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First off I appreciate there is the ability to add specific units to lists to make them specific chapters.

But

You can make a list of exactly the same units (intercessors aggressors blade guard desolation squads terminators etc) and they can be ultramarines raven guard space wolves salamanders white scars imp fists etc.
The character of different chapters is missing more and more from modern lists.
Yes you can take crusader squads for BT or blood claws and grey hunters for SW but they are increasingly rare to see. And more expensive to buy

That's not really a background Problem is it? Because in the background these are still there.
It'll also be a problem that's going to be solved within a couple of editions when you get Primaris unit with space wolves hat. We're talking about Space Marines here, not factions that could actually need some attention .
In the meantime you can still buy the classic units... did they discontinue any chapter specific kits?

In the beginning space marine chapters were just different paint schemes. Nine editions later and we are back where we started. It's better for the kiddies this way.

This is how space marines were for 20+ years, and was how they should have remained. Salamanders don't refuse to field skimmers and flyers, Raven Guard don't jettison all their tanks into a hard vaccuum.

The "each chapter is all one trope and never anything else" aspect was dumb and should die.

 morganfreeman wrote:
This is how space marines were for 20+ years, and was how they should have remained. Salamanders don't refuse to field skimmers and flyers, Raven Guard don't jettison all their tanks into a hard vaccuum.

The "each chapter is all one trope and never anything else" aspect was dumb and should die.

Yeah, this. The one that always got me in particular was White Scars. Fully codex compliant, but somehow everyone rode bikes. Because... all those tac, dev and assault squads just gathered dust and were completely useless in the kind of fights that space marines engaged in (which largely aren't road races). Boarding actions, sieges, drop pod assaults on command centers, etc, etc... all solved with... bikes.

They're all operating out of the same strategic manual, for pity's sake.

Special snowflake marines bloated the game out of all proportion, and i say that as someone who started with Dark Angels (in RT) and shifted to Space Woofs in 2nd (and walked away from the latter when they went full Flanderization in later editions).

For a real a squad level skirmish game, focused on individual members, like kill team or necromunda, that kind of hyper focus can work. But its just more pointless nobs to twist and track for a company level game like 40k.

a bike is going to be a bike whether a White Scars marine or Ultra marine. i think unique units can be cool and thematic, but there's diminishing returns. see: Space Wolves

 Arschbombe wrote:
In the beginning space marine chapters were just different paint schemes. Nine editions later and we are back where we started. It's better for the kiddies this way.

Even in the beginning Chapters were different. UM got Veteran Tacs, BA got Veteran Assaults and boxer Dreads, DA got Veteran Terminators and Gunboat Dreads, Space Wolves got Veteran Devastators and Bjorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
This is how space marines were for 20+ years, and was how they should have remained. Salamanders don't refuse to field skimmers and flyers, Raven Guard don't jettison all their tanks into a hard vaccuum.

The "each chapter is all one trope and never anything else" aspect was dumb and should die.

Yeah, this. The one that always got me in particular was White Scars. Fully codex compliant, but somehow everyone rode bikes. Because... all those tac, dev and assault squads just gathered dust and were completely useless in the kind of fights that space marines engaged in (which largely aren't road races).

Blame the player for that one, not the rules. WS were Bikes and Mechanized Infantry. Sure they had bikes, but they also had their Tacs and Devs etc inside Rhinos and Razorbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 morganfreeman wrote:
This is how space marines were for 20+ years, and was how they should have remained. Salamanders don't refuse to field skimmers and flyers, Raven Guard don't jettison all their tanks into a hard vaccuum.

The "each chapter is all one trope and never anything else" aspect was dumb and should die.

Except again they weren't one trope. They were each a combination of 2-3 focusing "tropes".

