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The rules for Benefit of Cover state you can't get benefit of cover for 3+ vs AP0 from terrain.

Strats can give you the benefit of cover.

Can a Strat give the benefit of cover for 3+ vs AP0?

"Each time a ranged attack is allocated to model that has the benefit of cover, add 1....Models with save characteristics of 3+ or better cannot have the benefit of cover against attacks with an AP characteristic of 0".

Doesn't say it has to be from terrain. Just benefit of cover.

tneva82 wrote:
"Each time a ranged attack is allocated to model that has the benefit of cover, add 1....Models with save characteristics of 3+ or better cannot have the benefit of cover against attacks with an AP characteristic of 0".

Doesn't say it has to be from terrain. Just benefit of cover.

The mention for Terrain is earlier.

Edit to Add:

I figure it can be read one of two ways:

Tac Squads in Craters can't get BoC vs AP0, but Tac Squads who went to ground can (Because Go To Ground etc. skips over the qualifiers and just hands out BoC)

or:

Tac Squads who go to ground get BoC, but can't use it vs AP0. (Because GTG hands out BoC, but BoC can't be used vs AP0 by 3+

Neither of which is technically RAW.

"cannot have the benefit of cover" seems pretty clear to me.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
"cannot have the benefit of cover" seems pretty clear to me.

So does "has the benefit of cover". They fairly directly conflict. The question becomes does the Strat trump the Rule, or did they flub the writing?

Neither. The Unit has the benefit of cover, but no unit can utilize the benefit of cover (+1 Armor Save) if they are Sv 3+ or better against AP 0 attacks. They do get the benefit against AP -1 or better attacks.

Let me try this another way:

Strats are generally speaking limited ways of "breaking" the Core rules.

Core Rule: Model dies, remove model.

Strat: Model Dies, shoot or fight, then remove model.

Core Rule: Units arrive from Reserves during your Reserves step of your turn

Strat: Models arrive during your opponent's movement phase as if it was...

Core Rule: Cannot have vs AP0

Strat: Has Benefit.

I don't know which way they meant it, I think it's 50/50 and not clear at all. I'd like to see a FAQ hit it - but I doubt it's going to be relevant enough to make it on the FAQ.

Breton wrote:
Let me try this another way:

Strats are generally speaking limited ways of "breaking" the Core rules.

I'm going to stop you right here. This line of thinking is incorrect.

Stratagems do not break the Core rules. They are rules that allow you to do specific things at specific times or grant specific benefits at specific times. Command Re-roll does not break the rules. It allows you to re-roll specific rolls under specific circumstances. There are rules for re-rolls (you can only re-roll a roll once, the new result replaces the original one). Command Re-Roll cannot break those rules because it does contain an exception that allows it do so.

The same is true for any Stratagem or rule that grants the Benefit of Cover. They follow all the rules for Benefit of Cover unless they include a specific exception/modification to Benefit of Cover.

 alextroy wrote:

Breton wrote:
Let me try this another way:

Strats are generally speaking limited ways of "breaking" the Core rules.

I'm going to stop you right here. This line of thinking is incorrect.

Stratagems do not break the Core rules. They are rules that allow you to do specific things at specific times or grant specific benefits at specific times. Command Re-roll does not break the rules. It allows you to re-roll specific rolls under specific circumstances.

There are rules for re-rolls (you can only re-roll a roll once, the new result replaces the original one). Command Re-Roll cannot break those rules because it does contain an exception that allows it do so.

The same is true for any Stratagem or rule that grants the Benefit of Cover. They follow all the rules for Benefit of Cover unless they include a specific exception/modification to Benefit of Cover.

Core Rule: You roll a die. What you get is what you get.
Strat: You can reroll that Die.
Without the strat (or a bespoke which are basically strats on units) you can't reroll the die.

There is no Core Rule that gets you into a Re-Roll. There is no Core Rule that lets you just skip and declare you passed a Battle-Shock Test. There is no Core Rule that says your unit gets to fight out of turn during the Fight Phase. That Strats are designed to give players a limited ability to "break" the rules is pretty much axiomatic becasue if you could do it with just the Core Rules - you wouldn't need the Strat. Arguing against this just because you don't like how it may or may not apply (like I said I think its 50/50 and people calling it a slam dunk are lying to themselves) is also just fooling yourself - and setting a bad precedent.

