting rank, which is also too expensive to spam and thus gets little benefit from Warband. It will do badly into elites because it will be hitting on, at best 4's, and often 5's, will strike last and have limited attacks, which, because of it's base 1 attack, are already limited. It's not good into hordes because of it's limited attacks and often overkill against them. I think about the only thing it's good at are matchups into Orcs and Trolls.

Minotaurs. On the other hand, a spicy meatball I cooked up is concerning Minotaurs. Because of the way the "Motley Crew" rule works with armor saves, there's a bit of jank you can engineer here to your advantage. Depending on the size of the unit, what you will do here is take a bloodkine (if 3 man unit) or a bloodkine and Gorebull/Doombull (if 4-6 man unit). You want to get the bloodkine and character's armor save to 4+. Then you take 1 or 2 (again, depending on total unit size) of each of the follow outfits for your basic minotaurs: a set with xhw (or great weapons), and a set with shields. What you are aiming for is to have an equal number of models (1 or 2), each with a 4+ armor save, a 5+ armor save (light armor + shield), and a 6+ armor save (light armor). As there is no clear majority, you can elect the majority for your armor saves. So now you can take your armor saves on 4+ (3+ in shooting phase becuase you give the bloodkine and minotaur champ a shield as well), since the "majority" of your armor saves are 4+.

Thoughts on this list everyone?

===
Beastmen - 2k V6 [2000 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Beastmen Brayherds
===

++ Characters [526 pts] ++

Great Bray-Shaman [245 pts]
- Braystaff
- General
- On foot
- Lore Familiar
- Talisman of Protection
- Healing Potion
- Dark Magic

Doombull [281 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Heavy armour
- General
- Charmed Shield
- Dawnstone
- Gnarled Hide
- Uncanny Senses

++ Core Units [573 pts] ++

Tuskgor Chariots [85 pts]
- Bestigor Crew x 1 - Hand weapon and great weapons
- Gor Crew x 1 - Hand weapon and cavalry spear
- Tuskgor x 2 - Tusks (counts as hand weapon)

5 Minotaur Herd [288 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Light armour
- 5 Shield
- Bloodkine
- Standard bearer [War Banner]
- Musician

Tuskgor Chariot [85 pts]
- Bestigor Crew x 1 - Hand weapons
- Great weaponss
- Gor Crew x 1 - Hand weapon and cavalry spear
- Tuskgor x 2 - Hand weapon (tusks)

15 Gor Herd [115 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Additional hand weapons
- Standard bearer
- Musician

++ Special Units [647 pts] ++

3 Dragon Ogres [196 pts]
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour
- Shartak

3 Dragon Ogres [196 pts]
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour
- Shartak

Cockatrice [200 pts]
- Claws (counts as hand weapons)
- Petrifying gaze
- Scaly skin (counts as heavy armour)
- Acidic vomit
- Poisoned attacks

5 Harpies [55 pts]
- Hand weapons (claws)

++ Rare Units [254 pts] ++

Dragon Ogre Shaggoth [254 pts]
- Great weapon
- Light armour
- Magic items [The Blackened Plate]

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

Rocmistro wrote:

Bestigors, on the other hand, I just can't see a use for. They are a full-on middling unit with no stand-out abilities or good matchups that I can see.
-they have M: 5, which slightly outpaces normal troops, but is by no means fast.
-they have WS: 4, which is great, but will still have problems going into elite units with ws5 or higher, and certainly don't shine unless beating up hummies or orcs.
-they have Init: 4, which would be great, but all must have great weapons, plugging them back down to fighting last.
-they only have 1 attack.
-they have a 5+ armor save.

If Bestigors had halberds instead of great weapons they would go from meh/worst unit to probably best. What a subtle change, a man can dream...

Cockatrice, giant or Ghorgon to go with Shaggoth?

 nathan2004 wrote:
Cockatrice, giant or Ghorgon to go with Shaggoth?

Personally I'd go with the Cockatrice as it's a bit cheaper, has fly (giving beastmen some much needed speed), still causes Terror and has some other utility style attacks. Stony Stare could be great against certain types of knights.

Ghorgon has never done well for me in any edition.

Chaos Giant is reportedly good, but I don't like Giants in my beastman army (just personal aesthetic preference).

What’s the point of slaughter’s call? It doesn’t bestow frenzy and I guess if the doombull or gorebull rolled doubles on a primary fury test and then joined a unit of mino’s, they’d get frenzy. But it no longer just grants it right?

 nathan2004 wrote:
What’s the point of slaughter’s call? It doesn’t bestow frenzy and I guess if the doombull or gorebull rolled doubles on a primary fury test and then joined a unit of mino’s, they’d get frenzy. But it no longer just grants it right?

You could take the Berserker Blade, so the character starts frenzied letting you start the unit frenzied too. You give up a little on AP but you could still take Gouge Tusks for -1 and you still have the innate armourbane.

Ohhhh forgot there was a magic time that gave frenzy…thank you!

I tried it in my last game but I deployed them kind of poorly and they didn't end up seeing much action so can't speak to how effective it actually is.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Cockatrice, giant or Ghorgon to go with Shaggoth?

About the Cockatrice, once it is upgraded with Poison, I see no point of taking it over a Jabber-thing.

But with no upgrades, maybe it is worth it for a cheap source of flying terror...

Together with Centigors and Bestigors, the least appealing units of the army, IMO.

Have you tried taking smaller units of Dragon Ogres? They are slightly better than spawn (better armor and a more reliable stat line for about 10-15 more points). Snag a unit of 1, make it a champion, and have it hunt down war machines for 63-73 points. It can hurt monsters if you give it a great weapon (why not at base I2?).

Haven't played since early March due to health reasons, but my buddy swears by 1 Cygor. He said it is a fast moving beast that can fire its stone thrower on the move. Then he harasses wizards with it by moving it towards them. His goal is just to affect their game plan - i.e. Make them be less bold with their wizard and he said it's working for him. He lobs rocks to soften up a unit prior to getting his chariots or gors into them.

My buddy also uses a cheap cockatrice to hit flanks of units that are meant to grind out in combat. Against me his targets are either men at arms or bowmen. Usually the terror check hits me then he does his attack and kills the cheap troops with the intent that maybe he can force a panic. It's not great against elves or elite units but it is something to harass smaller elite units or war machines. It flies so should be able to get where you want it.

I've been using 1 man dragon ogres in my Warriors of Chaos army and I tossed a Shaggoth in there because back in 2009 it was my favorite model. I got his spell off once and it was fun having it affect 3 units (2 units of 1 champion and a unit of 3). I've not had major success with him in the sense he isn't an auto include but if you have several units of dragon ogres he is both a thematic choice and offers some synergy. I'm in the process of rebasing my AOS Beasts and am planning to pick up some chariots.