BA were Assaults, Dreads, Libbies - with tertiaries into Speeders/Supercharged Engines etc
DA were the two Wings, Plasma with tertiaries into Gunboat Dreads
Imperial Fists were Seige, Bolt weapons, etc.
Salamanders were Flamers, Meltas, Thunderhammers, Master Crafted.
UM were (Demi-) Companies, Command Squads, Kitchen Sinks

Breton wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 morganfreeman wrote:
This is how space marines were for 20+ years, and was how they should have remained. Salamanders don't refuse to field skimmers and flyers, Raven Guard don't jettison all their tanks into a hard vaccuum.

The "each chapter is all one trope and never anything else" aspect was dumb and should die.

Except again they weren't one trope. They were each a combination of 2-3 focusing "tropes".

BA were Assaults, Dreads, Libbies - with tertiaries into Speeders/Supercharged Engines etc
DA were the two Wings, Plasma with tertiaries into Gunboat Dreads
Imperial Fists were Seige, Bolt weapons, etc.
Salamanders were Flamers, Meltas, Thunderhammers, Master Crafted.
UM were (Demi-) Companies, Command Squads, Kitchen Sinks

You're not understanding the OP.

Yes, the various chapters had tropes they leaned into. BA liked jumpy assault, WS liked bikes, DA liked bikes and terminators (often times one or the other). But the baseline for each of those chapters, and their associated codex, was just the standard marine codex. My DA books from 3rd and 4th edition, which I still have, have every single 'standard' unit present in them, and rather than having stat blocks they actually tell you to refer to the basic SM codex. Then ontop of that they'll have some special rules and a unique unit or two.

What OP is complaining about is how you can take a collection of baseline units from the normal marine codex - some blade guard, intercessors, aggressors, so on and so forth - and play them as any chapter you like. Which is exactly how it was for multiple decades.

The chapters as fully independent codex' which are have their own flavor of everything is a recent development, and is the wrong direction in which to take the game. A marine is a marine is a marine. Assassination and subterfuge may be the watch-words of the Raven Guard, but they use those tools to facilitate sudden and overwhelming decapitation strikes; the sort of thing which works really well by deploying some heavy unsubtle units. BA may really like fire and jump packs, but they never stopped fielding standard tactical squads / intercessors and non-libby / furioso dreadnoughts. The famous chapter tactics and such should be flavorful enhancements to encourage some stuff, but not make others worthless. And more-over (almost) all chapters use eachother's tactics; RG aren't the guys with stealth and WS aren't the only bikers. So having chapter themed but alignment agnostic ways to access rules which enhance various aspects is probably the best way to do it.

Short of removing any kind of chapter benefits and making chapter representation entirely up to players via painting and lists. I think that's the best solution and strongly encourage it, but I also doubt we'll see it.

What OP is complaining about is how you can take a collection of baseline units from the normal marine codex - some blade guard, intercessors, aggressors, so on and so forth - and play them as any chapter you like. Which is exactly how it was for multiple decades.

The chapters as fully independent codex' which are have their own flavor of everything is a recent development, and is the wrong direction in which to take the game

1. what he is complaining about is that is the ONLY way you play them now because it is not a wargame it is a card game with tokens. so you take the best tokens and paint them whichever color because it doesn't matter.

2. during rouge trader and second edition the game was still developing it's lore. 3rd edition 1998-2004 is where everything was set in stone by the original design team on this second point you are completely wrong. chapters with their own flavor was laid down in 3rd edition. it is not new and it is not the wrong direction. because the game was made to be about epic battles in the setting of the 40K universe. not chess or generic balanced battle game X.

If anything the current version of the game is the abomination.

To this point every separate marine codex-
.blood angels
.dark angels
.black templar
.space wolves
and the FW special chapters as well as the original index astartes chapter special rules such as white scars (who incidentally actually do not have devastator squads in the normal sense of a codex compliant chapter as they mount all of their 9th company brethren on attack bikes or have them drive predators/vindicators)

were separate because they were not codex compliant.

codex compliant chapters such as raven guard, salamanders etc... were all in codex space marines along with the base line ultras because they were codex compliant in structure even if they had a preference for a slightly different weapon loadout or deployment method.