It needs to explicitly break the rule, though.

A strat that gives cover can give it even when you’re not in terrain. But it’s the same as getting cover from terrain.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It needs to explicitly break the rule, though.

A strat that gives cover can give it even when you’re not in terrain. But it’s the same as getting cover from terrain.

That's why I say it's 50/50. I can read it as both explicitly and not explicitly. Its not exactly rare for GW to think what they meant is obvious as what we read. Especially on an edition change.

Here's another one:

Do Teleport Homers allow a Terminator Squad to teleport from Table Quarter A, to Table Quarter D? That used to be (part to most and even all of) how Teleport Homers worked. Now it is possibly to probably not. Of course without reading it that way, the purpose of a Homer is dubious. So were they planning on ripping the guts out of the teleport homer, or were they expecting us to patch together their intent allowing Terminators to teleport once across the battlefield to a specific location chosen before the battle even starts?

Teleport Homer allows you to use Rapid Ingress on the matched pair Terminator Unit using the Rapid Ingress Strat.
Rapid Ingress Strat occurs at the end of your opponent's movement phase.
You can't use Rapid Ingress to come in sooner, and you can't use it to come in closer.
Because its at the end of your opponent's movement phase, you can't use it to screen or avoid being Deep Strike Screened.

Did they mean to completely change and rip the guts out of the Teleport Homer, or did they mean for the Homer to modify the timing and/or eligible target of the Rapid Ingress Strat such that on your turn as-opposed-to/or after your opponent's movement phase a Teleport Homer linked unit can be picked up (as opoosed to needing to already be in Reserves) and "teleported" across the battlefield? Me, I suspect they meant a Teleport Homer allows you to Rapid Ingress a unit already on the board, but still at the end of your opponent's movement phase. All the bespoke does is make Terminators on the board a legal target when they otherwise wouldn't be.

It's pretty clear that a Homer works on a Reserve unit, not one on the table. It makes Rapid Ingress cost 0 CP for the unit coming in near it.

Likewise, look at the Vanguard Spearhead. That gives "Benefit of Cover" if the attacking unit is more than 12" away. Do you really think, that when GW has specifically made a change to not allow 3+ models to go to a 2+ save with cover, they'd then add a Detachment that does EXACTLY that?

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's pretty clear that a Homer works on a Reserve unit, not one on the table. It makes Rapid Ingress cost 0 CP for the unit coming in near it.

Its mostly clear that's the RAW but its not clear what the RAI is. I don't think GW intended to radically change and severely nerf the Teleport Homer. I think they intended to mash up the Bespoke and the Strat to recreate an amalgam of Previous and 9th Ed Teleport homer rules but failed. I think you're supposed (be able) to deploy the homer somewhere (like in Pre 9th) and you can teleport from where you are (On the tabletop) to the Homer (probably at the end of your opponent's movement phase) in a way that (mostly) recreates what it used to do in 9th only tied to the pre-placed stationary Homer token instead of any friendly unit you have on the battlefield. Without that interpretation Homers are mostly worth less than the ink costs to print the rule.

On your turn Terminators in Reserves can already teleport anywhere they could use a Homer, but nowhere beyond that.
On your Opponent's Movement phase, they can pay a CP or use a Terminator Captain 0CP to Teleport anywhere they could use a Homer but nowhere beyond that.
So:
IF you want to deepstrike on their turn, AND
IF you didn't take a Captain Leader, AND
IF you don't want to spend a CP, THEN
You can use one of the most niche rules ever.

Likewise, look at the Vanguard Spearhead. That gives "Benefit of Cover" if the attacking unit is more than 12" away. Do you really think, that when GW has specifically made a change to not allow 3+ models to go to a 2+ save with cover, they'd then add a Detachment that does EXACTLY that?