 Corennus wrote:
First off I appreciate there is the ability to add specific units to lists to make them specific chapters.

But

You can make a list of exactly the same units (intercessors aggressors blade guard desolation squads terminators etc) and they can be ultramarines raven guard space wolves salamanders white scars imp fists etc.
The character of different chapters is missing more and more from modern lists.
Yes you can take crusader squads for BT or blood claws and grey hunters for SW but they are increasingly rare to see. And more expensive to buy

Funny. Marines working like in background. Bohoo. Power gamers missing free bonus rules. I weep...not.

 aphyon wrote:

What OP is complaining about is how you can take a collection of baseline units from the normal marine codex - some blade guard, intercessors, aggressors, so on and so forth - and play them as any chapter you like. Which is exactly how it was for multiple decades.

The chapters as fully independent codex' which are have their own flavor of everything is a recent development, and is the wrong direction in which to take the game

1. what he is complaining about is that is the ONLY way you play them now because it is not a wargame it is a card game with tokens. so you take the best tokens and paint them whichever color because it doesn't matter.

2. during rouge trader and second edition the game was still developing it's lore. 3rd edition 1998-2004 is where everything was set in stone by the original design team on this second point you are completely wrong. chapters with their own flavor was laid down in 3rd edition. it is not new and it is not the wrong direction. because the game was made to be about epic battles in the setting of the 40K universe. not chess or generic balanced battle game X.

If anything the current version of the game is the abomination.

To this point every separate marine codex-
.blood angels
.dark angels
.black templar
.space wolves
and the FW special chapters as well as the original index astartes chapter special rules such as white scars (who incidentally actually do not have devastator squads in the normal sense of a codex compliant chapter as they mount all of their 9th company brethren on attack bikes or have them drive predators/vindicators)

were separate because they were not codex compliant.

codex compliant chapters such as raven guard, salamanders etc... were all in codex space marines along with the base line ultras because they were codex compliant in structure even if they had a preference for a slightly different weapon loadout or deployment method.

Salamanders are easily as non-compliant as White Scars or Blood Angels with the Codex. They had 7 companies of 12 squads, with an extra tactical and devastator squad per company and very limited fast attack elements in reserve. Their chapter master is also their first captain. Frankly, the Blood Angels are very codex-compliant, only their Death company is an aberration made necessary by The Flaw. Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard with fancy gear.

White Scars probably can field something equivalent to devastators if forced to. We know they will sometimes fight in boarding actions or underhives or other dense terrain if circumstances dictate. Sometimes there is no way to increase mobility beyond using legs. In those circumstances, I could see the attack bike crews forgoing the bikes and taking heavy weapons out of the armoury. Whilst culturally the White Scars view dreadnoughts with disgust, it is quite possible that they even have a few such interred brothers held in the armouries, a sort of horror of the Chapter that is only released for circumstances like those mentioned above. I would be surprised if no White Scars ended up in dreadnoughts over the 10000 years since they began recruiting from Chogoris.

Of course, in the 3rd edition paradigm, such a force could be facilitated by simply not using the White Scars variant list and sticking to the core Space Marine codex.

Edit: I am aware that Index Astartes states the White Scars do not use devastators or dreadnoughts. But 40k lore rarely holds to absolutes across 10000 years of in-setting lore. Devastators in particular are a fairly simple structural adjustment for a Chapter as flexible as the White Scars, if they are needed for the situation at hand.

 Corennus wrote:
First off I appreciate there is the ability to add specific units to lists to make them specific chapters.

But

You can make a list of exactly the same units (intercessors aggressors blade guard desolation squads terminators etc) and they can be ultramarines raven guard space wolves salamanders white scars imp fists etc.
The character of different chapters is missing more and more from modern lists.
Yes you can take crusader squads for BT or blood claws and grey hunters for SW but they are increasingly rare to see. And more expensive to buy

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/812953.page
Subject: is it just me or is 10th edition heavily sanitized?

I think the problem that James Workshop has is making the chapters *too* generic... BuuUUUuuut: I really started playing in 3rd Ed. and there were multiple codexes and the ability to run different chapters/ klans/ septs/ craftworlds, etc in each army. Rather than people using it for background purposes, it was very "Beardy" and lead to min/maxing lists that would make NO sense from a lore POV, but would allow you to have a mish-mash of all your best.
One thing I'd like that GW doesn't touch on very much are the "renegade/ living on the edge" chapters like the Ashen Claws or Charcaradons. In lore, these chapters would not really have Primaris marines, as they don't get official materiel from the Imperium on a regular basis. But, Space Sharks are popular- so we get a grey color scheme primaris marine with the symbol on his shoulder.
Meta standpoint, GW wants to sell more newer minis so it looks like firstborn will eventually be phased out- but this gets problems like the Death Company SM of Blood Angels. Lorewise- I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and Cawl's maybe-kinda-almost-definatley heresy of using Traitor geneseed in Primaris to rear it's ugly head. A lot has been emphasized on firstborn being tested as kids for not only physical flaws, but mental and spiritual ones- the clones get hypno-indoctrination, but just maybe the whole test tube baby thing means they don't have a soul. Wouldn't be the first time an Imperium decision regarding anti-Chaos comes back to bite them in the ass...

Frankly, the Blood Angels are very codex-compliant, only their Death company is an aberration made necessary by The Flaw. Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard with fancy gear

They are in fact absolutely not. only the 8th company is equipped with entirely jump packs or set up for close support the 2nd through 7 companies are battle line/tactical with a little support from the 8th and 9th companies (devs/assault). however the BA tend to run them as entire companies of jump infantry. additionally they run heavy armor in their elite formations instead of a support role. that isn't even taking into account the death company.

Salamanders are easily as non-compliant as White Scars or Blood Angels with the Codex. They had 7 companies of 12 squads, with an extra tactical and devastator squad per company and very limited fast attack elements in reserve.

If you remember your official lore they were given special exemption by Roboute Guilliman because of damage they took during the horus heresy specifically isstavan to have a smaller than normal force but they still deploy in the same codex compliant manner.

Rather than people using it for background purposes, it was very "Beardy" and lead to min/maxing lists that would make NO sense from a lore POV,

That's true of every wargame system ever made. because people play it and if you play with GAK players you will run into that.

It is why building communities of like minded players is so important. if you like power gaming and you find a bunch of friends that are into that then it is no harm no foul. but if you want to play the setting as intended it is a very different experience.

I have to admit the blandification of space marines has gone too far, they really should have leaned even more into the differences and entirely done away with the Codex compliance after Guiliman returned, doubly so now the Lion is back, like hell would he abide by that rule in current 40k seeing the state the Imperium is in.

I am not talking about the flanderisation like Space Dogos, they should lean into the Viking theme for Space wolves not the dog soldiers theme, Dark Angels should get strange tech, Salamanders should get their Thallax they still have in the background.

 aphyon wrote:

Frankly, the Blood Angels are very codex-compliant, only their Death company is an aberration made necessary by The Flaw. Sanguinary Guard are just Honour Guard with fancy gear

They are in fact absolutely not. only the 8th company is equipped with entirely jump packs or set up for close support the 2nd through 7 companies are battle line/tactical with a little support from the 8th and 9th companies (devs/assault). however the BA tend to run them as entire companies of jump infantry. additionally they run heavy armor in their elite formations instead of a support role. that isn't even taking into account the death company.

Salamanders are easily as non-compliant as White Scars or Blood Angels with the Codex. They had 7 companies of 12 squads, with an extra tactical and devastator squad per company and very limited fast attack elements in reserve.

If you remember your official lore they were given special exemption by Roboute Guilliman because of damage they took during the horus heresy specifically isstavan to have a smaller than normal force but they still deploy in the same codex compliant manner.