Actually I do, and that's an even better example of why - and the one I was trying to remember. I think its more likely they created an exception to the general rule than they added a Det Ability that doesn't do half its thing for most of your models against most of their models. Especially when you look at the other Dets. Weapons get ASSAULT. - weapons that are already Assault get BONUS. Weapons get HEAVY - weapons that are already HEAVY get BONUS. Just about everybody gets to charge after falling back or advancing. Every unit gets to reroll 1 (of potentially 3 different) rolls that are part of the attack sequence each phase, including the out of phase. And of course the prototype: You get a Doctrine, You get a Doctrine, Everybody get a Doctrine. I don't think they intended to create a Det that only applies its (full) rule to up to 3 squads of Not even BATTLELINE scouts vs most of the opponent army - especially compared to how much offense you're giving up for that bit of defense.

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
There is no Core Rule that gets you into a Re-Roll. There is no Core Rule that lets you just skip and declare you passed a Battle-Shock Test. There is no Core Rule that says your unit gets to fight out of turn during the Fight Phase. That Strats are designed to give players a limited ability to "break" the rules is pretty much axiomatic becasue if you could do it with just the Core Rules - you wouldn't need the Strat. Arguing against this just because you don't like how it may or may not apply (like I said I think its 50/50 and people calling it a slam dunk are lying to themselves) is also just fooling yourself - and setting a bad precedent.

No Core Rule that allows you to Re-Roll? Command Re-Roll is on page 41 of the Core Rules.

But that is neither here nor there. The rules in 10th Edition are written in such a way that all exceptions to the Core Rules must be explicitly stated. There are many rules that allow you to re-roll a roll. All of them are subject to the page 9 Re-Rolls rule. I can't think of one rule that doesn't follow the Core Rules without explicitly stating in what manner it modifies that rule.

This is why your 50/50 argument is falling flat on its face. This really is a slam dunk case of read the rules and follow them. A unit that has the Benefit of Cover does not gain said benefit against AP 0 attacks if it has a 3+ or better Save.

 alextroy wrote:

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
There is no Core Rule that gets you into a Re-Roll. There is no Core Rule that lets you just skip and declare you passed a Battle-Shock Test. There is no Core Rule that says your unit gets to fight out of turn during the Fight Phase. That Strats are designed to give players a limited ability to "break" the rules is pretty much axiomatic becasue if you could do it with just the Core Rules - you wouldn't need the Strat. Arguing against this just because you don't like how it may or may not apply (like I said I think its 50/50 and people calling it a slam dunk are lying to themselves) is also just fooling yourself - and setting a bad precedent.

No Core Rule that allows you to Re-Roll? Command Re-Roll is on page 41 of the Core Rules.

But that is neither here nor there. The rules in 10th Edition are written in such a way that all exceptions to the Core Rules must be explicitly stated. There are many rules that allow you to re-roll a roll. All of them are subject to the page 9 Re-Rolls rule. I can't think of one rule that doesn't follow the Core Rules without explicitly stating in what manner it modifies that rule.

This is why your 50/50 argument is falling flat on its face. This really is a slam dunk case of read the rules and follow them. A unit that has the Benefit of Cover does not gain said benefit against AP 0 attacks if it has a 3+ or better Save.

What page of what book is Go To Ground on? Do you think that makes it pretty clear I was separating even the Core book strats from the Core Rules that would apply without a Strat interrupting the flow?

And there are strats that "break" the Core Rules - even strats in the Core Book - without explicitly stating they do. Counter-Offensive says your unit fights next. The Core book says Fights First Units (including ones that charged) fight before everyone else. Counter Offensive doesn't say Your Unit fights next, even if other Fights First Units Remain. They also didn't say "After an enemy unit fights, before choosing the next unit, give one of your engaged units Fights First or Your Unit fights next, even before other Fights First units. They didn't do either, so by the same theory you can't use the strat until all the Fights First units are done in the Fights First Step.

You can't exclude part of the Core Rules from the Core Rules. Stratagems in general and the Core Rules Stratagems are part of the Core Rules. Thinking of them as not Core Rules is leading you to the thought that they break the Core Rules. It is a faulty thought pattern.