[

Eh?

The Blood Angels have a veteran company, 4 battle companies, 4 reserve companies, and a scout company like other Codex chapters. I did forget that they have two assault reserves and only one tactical reserve in contrast to the typical 2 tactical and 1 assault, but otherwise their chapter structure is very similar to a codex chapter. Their armoured units are still part of the armoury and attached as necessary to company formations. The death company is obviously different but also something of a necessity.

By contrast, the Salamanders organisation is much more different to a standard codex chapter. It may have been given special dispensation by Guilliman, but it still conforms to Salamanders pre-Heresy doctrine with a heavy preference towards firepower and durability over mobile fast attack elements.

 morganfreeman wrote:
This is how space marines were for 20+ years, and was how they should have remained. Salamanders don't refuse to field skimmers and flyers, Raven Guard don't jettison all their tanks into a hard vaccuum.

The "each chapter is all one trope and never anything else" aspect was dumb and should die.

Agreed - especially since the one army that was a thousand different things with a vast difference between regiments was Imperial Guard and that just became Cadians.

 Haighus wrote:
with a heavy preference towards firepower and durability over mobile fast attack elements.

You mean like the preference BA have towards mobile fast attack over firepower and durability? I'm not sure how codex compliant a chapter (Outside UM successors) is matters. I mean even the UM weren't Codex Compliant with their Tyrannic War Vets. And we now have a bunch of units that are 3 or 3/6 instead of 5 or 5/10 causing all sorts of issues for the Codex.

In theory The Flaw is the entire reason the BA are not Codex Compliant while appearing to the outside world that they are. BA don't march their Death Company around in front of God and Everybody. Just like DA don't go telling secrets. And both have a doomsday-reform-the-legion plan which is most definitely NOT Codex Complaint.

a doomsday-reform-the-legion plan

What is this reform the legion you speak of? All the unforgiven "chapters" answer to the supreme grand master Azrael

Kay- we can fix all of this with one thing: GW brings back Legion of the Damned.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
Kay- we can fix all of this with one thing: GW brings back Legion of the Damned.

Meh, I'm all for bringing back Legion of the Damned especially the One Super Squad Loyalist Rubrics with Invuln version but its not going to fix everything.

Going with the old Background, all Marine Chapters are true to the Codex except Space Wolves and Black Templar, as those 2 handle their recruits differently

Space Wolves got their trainees into Power Armour and the Scouts are the veterans, while BT have combined units

Blood Angels are different because their gene-seed is degrading and they randomly go mad because of the psionic death scream of their Primarch
Dark Angels are different because they had heretics with their chapter and hunt them down, therefore having special hunting chapters that are combined/connected across the successors


Now with the new background and the changes made by Cawl and the returning Primarchs, Blood Angles are not special any more as their problem was solved
and the Lion cleared up his chapter and removed the special aspect as well
leaving Space Wolves as the only ones as their recruits should still be in power armour but primaris do not work that way so their special thing is gone too

so if rules be true to the background there should be only 1 Codex SM covering all of them with special units being in name/appearance only
but I guess someone in the marketing got cold feet and reversed some changes so that we still get a book for everything

Viewing the character of different Chapters purely in terms of whether they get/don't get super special unique units/options for no reason is engaging with them in only the most superficial way possible.

 Haighus wrote:


I did forget that they have two assault reserves

It could be forgot or it might not be forgetting. Codex Angels of Death and 2010 Codex Blood Angels give them the normal Ultramarines reserve companies. As far as I know the current situation of seventh company is brand new since indomitus. If it is a ret-con, or if it is an in-setting change Dante made around devastation of baal, I don't know

That's perfect for the topic, because they are 3-D characters who think of themselves as the same kind of professionals soldiery as other Chapters, and deliberately follow the same pattern as other Chapters. It's just that they have a pathological behavior, a character foible, so they compulsively want to wear the jump packs and always think first of using the jump packs and compete with each other to be in the limited jump pack spots. They're trying to be normal, and have a hard time. That's character.