For example, rule for when you can use Counter-Offensive is "Fight phase, just after an enemy unit has fought." There is no stipulation in this rule that you can't use it during the Fight First section of the Fight Phase. You can do so because after a unit fights during the Fight First section of the Fight Phase is "Fight phase, just after an enemy unit has fought." The effect is to target a unit in your army that is in Engagement Range of Enemy Units that has been selected to fight yet this phase and then have that unit fight next. The effect is simple, direct, and not open to interpretation. GW has seen it as so self-evident that there is no FAQ, Rules Commentary, nor Rules Errata to clarify it.

 alextroy wrote:
You can't exclude part of the Core Rules from the Core Rules. Stratagems in general and the Core Rules Stratagems are part of the Core Rules. Thinking of them as not Core Rules is leading you to the thought that they break the Core Rules. It is a faulty thought pattern.

For example, rule for when you can use Counter-Offensive is "Fight phase, just after an enemy unit has fought." There is no stipulation in this rule that you can't use it during the Fight First section of the Fight Phase. You can do so because after a unit fights during the Fight First section of the Fight Phase is "Fight phase, just after an enemy unit has fought." The effect is to target a unit in your army that is in Engagement Range of Enemy Units that has been selected to fight yet this phase and then have that unit fight next. The effect is simple, direct, and not open to interpretation. GW has seen it as so self-evident that there is no FAQ, Rules Commentary, nor Rules Errata to clarify it.

Yes, I can exclude the Stratagems from the Core Rules when I've pretty obviously defined the Core Rules as the rule flow that occurs when stratagems aren't used. This is the second time I've explained it to you, and even then it was fairly obvious. Semantics aren't part of a decent discussion.

The Fight Phase is divided into Steps. Step One is Units With Fights First.

1. FIGHTS FIRST
In this step, all eligible units with the Fights First ability fight
(pg 33-36). Remember that this will include units that made a
Charge move this turn and that have a Charge bonus (pg 29).

2. REMAINING COMBATS
In this step, all remaining eligible units fight. This includes any
units with the Fights First ability that were not eligible to fight
at the start of the Fight phase, but have since become eligible
to fight

Counter-Offensive does not give your unit Fights First, and does not specifically override the Fights First requirement, so it's not an eligible target in the Fights First step, unless it already has Fights First. According to your logic you cannot use Counter-Offensive on a unit that does not have Fights First until Step 2. Remaining Combatants.

Nope. You a try and twist logic all you want, but it doesn't work that way. Counter-Offensive clearly states what the eligible targets are and the effect it has on them. You cannot select a unit to fight during the the Fight First part of the Fight Phase, but you are not doing that with Counter-Offensive.

GW could have had the effect of Counter-Offensive be this unit gains Fight First until the end of the Phase and more or less made the effect the same. But that doesn't change the clear meaning of your unit fights next.

 alextroy wrote:
Nope. You a try and twist logic all you want, but it doesn't work that way. Counter-Offensive clearly states what the eligible targets are and the effect it has on them. You cannot select a unit to fight during the the Fight First part of the Fight Phase, but you are not doing that with Counter-Offensive.

GW could have had the effect of Counter-Offensive be this unit gains Fight First until the end of the Phase and more or less made the effect the same. But that doesn't change the clear meaning of your unit fights next.

I'm not the one twisting the logic.

If you can't give a unit BOC because they're 3+ vs AP0 you can't select a unit without Fights First in the Fights First phase both because it doesn't specifically override

Except one specifically overrides.
The other does not.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Except one specifically overrides.
The other does not.

Which one specifically overrides what, and where does it do so?

The Fights First step says its for units with Fights First. Counter-Offensive doesn't give Fights First, and it doesn't (specifically and as an extra point) override needing Fights First. Pick-A-Source says the unit gets the Benefit of Cover. But it doesn't specifically override the 3+ vs AP0. Its the same decision tree.

Either
(Strat/Ability) bypasses the requirement(s) by explicitly stating (Ability that would be prevented by the normal rules flow)
or
(Strat/Ability) specifically states (Unit) gets (Ability that would be prevented by normal rules flow) but unit cannot get (Ability) because (strat/Ability) didn't specifically mention (in spite of normal rules flow).

Tactical Squad can get Benefit of Cover because AP -1 (and better) is able to be used by them.
Assault Squad can fight next because Counter-Offensive can also be used in the 2. Remaining Combats step.

Seems resolved to me, so we're done here.