Specifically that 2010 Codex blood angels is the one that allowed them to use assault squads as troops, but also says that they have the exact same number of assault squadsas Ultramarines. Their extreme use of jump pack squads is behavioural, not something they formalize.

 aphyon wrote:

If you remember your official lore they were given special exemption by Roboute Guilliman because of damage they took during the horus heresy specifically isstavan to have a smaller than normal force but they still deploy in the same codex compliant manner.

It might be more about the number of chapters and not the size. Allen Merret wrote that out of the 1000 chapters, there are over 100 Codex chapters and that in universe the highest estimate is nearly 300. In that case nobody needed special exemption for that 7 company structure. The closest thing to an exemption that line between Guilliman and Vulkan talks about is not fissioning that legion at the second founding. It sounds like they could have been large for a chapter at first, and attrited down to their desired size over time.







[

 aphyon wrote:

a doomsday-reform-the-legion plan

What is this reform the legion you speak of? All the unforgiven "chapters" answer to the supreme grand master Azrael

Which is an interesting issue. The Lion never agreed to Guilliman’s reforms, on account of being in stasis, presumed dead.

Given the state of Imperium Nihilus and the Dark Angel geneseed known to be noticably stable? The Lion could be within his rights to build to Legion size, recruits and materiel allowing. Single force, single supreme commander, at least for the time being in order to start stabilising the region. Codex Compliance can always come later.

 kodos wrote:

Now with the new background and the changes made by Cawl and the returning Primarchs, Blood Angles are not special any more as their problem was solved

There's a Death Company Intercessors kit. It's just intercessors with the BA primaris upgrade sprue thrown in, but its existence points to the flaw not being solved.

The Black Rage being cured was the same sort of wishy-washy plot non-development as 'ooh maybe the Dark Angels don't trust Primaris'.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Now with the new background and the changes made by Cawl and the returning Primarchs, Blood Angles are not special any more as their problem was solved

There's a Death Company Intercessors kit. It's just intercessors with the BA primaris upgrade sprue thrown in, but its existence points to the flaw not being solved.

That's because there was a revolt that made them retcon Cawl. if you remember in the original release not only did he magically pull supper advanced tech out of his many orifices in a setting where the imperium was stagnant and regressive to a fault. but he did so enmass while also outdoing the emperor in the design, creation, and numbers of super space marines all by himself with no help. including fixing all the gene flaws of the various chapters of renown.

I am not up to date what get retconned after the retcon and than changed again

But it is not consistent, like the flaws of some chapters were removed, while others are not and it is more like whatever fits selling another box

40k lives from the background written long time ago, if you remove the legacy there is just boring stuff left

 kodos wrote:
Going with the old Background, all Marine Chapters are true to the Codex except Space Wolves and Black Templar, as those 2 handle their recruits differently

Space Wolves got their trainees into Power Armour and the Scouts are the veterans, while BT have combined units

Blood Angels are different because their gene-seed is degrading and they randomly go mad because of the psionic death scream of their Primarch
Dark Angels are different because they had heretics with their chapter and hunt them down, therefore having special hunting chapters that are combined/connected across the successors


Now with the new background and the changes made by Cawl and the returning Primarchs, Blood Angles are not special any more as their problem was solved

No it wasn't. They still have the Red Thirst and the Black Rage - even among their Primaris marines.

and the Lion cleared up his chapter and removed the special aspect as well

Again, no. The ones who didn't go too far, and are willing to come back are now ICC. Not all of them didn't go too far. And not all of them are willing to come back, so DA will still have their secrets.

leaving Space Wolves as the only ones as their recruits should still be in power armour but primaris do not work that way so their special thing is gone too

so if rules be true to the background there should be only 1 Codex SM covering all of them with special units being in name/appearance only
but I guess someone in the marketing got cold feet and reversed some changes so that we still get a book for everything